Question for NightEternal

StormyOne said:

sure there is... you do what you are doing.... take the good and leave the bad.... simple as that.... and I agree, I have never advocated an all or nothing approach... never made sense to me....

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I think the difference is that you do not tell people you still accept EGW and wonder why they are bashing you. If Night accepts her as having pastoral authority that boils down to a rejection of the fundamental belief.

NightEternal said:

nor do I accept the guilt by association.

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If you support the organization by your time talents and money then it is not just association. If you contribute financially then you contribute to all the projects of the GC.

It is an issue. No church is going to use its money correctly all the time. And I am glad you write to object to their abuse. But do they show any signs of changing their practice? You have a thread documenting their re-doubled efforts.

This is what formers struggled with. We would rather see the church change. But they show no sings of change.

tall73 said:

The big deal is that you are supporting an organization which promotes a far different view of her to many people including children who will not read as discerningly. You may not feel that way about it. But I just don't really understand it.

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Tall, from my perspective, you seem to be having a similar belief-centric conversation outside of the Adventist church you had inside of it. I would be interested in also hearing about how you know God.

tall73 said:

How do you respond to a system that is leading people the wrong direction? How do you deal with a prophet once you decide that she is not really a prophet? Yet she still runs the church from the grave.

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Powerful statements, and the crux of the reality.

tall73 said:

If you support the organization by your time talents and money then it is not just association. If you contribute financially then you contribute to all the projects of the GC.

It is an issue. No church is going to use its money correctly all the time. And I am glad you write to object to their abuse. But do they show any signs of changing their practice? You have a thread documenting their re-doubled efforts.

This is what formers struggled with. We would rather see the church change. But they show no sings of change.

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I understand and agree to some extent. But will you apply this to the larger Christian community? The number of atrocities that have been committed by this community since its beginning . . . wow.

Avonia said:

I understand and agree to some extent. But will you apply this to the larger Christian community? The number of atrocities that have been committed by this community since its beginning . . . wow.

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And here you come to a complication in the issue. Is it the belief system itself that gives rise to this or power structures/organizations? The Adventist church is both--a belief system and a structure, and it is also a part of Christianity.

Is it necessary to leave the beliefs of Christianity because an institution behaves poorly? I don't think so.

Is it necessary to leave the BELIEFS of Adventism if Adventism behaves badly. I don't think that is necessarily true either. But I do wonder at what point I should stop supporting a system. Is it the first sign of issues--no, then I could never belong to any group. Is it when the main point is compromised? To me that is a good indication. If Adventism has compromised the main point then for me it is time to leave.

I am trying to figure out what that threshold is for others.

Avonia said:

Tall, from my perspective, you seem to be having a similar belief-centric conversation outside of the Adventist church you had inside of it. I would be interested in also hearing about how you know God.

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Indeed, I am still discussing beliefs. Beliefs themselves do not form the basis of knowing God. But I do believe that God has revealed Himself through the Scriptures. I am not saying He is limited only to that. But if He revealed Himself through the Scriptures I want to know what He revealed.

He did not reveal Himself in systematic theological fashion or a list of beliefs, but through the experience of people over time. But within that record there are beliefs set out.

tall73 said:

How do you respond to a system that is leading people the wrong direction?

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That is also true of Christianity. The very essence of Christian doctrine denies the truth of Creation reflected in the Genesis story. If you believe what Christianity teaches about individual salvation you are also going in the wrong direction.

If you tell people that you have not rejected EGW, etc. then what idea do you think they get from that? Your view is not anything like the actual fundamental belief.

At this point I could play hair-splitting semantic games, because technically the fundamental only says 'a continuing source of authourity'-a case could be made that only pastoral authourity can be held to and still not be violating the fundamental. However, I would rather just say you are probably right and I that I have no problems taking a position different than the fundamental.

But then again, if this is the standard being put forth, Graeme Bradford is also in the same boat I am in and he is still a member in good standing as far as I know.

Now I have no problem with a realistic portrayal of EGW's writings. And I appreciate that you do paint a realistic portrayal. But then you wonder why the trads attack you for your view. I can see why they might. You do not really accept EGW as a prophet of any sort but as a pastor.

I regard her as a messenger of the Lord with some things to say that are worth hearing. I do not regard her as a prophet in the sense of Old Testament prophets, and I certainly do not consider her to have even remotely the same level of authourity.

If that places me in violation of the fundamentals, so be it. I accept that. My conscience and integrity is more important than assenting to a fundamental.

I am not trying to just pile on you. You can hold whatever view you want, and I certainly don't feel you are going to hell for it. But I don't personally get it.

And I am not going to be bothered if you don't. I am not trying to convince you of anything Tall.

Maybe it doesn't make sense, but it is what it is.

tall73 said:

I think the difference is that you do not tell people you still accept EGW and wonder why they are bashing you. If Night accepts her as having pastoral authority that boils down to a rejection of the fundamental belief.

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As far as I know, Stormy still considers her inspired. At least I have not read him state otherwise since I have interacted with him.

It could be that I missed it though.

As for the Trads and thier bashing, I am at the point now where I have stopped wondering why they do what they do. Furthermore, I am no longer going to try and make sense of thier actions and cultish mindset, because they are so foreign to me that they are not worth the time or effort to analyze in any detail. It is not a place I desire to explore at all. I will leave that mess for the psychoanalysts and psychiatrists to untangle.

Having said that, it still is not a lot of fun to endure. Contrary to popular belief, I do not feed off of conflict, nor do I go out of my way to invite it. But I know when dealing with the EGW issue, it will come whether I want it to or not, so I have to be prepared for the onslaught of hate.

And I am not just talking about this forum only.

Let them bash away. I will still keep questioning.

If you support the organization by your time talents and money then it is not just association. If you contribute financially then you contribute to all the projects of the GC.

The Lord knows my heart and he knows what my intentions are for those things which I offer the church. I cannot be held responsible for what the agenda of the church is if it is not my own. I just don't believe that.

It is an issue. No church is going to use its money correctly all the time. And I am glad you write to object to their abuse. But do they show any signs of changing their practice? You have a thread documenting their re-doubled efforts.

True, the church will not change. I know of several blogs and ministries where some Progs trumpet thier optimistic hope of change and the sureity in which they express thier opinion that change will come at some point.

I am a little more realistic and pessimistic by nature than some of my Prog bretheren and sisteren. I have enough years under my belt and enough battle scars to know that, no, change is not forthcoming and never will be. Any change that happens is small and insignificant to the bigger picture. I have been hardened by cynicism, but that comes naturally when you fight for reform as long as I have.

Hey, we all have to have a purpose in life and a cause worth fighting for. That is enough for me and I can die with a clean conscience knowing I did all I could.

This is what formers struggled with. We would rather see the church change. But they show no signs of change.

You're right. Change will not happen. The question that faces each non-Traditional SDA is 'what will you do with that information and how will it affect your own personal spiritual journey?'

It has led some of you out of the church permanently. But that is not necessarily the path we all are destined to take.

NightEternal said:

True, the church will not change. I know of several blogs and ministries where some Progs trumpet thier optimistic hope of change and the sureity in which they express thier opinion that change will come at some point.

I am a little more realistic and pessimistic by nature than some of my Prog bretheren and sisteren. I have enough years under my belt and enough battle scars to know that no, change is not forthcoming and never will be. Any change that happens is small and insignificant to the bigger picture. I have been hardened by cynicism, but that comes naturally when you fight for reform as long as I have.

Hey, we all have to have a purpose in life and a cause worth fighting for. That is enough for me and I can die with a clean conscience knowing I did all I could.

You're right. Change will not happen. The question that faces each nonTraditinal SDA is what will you do witht hat information and how will it affect your own personal spiritual journey?

It has led some of you out of the church. but that is not necessarily the path we all are destined to take.

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Hey Night, I just wanted to chime in a little, if you don't mind.

I realized early on after entering the ministry that the SDA church was not going to change. I 'really bad' wanted to change it, but I discovered that it was a movement that turned into a monument, and the only way to change it was to tear down the monument and start all over again (which would be another movement that would eventually become another monument, and...history repeats itself).

I gave 10 years professionally to the church and almost 4 decades of dedication to pushing its cause. There were many good moments, summers, and even years, but in the balances it didn't weight out for me. God very purposefully and intentionally took me in a direction that put me in a position to resign or live a lie. I chose to resign.

I couldn't spend any more of my short life trying to change what will not change. If Christianity and Jesus Christ (the Head) only existed in SDAism I would still be in the trenches of SDAism pushing for the changes that must take place to bring it into line with Christianity, the one and only 'church' Christ started.

Here's what I know. SDAism doesn't have to change. It is a man-made organization that has its own vision and method for getting their SDA message to the world. Jesus Christ is not confined to the agendas, missions, visions, and methods of man-made organizations, even when those organizations claim to be the 'only one's' (not just a reference to SDAism). Jesus' church does NOT fit in ANY denomination.

So Jesus (God) is, and exists independent of us. He will come for all who believe in Him for salvation (or all humanity if you believe like Senti). Regardless of what 'organizations/denominations/sectarian groups' we allign ourselves with, he will come back in the clouds and take with him those who believe in him.

Why spend our lives changing what will not change when we can live victoriously in Christ Jesus and associate with others who are ALIVE in Christ? I don't have to change it, you don't have to change it, NOBODY does. Jesus can come and Adventism can be stuck in it's ways, and those Adventists who God knows will be saved. No doubt. It plays no role other than the potential for making its tenents doubt their salvation and for focussing them on EGW and other side issues rather than Christ. Jesus IS the point of this world! And while I care about my SDA family, I am not responsible for changing them. They know where I stand and the Holy Spirit (God) will move them to where they need to be according to his purposes. Maybe they will die SDA and if Christ comes in 50,000 years it won't mean a hill of beans except that they were known by Christ.

Anyway, maybe God has you where he wants you to be for whatever purpose. Maybe it's for others, maybe it's for you. But if/when he says 'leave' or go do something else, we need to listen. I know that HE is in control, so I'm not worried about you, Night.

In Christ alone...

good points Free... the moment we realize that God cannot be confined to one denomination or .org we would be better off.... again, while I understand that people have to do what they feel they need to do, I have never understood the idea that we have to be in the "right" church or else....

freeindeed2 said:

If Christianity and Jesus Christ (the Head) only existed in SDAism I would still be in the trenches of SDAism pushing for the changes that must take place to bring it into line with Christianity, the one and only 'church' Christ started.

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That was similar to my thought. When Luther was objecting to CC abuses the CC was by and large the only show going in the west for Christianity. That is not the case anymore.

tall73 said:

And here you come to a complication in the issue. Is it the belief system itself that gives rise to this or power structures/organizations? The Adventist church is both--a belief system and a structure, and it is also a part of Christianity.

Is it necessary to leave the beliefs of Christianity because an institution behaves poorly? I don't think so.

Is it necessary to leave the BELIEFS of Adventism if Adventism behaves badly. I don't think that is necessarily true either. But I do wonder at what point I should stop supporting a system. Is it the first sign of issues--no, then I could never belong to any group. Is it when the main point is compromised? To me that is a good indication. If Adventism has compromised the main point then for me it is time to leave.

I am trying to figure out what that threshold is for others.

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Tall, I think we're pretty close to each other on this one! Except you left, and I've stayed. So far . . .

tall73 said:

Indeed, I am still discussing beliefs. Beliefs themselves do not form the basis of knowing God. But I do believe that God has revealed Himself through the Scriptures. I am not saying He is limited only to that. But if He revealed Himself through the Scriptures I want to know what He revealed.

He did not reveal Himself in systematic theological fashion or a list of beliefs, but through the experience of people over time. But within that record there are beliefs set out.

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Fair enough.

NightEternal said:

Wow, that's a tall request! :o

Can you be a little more specific? What area do you want to address? EGW, doctrinal, lifestyle issues? There needs to be reform in all three areas and it would take me forever to spell all of them out in detail here right now.

I have to go right now, but I will be back to address this in more detail. In the meantime, have a gander at my list of 'reforms' that I plan to nail to the door of the GC!

(Tongue-in-cheek for those who still don't get it!)

Here are my list of demands for a reformed SDA church :

THE IJ

* The IJ will no longer be considered a testing truth in the denomination. Any minister, scholar or teacher that has been fired or pressured to resign over this issue will be reinstated and will be given a full apology as well as full backpay and compensation.

* Desmond Ford is to be issued a full apology and reinstated, his credentials returned as well as provided full compensation and backpay. Every single minister who was sacked at the time of Glacierview is to be re-instated and thier credentials returned to them along with a full apology.

* A full apology is to be issued on behalf of Raymond Cottrell.

* Those who wish to believe in this doctrine are free to, but it will go on official record that there is no Biblical support for it and the denomination will repudiate it as merely a devising of the pioneers.

EGW

* EGW is no longer considered to have doctrinal authourity nor the authourity of the OT prophets, nor the authourity of the apostles. She is to have pastoral authourity only. Those who assert she is equal to the Bible will be fired, disfellowshipped and sued for blasphemy against God's Holy Word.

* Belief in her inspiration is no longer a requirement and such statements are to be removed from the baptismal vows immediately. Belief in her is to be totally optional and left to the conscience of the individual.

* The EGW Estate is to be shut down and all staff fired on the spot. Those who are responsible for withholding and suppressing information will have legal action taken against them and thier salary and benefits are to be cut off. There is to be no severance pay given under any circumstances.

* All of EGW's books, with the exception of Steps To Christ and Desire Of Ages, will be removed from all institutions, churches and schools, to be replaced with the writings of Luther and the Protestant Reformers.

* There is to be full and total disclosure in regards to EGW in all matters, and this information is to be widely distibuted to the general lay membership so they can decide for themselves concerning her.

HEALTH MESSAGE

* The clean/unclean distinctions are to be abolished. Anyone is free to eat what they want according to thier conscience, and the only criteria for abstaining from any food will be health-related, not salvific or moral.

* The church is to go on record that abstinence is not taught anywhere in Scripture, but rather moderation.

* Real wine will be served at communion.

28 FB's

* The 28 fundamental beliefs are to be abolished and replaced with just the basic Christian fundamentals.

BAPTISMAL VOWS

* The baptismal vows are to be abolished and candidates are to be baptized in Christ alone, not the organization.

INDEPENDENT/ULTRA-CONSERVATIVE MINISTRIES

* Every single one of the right-wing ministries is to be shut down and all employees and staff fired on the spot. The leaders and founders of these ministries are to be taken to court for defamation of the SDA organization by pandering to and encouraging the cult label.

* All ultra-conservative websites will be shut down and thier owners and founders disfellowshipped and sued for defamation of the Adventist organization.

* Those who insist on proffering sinless perfection or the sinful nature of Christ or any other right-wing heresy will be fired, disfellowshipped and sued for defamation of the Adventist organization.

SCHOLARS

* Our scholars will no longer be held under the control of administration. They are free to do thier own research and come to thier own conclusions on theological issues without an EGW straight-jacket.

FORMERS

* A full letter of sincere apology is to be written and read, broadcasted world-wide, to every single former who has had thier spiritual lives ruined by the Adventist church.

GC

* All staff at the GC, including the president, are to be relieved of thier duties and replaced by a staff of strictly Evangelical and Progressive SDA's.

* Desmond Ford is to be elected the new president and Edward Heppenstall the new vice-president. George Knight will head the ministerial division.

If I think of more I will add to it. I plan on nailing it to the GC door soon.

Think it will sell?

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=41066772#post41066772

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Hmmm...maybe I am Progressive. I think I agreed with about 80% of this.

Unfortunately Night is banned at the moment. But welcome

tall73 said:

Unfortunately Night is banned at the moment. But welcome

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Yes, it's been over a year since I been on. I don't recall there being a "progressive" SDA forum last I was here and I've been doing some back reading. It would appear that this place has turned somewhat into a battle ground. It saddens me to see this much animosity amongst fellow Christians. Again, I haven't been around so I won't sit here and try to pass judgment on any one person, but it appears as though there is fault on both sides. I hope that there will be some sort of resolution in the future, because it wouldn't appear as though the current situation is leading anywhere positive.

Joshua

Bumping for Lebesgue.