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Question For Fellow Atheists - Extraordinary Evidence

quatona

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Often in these discussion I see Carl Sagan´s quote:
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."

I´m not comfortable with it.

I have no problem understanding what counts as "extraordinary claims": references to the "non-/extra-/supernatural" (basically everything that´s defined as being beyond human capabilities of investigation, of science etc.).

It is obvious (per their definition) that "ordinary" evidence wouldn´t be sufficient to substantiate such claims. Something else would be required.
We don´t accept claims regarding ghosts, gods, angels as easily as we´d accept claims about ordinary/earthly/physical stuff. E.g. the question whether a man named Jesus living 2000 years ago in the Middle East isn´t treated differently than any other claim regarding alleged historical persons, while the claim that he was God/working miracles etc. lead us outside the "ordinary".

My question: What would count as "extraordinary evidence"?
(And my thesis is: There isn´t and can´t be - per definition -such a thing as "extraordinary evidence". Thus, while I agree that we reject the idea that "ordinary" evidence is sufficient to support extraordinary claims, I don´t see much point in demanding "extraordinary evidence".)
 

Percivale

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It is an extraordinary claim (or was 100 years ago), that a chunk of metal one person can carry has enough energy in it to blow up a city. It is extraordinary evidence that Hiroshima and Nagasaki ceased to exist in view of millions of people. That's not the definitions you're using maybe, but it probably would fit Sagan's usage.
 
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GoldenBoy89

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Often in these discussion I see Carl Sagan´s quote:
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."

I´m not comfortable with it.

I have no problem understanding what counts as "extraordinary claims": references to the "non-/extra-/supernatural" (basically everything that´s defined as being beyond human capabilities of investigation, of science etc.).

It is obvious (per their definition) that "ordinary" evidence wouldn´t be sufficient to substantiate such claims. Something else would be required.
We don´t accept claims regarding ghosts, gods, angels as easily as we´d accept claims about ordinary/earthly/physical stuff. E.g. the question whether a man named Jesus living 2000 years ago in the Middle East isn´t treated differently than any other claim regarding alleged historical persons, while the claim that he was God/working miracles etc. lead us outside the "ordinary".

My question: What would count as "extraordinary evidence"?
(And my thesis is: There isn´t and can´t be - per definition -such a thing as "extraordinary evidence". Thus, while I agree that we reject the idea that "ordinary" evidence is sufficient to support extraordinary claims, I don´t see much point in demanding "extraordinary evidence".)

I think all Sagan meant was that particularly ridiculous sounding claims need to be thoroughly backed up.

I don't think the evidence necessarily needs to be 'extraordinary' to suffice. It was probably just a play on words and I think it serves it's purpose, which is to illustrate a point.
 
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Ken-1122

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Often in these discussion I see Carl Sagan´s quote:
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."

I´m not comfortable with it.

I have no problem understanding what counts as "extraordinary claims": references to the "non-/extra-/supernatural" (basically everything that´s defined as being beyond human capabilities of investigation, of science etc.).

It is obvious (per their definition) that "ordinary" evidence wouldn´t be sufficient to substantiate such claims. Something else would be required.
We don´t accept claims regarding ghosts, gods, angels as easily as we´d accept claims about ordinary/earthly/physical stuff. E.g. the question whether a man named Jesus living 2000 years ago in the Middle East isn´t treated differently than any other claim regarding alleged historical persons, while the claim that he was God/working miracles etc. lead us outside the "ordinary".

My question: What would count as "extraordinary evidence"?
(And my thesis is: There isn´t and can´t be - per definition -such a thing as "extraordinary evidence". Thus, while I agree that we reject the idea that "ordinary" evidence is sufficient to support extraordinary claims, I don´t see much point in demanding "extraordinary evidence".)
I think before we can have sufficient evidence that Jesus is God, we would have to establish the existence of God first. This could be accomplished if God were to come out of hiding and display his existence in a way that can be recognized by mankind; such as a voice from the sky confirmed by modern technology. If this were to happen and the voice confirmed Jesus as his son, that would definitely be extraordinary evidence for such an extraordinary claim.
 
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pdudgeon

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I think before we can have sufficient evidence that Jesus is God, we would have to establish the existence of God first. This could be accomplished if God were to come out of hiding and display his existence in a way that can be recognized by mankind; such as a voice from the sky confirmed by modern technology. If this were to happen and the voice confirmed Jesus as his son, that would definitely be extraordinary evidence for such an extraordinary claim.

the thing is that all of the miracles of Jesus are not recorded. John confirms that in his Gospel. But then he goes on to explain that the ones that are written down were included that we might believe.

so apparently he thought that what was recorded of the extraordinary events of Jesus' time here on earth should have been sufficient for the people of that time to believe.

now many people of that time did believe, (even though they didn't have access to our level of technology) but not all. same thing happens today--many believe but not all.
so is the evidence that was given then not sufficient for today, or is there something that still gets in the way of belief?
 
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pdudgeon

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I think before we can have sufficient evidence that Jesus is God, we would have to establish the existence of God first. This could be accomplished if God were to come out of hiding and display his existence in a way that can be recognized by mankind; such as a voice from the sky confirmed by modern technology. If this were to happen and the voice confirmed Jesus as his son, that would definitely be extraordinary evidence for such an extraordinary claim.

what is it about hearing a voice that would cause you to believe?

in essence we already have the techology to produce a voice from the sky (satelite radio) that can confirm that Jesus is the Son of God.
 
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DogmaHunter

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Often in these discussion I see Carl Sagan´s quote:
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."

I´m not comfortable with it.

I have no problem understanding what counts as "extraordinary claims": references to the "non-/extra-/supernatural" (basically everything that´s defined as being beyond human capabilities of investigation, of science etc.).

It is obvious (per their definition) that "ordinary" evidence wouldn´t be sufficient to substantiate such claims. Something else would be required.
We don´t accept claims regarding ghosts, gods, angels as easily as we´d accept claims about ordinary/earthly/physical stuff. E.g. the question whether a man named Jesus living 2000 years ago in the Middle East isn´t treated differently than any other claim regarding alleged historical persons, while the claim that he was God/working miracles etc. lead us outside the "ordinary".

My question: What would count as "extraordinary evidence"?
(And my thesis is: There isn´t and can´t be - per definition -such a thing as "extraordinary evidence". Thus, while I agree that we reject the idea that "ordinary" evidence is sufficient to support extraordinary claims, I don´t see much point in demanding "extraordinary evidence".)

I never considered "extra-ordinary claims" to just imply supernatural claims.

To me, an extra-ordinary claim is a claim that is far removed from the world as we know it. That doesn't have to be supernatural.

Like indeed the example a few posts back: that a piece of metal that a single person can carry holds enough energy to blow up an entire city. Without knowledge of nuclear forces etc, this is an outlandish / extra-ordinary claim.

How easy it is to accept a claim is directly proportional to the contents of the claim.

Having said that, I agree that asking evidence of supernatural shenannigans is pointless. Precisely because such claims are unfalsifiable. The very nature of the word "supernatural" actually makes it pretty much impossible to have any evidence for it. This is why such claims belong to the area of religions and "faith".
 
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Dave Ellis

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Often in these discussion I see Carl Sagan´s quote:
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."

I´m not comfortable with it.

I have no problem understanding what counts as "extraordinary claims": references to the "non-/extra-/supernatural" (basically everything that´s defined as being beyond human capabilities of investigation, of science etc.).

It is obvious (per their definition) that "ordinary" evidence wouldn´t be sufficient to substantiate such claims. Something else would be required.
We don´t accept claims regarding ghosts, gods, angels as easily as we´d accept claims about ordinary/earthly/physical stuff. E.g. the question whether a man named Jesus living 2000 years ago in the Middle East isn´t treated differently than any other claim regarding alleged historical persons, while the claim that he was God/working miracles etc. lead us outside the "ordinary".

My question: What would count as "extraordinary evidence"?
(And my thesis is: There isn´t and can´t be - per definition -such a thing as "extraordinary evidence". Thus, while I agree that we reject the idea that "ordinary" evidence is sufficient to support extraordinary claims, I don´t see much point in demanding "extraordinary evidence".)



I think all Sagan was trying to say is if you have a claim that is quite revolutionary in thought, or overrules some previously held wisdom, you need a lot of evidence to back your claim.

For example, Einstein's Theory of General Relativity was an extraordinary claim in the world of physics. It completely rewrote many longstanding assumptions of people in the field, and if you want a claim that revolutionary to be taken seriously, it must be backed by a large amount of evidence.

In Einstein's case, the evidence did in fact support his theory, and as such it was accepted by the scientific community.

In the same vein, String Theory also makes a rather extraordinary claim, and while the math appears to work, there's no evidence it describes the universe that we actually live in. If it is proven to be true, it would also rewrite a lot of our understandings about how the universe works, however in order to accept that, we'll need some pretty solid and outstanding (or in other words extraordinary) evidence.



Put another way, if somebody makes an ordinary claim (i.e. they had pizza for lunch) you can pretty well take them at their word. It's a common thing to have pizza for lunch, and you're justified in accepting their claim at face value.

If the same person said they had pizza for lunch at a pizzeria on the surface of mars, they'd need to provide some extraordinary evidence for you to accept their claim.
 
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Albion

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I think before we can have sufficient evidence that Jesus is God, we would have to establish the existence of God first. This could be accomplished if God were to come out of hiding and display his existence in a way that can be recognized by mankind; such as a voice from the sky confirmed by modern technology.

We believe--all of us--in many things that are not tangible, cannot be seen, and are not in the business of revealing or proving themselves to us.

In fact, much of modern society depends upon the use or recognition of the reality of such things, so there is no reason to impose a stricter standard upon God.
 
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KCfromNC

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We believe--all of us--in many things that are not tangible, cannot be seen, and are not in the business of revealing or proving themselves to us.

In fact, much of modern society depends upon the use or recognition of the reality of such things, so there is no reason to impose a stricter standard upon God.

This would be more convincing if one could present actual examples of these alleged universal unjustified beliefs.
 
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Albion

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This would be more convincing if one could present actual examples of these alleged universal unjustified beliefs.

I'm not a scientist, but you know that we all believe in certain "facts" about the nature of the universe, of forces operating in the physical realm that are unseen and uncharted, etc. And many people believe in spiritual forces or entities quite apart from believing in a Creator God.

The evidence for some sort of a supreme being is much stronger than all of that, but when it comes to the subject of God, we expect to get out the litmus paper, ready to say "no way" unless "I can hold it, see it, taste it. Then maybe I'll believe!"
 
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quatona

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Ok, so before the thread goes down the hill all threads go sooner or later, thanks to all your responses! Much appreciated. :)



I think all Sagan was trying to say is if you have a claim that is quite revolutionary in thought, or overrules some previously held wisdom, you need a lot of evidence to back your claim.

For example, Einstein's Theory of General Relativity was an extraordinary claim in the world of physics. It completely rewrote many longstanding assumptions of people in the field, and if you want a claim that revolutionary to be taken seriously, it must be backed by a large amount of evidence.

Yes, I agree: In this context the quote makes sense.

Now, would you guys agree that the quote is misapplied when we are facing claims regarding that which is a priori defined as "supernatural"?
 
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keith99

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the thing is that all of the miracles of Jesus are not recorded. John confirms that in his Gospel. But then he goes on to explain that the ones that are written down were included that we might believe.

so apparently he thought that what was recorded of the extraordinary events of Jesus' time here on earth should have been sufficient for the people of that time to believe.

now many people of that time did believe, (even though they didn't have access to our level of technology) but not all. same thing happens today--many believe but not all.
so is the evidence that was given then not sufficient for today, or is there something that still gets in the way of belief?

Johns comments work out pretty much the opposite of how Christians seem to think it does.

John claims there were far more miracles than he 'documented' than means far more chances for external confirming evidence. That makes the lack of such evidence all the more convincing that it is all fiction.
 
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keith99

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The claims regarding God are extraordinary if 2 (at least ways).

Aside from what has been spoken of so far there is at least a second aspect. The claim demands extraordinary action on the part of those who believe it.

If a man were to come claiming to be able to perfectly predict the weather and he says it is going to rain believing enough to cover the BBQ is no big deal. Believing enough to call off a family gathering planned for weeks for this afternoon when the skys are clear this morning takes more. Believing enough to load what you can and drive North to avoid a hurricane takes more still.

Oh and believing he MIGHT be right and keeping track of his claims requires almost no evidence, it is in fact the gathering of evidence. And here we come back to a lot of religion. Many saw enough to think it worth investigating and keeping track. The problem there is more often than not claims do not come true.

BTW my very first job after college was one where the company office was only a year old. That was how long ago they trusted a prediction of a hurricane and loaded millions of dollars of equipment onto trucks and drove North from Corpus Christi. They did not trust blindly or incorrectly.
 
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essentialsaltes

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I have no problem understanding what counts as "extraordinary claims": references to the "non-/extra-/supernatural" (basically everything that´s defined as being beyond human capabilities of investigation, of science etc.).

Another vote for 'extraordinary is not necessarily supernatural'.

My question: What would count as "extraordinary evidence"?
(And my thesis is: There isn´t and can´t be - per definition -such a thing as "extraordinary evidence". Thus, while I agree that we reject the idea that "ordinary" evidence is sufficient to support extraordinary claims, I don´t see much point in demanding "extraordinary evidence".)
...
Now, would you guys agree that the quote is misapplied when we are facing claims regarding that which is a priori defined as "supernatural"?

It doesn't make as snappy a quote, but what I'm generally looking for in order to accept a belief is sufficient evidence. (What counts as sufficient? Evidently, evidence that convinces me to accept the belief.)

Suppose you turn on the television at random and see a woman holding a microphone, while a news crawl runs along the bottom of the screen, and a giant network news logo is stamped in the corner of the screen.

"Here I am in London," she says, with the Parliament Building and Big Ben in the background.
Do I have enough evidence to believe her claim? Without the elaborate prefacing in this thread, I expect most of us would accept the claim tacitly while watching the video.

"Here I am deep inside Fort Knox," she says, with stacks of gold bars in the background.

Here, the background imagery may be less sufficient to cause us to accept her statement as factual. But suppose she introduces a uniformed personage...

"I'm standing here with the public relations officer of Fort Knox, more correctly known as the United States Bullion Depository."

I think that would be convincing for me.

"Here I am on the Moon," she says, with a giant luminous Earth hovering in the background. "I'm standing here with the public relations officer of the Moonbase, more correctly known as the Experimental Lunar Expeditionary Station."

I expect none of us would believe the claim. But suppose it were followed by a live transmission from the White House, where Obama "can finally reveal" the existence of the secret moonbase program. He drones on for a while, and then a filled press room full of people you vaguely recognize from the White House press corps start asking questions...

Different claims clearly require different amounts of evidence. And one of the conditions that sets the sufficiency bar is the mismatch (if any) between the believability of the claim and the fakability of the evidence.

It is just as easy to put a shot of London in the background of a picture, as it is to put Fort Knox. They are both easily and equally fakable. But we accept one without thinking, and the other may give us momentary pause, requiring additional reassurance that what we see is true.

I think another thing that enters into it is the strength of negative evidence. We know there is no moonbase, so we would have a hard time accepting that claim without... extraord... er, sufficient evidence. In this case, the sufficiency bar is quite high.

We know that decades of research have shown that people can't call out Zener cards any better than slightly above chance (at best) through psychic abilities. And that taking additional precautions in the testing reduced even the best card-callers performance back to chance.

If we saw some ordinary evidence (a video on TV) of a foreign spelling bee in which a contestant spelled 25 words in a row and we were told it was done correctly, we should be inclined (I think) to believe that these words were indeed spelled correctly.

If we saw some ordinary evidence (a video on TV) of someone calling out 25 Zener cards in a row (and we knew something about these tests of 'ESP'), we wouldn't believe it.

The weight of all the previous evidence makes the claim extraordinary, and so we require extraor... sufficient evidence before believing it.

I think it's possible for there to be a sufficient amount of ordinary evidence to establish the claim well enough to justify tentative belief.

We strip the psychic naked, and hire James Randi and the ghost of Carl Sagan to oversee the testing, with cameras everywhere, quadruple blinds, and the cards are in a different room somewhere else on earth, locked in a time vault. The psychic writes down 25 cards in a row, and his guesses are broadcast to the world before the cards are examined. So on and so forth. There's nothing supernatural about the new conditions, but they certainly seem extraordinary, in the usual sense.

If he passed with flying colors, I can't think of any reason not to accept his claim. (And then burn him as a mutant/witch, of course.)

So while the true threshold for belief is sufficient evidence, I think there are cases where this calls for extraordinary measures to be taken. If this gets boiled down into a snappy saying suitable for meme-ification, I can live with that.
 
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Ken-1122

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what is it about hearing a voice that would cause you to believe?
An audible voice is something that can be recorded via modern technology and it can be confirmed as real rather than a figment of imagination; or delusion.

in essence we already have the techology to produce a voice from the sky (satelite radio) that can confirm that Jesus is the Son of God.
I'm afraid you've mistaken my friend; Satellite radio, or any other technology has never confirmed that Jesus is the son of God.

Ken
 
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Ken-1122

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the thing is that all of the miracles of Jesus are not recorded. John confirms that in his Gospel. But then he goes on to explain that the ones that are written down were included that we might believe.

so apparently he thought that what was recorded of the extraordinary events of Jesus' time here on earth should have been sufficient for the people of that time to believe.

Obviously he was wrong.

now many people of that time did believe, (even though they didn't have access to our level of technology) but not all. same thing happens today--many believe but not all.

People of today are willing to believe because they are willing to take someone else's word for it; not because they witnessed one of Jesus miracles



so is the evidence that was given then not sufficient for today, or is there something that still gets in the way of belief?

As long as people have the freewill to choose; you will never get 100% of the people believing. How many Christians do you think would be reluctant to burn their bibles if a miracle were done in the name of Dionysus? There will always be those who are willing to close their mind to the facts if it goes against their agenda; but if the evidence could be scrutinized by the technology of today, you will have a lot more people believing than you have now. What do you think?

Ken
 
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Ken-1122

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We believe--all of us--in many things that are not tangible, cannot be seen, and are not in the business of revealing or proving themselves to us.

In fact, much of modern society depends upon the use or recognition of the reality of such things, so there is no reason to impose a stricter standard upon God.

What kind of things are you talking about that cannot be experienced via our 5 seances yet we still believe in?

Ken
 
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keith99

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"Here I am on the Moon," she says, with a giant luminous Earth hovering in the background. "I'm standing here with the public relations officer of the Moonbase, more correctly known as the Experimental Lunar Expeditionary Station."

I expect none of us would believe the claim. But suppose it were followed by a live transmission from the White House, where Obama "can finally reveal" the existence of the secret moonbase program. He drones on for a while, and then a filled press room full of people you vaguely recognize from the White House press corps start asking questions...
....

I'm betting I can find at least 3 different connections that lead me to contacts with people at JPL. Next cubicle over is a Cal Tech Grad. I'm sure he knows a classmate who went that route. I know 2 other guys who at least used to work at JPL. Have not seen them for years, but have another friend who most likely has. I can head back to my college and find a prof there who knows someone at JPL.

In short I can check. And I can be pretty sure my checking would show there is no moonbase. That or would show evidence that we do have some entirely radical form of transport. There is simply no way a base could be created without some of the scores of launches being detected if they used conventional rockets.

In short I have lots of ways that should turn up evidence that strange things were happening.
 
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