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Question for CofE members

rhartsc

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Hi all,

The CofE is in communion with the Old Catholic Churches of the Union of Utrecht yet the CofE has parishes and a diocese that over laps the jurisdiction of these Old Catholic Churches. Why is that the case?

In my mind that would be the equivalent of the TEC opening parishes in England. I would have thought communion would have meant a recognition of the See of Utrecht's jurisdiction.

Any insights and clarifications are greatly appreciated.

Thanks.
 

Arcangl86

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Not CoE, but a couple of things I noticed. First off, TEC actually has parishes in both Germany and Switzerland. Second, the CoE actually leaves day to day episcopal supervision to the local Old Catholic bishops IIRC. My suspicion is that the churches in Europe are mostly for English ex-pats.
 
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Albion

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I'm not a member of the CofE, but the answer is "that's the way these kinds of agreements work." The terms include mutual recognition of orders and sacraments, provide for pulpit exchanges, and make statements about the authenticity of the two bodies. Sometimes they go into the matter of mutual assistance. They aren't intended to mark off territory that's to be exclusive for one church or the other.

That would be hard to do anyway since the churches were established prior to the agreement. In the USA, for example, there is an agreement between TEC and the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, and their parishes and congregations overlap everywhere.


Hi all,

The CofE is in communion with the Old Catholic Churches of the Union of Utrecht yet the CofE has parishes and a diocese that over laps the jurisdiction of these Old Catholic Churches. Why is that the case?

In my mind that would be the equivalent of the TEC opening parishes in England. I would have thought communion would have meant a recognition of the See of Utrecht's jurisdiction.

Any insights and clarifications are greatly appreciated.

Thanks.
 
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Fish and Bread

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I think in broad terms, the end goal of ecumenical talks and agreement for Anglicans is not to establish one big church organization with a singular way of doing everything with everyone in the same structure under the same bishops doing services or masses that are exactly the same. Rather, I think they are going more for agreements where as many churches or denominations as is possible continue in their separate traditions, and preserve those traditions, but recognize that each is the equivalent of the other and part of God's church, and can share clergy and resources, and work in mission together, where it makes sense to do so.

Someone mentioned the Episcopal Church's (US affiliate of the Anglican Communion) agreement with the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America (The largest Lutheran denomination in the US). I think the idea there is largely that, okay, in a broad sense the Episcopal Church is Christianity with roots in the English and Celtic traditions that has it's own traditions established on American soil in that mix as well, and that in a broad sense ELCA is Christianity with roots in German and maybe Swedish traditions and some other places that were further developed by many Lutheran denominations on American soil that added to the mix and then merged into ELCA (ELCA is I think the result of a lot of similar Lutheran denominations merging together or merging into ELCA over the years).

So, what you have there are ECUSA and ELCA recognizing that they are in broad strokes the same things underneath it all and that an Episcopalian priest and a Lutheran pastor are serving the same fundamental role and most could be candidates for positions in both Episcopalian parishes and Lutheran congregations with perhaps some extra instruction in the special traditions of each. However, because each group has special traditions and flavors to the way they do things that they want to preserve and think are worthy of preservation, they have sort of implicitly decided that rather than seek to literally become one church or denomination at a national level and compromise on all these traditions across the board and merge it together, that they are stronger having two technically separate institutions that preserve their traditions but recognize each other as equivalents of each other and that can in local areas where it makes sense be more flexible than they would be about to be without a formal agreement.

Okay, so, in practice, where can these agreements improve things for people in the pews?

Well, one thing is, if you have an Episcopalian parish and a Lutheran parish in an area that are both struggling to survive financially due to low membership and pledges, they could perhaps instead of each having a separate clergy-person, they could hire one priest or pastor from either tradition and each pay half his or her salary, with the clergyperson acting as a priest and celebrating the Eucharist according to the Book of Common Prayer at 9am in the Episcopalian parish, and then going over to the Lutheran congregation and doing a service as a pastor according the Lutheran liturgy at 11am at the Lutheran parish. Since ECUSA and ELCA both have the Revised Common Lectionary as their default lectionary now (A lectionary is a list of what the bible readings are on each Sunday) and the same liturgical seasons, the hypothetical priest/pastor in that situation would be able to prepare one sermon each Sunday and read it at both parishes after the same readings. The BCP lectionary is an option in Episcopalian parishes, and I think some Lutheran congregations are allowed to chuck the lectionary and just do random readings (I *think*, I'm not really sure how that works. Maybe I'll ask the Lutherans in their area. I do sense that they don't follow the lectionary as religiously, no pun intended, as Episcopalians and Roman Catholics do, but that they are sort of supposed to adhere to it mostly or something), but you've got that single official lectionary that clergy could use across groups because it is the same and the main or official lectionary of each church or denomination when called for.

They could even ditch separate church buildings and pool their money to jointly pay the expenses costs associated with a single church building they could share, too, at their own discretionary, if they couldn't afford separate church buildings.

Taken to an extreme, they could simply hold one big service that draws from both traditions, essentially a local parish or congregation that is part of both churches or denominations, and traditions, like the place a poster in this thread says she attends.

But in areas where two separate parishes or congregations can thrive with separate priests and pastors, they can still do it and be very distinctly in their own tradition, with clergy from their own tradition's seminaries and so on and so forth. And just recognize that they are all the same beliefs, mostly, underneath.

The idea is that you don't have to look and act identically and have identical traditions to be the same faith underneath. You also don't have to have the same bishop in a given area. But it's also that ultimately these churches and denominations can be stronger when they are one in the sense of a sort of spiritual unity and share communion and priests and all sort of things in common in areas where it makes sense to do so.

I'll bet the Church of England and Old Catholic situation is kind of similar.
 
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Fish and Bread

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The TEC and ELCA sometimes more than overlap. My church is affiliated with both, and is under a Bishop from each.

Neat.

How does that work in practice? For example, you walk into church on Sunday morning, is the service from the Episcopal Book of Common Prayer, a Lutheran book of worship, or is it a mixture of the two? If a mixture, what are examples of elements it takes from each?

Is your clergy-person called a priest or a pastor? In the bulletin or when you walk out after the service and shake his hand, is he "Father" or "Pastor" (or the female equivalents)? Do they kind of just have everyone call him or her whatever they want?

What happens for confirmations? Do they bring in a bishop like in the Episcopal tradition, or does the pastor do it like in the Lutheran tradition?

How do you folks handle other differences when they come up? Anything interesting? I don't really know what questions to ask off the top of head beyond what I asked, but I am sure there are situations that crop up that the parish or congregations has to figure out how to address and I'd be interested in how they do so. Speaking of which- is it a parish or is it a congregation?
 
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Fish and Bread

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Since ECUSA and ELCA both have the Revised Common Lectionary as their default lectionary now (A lectionary is a list of what the bible readings are on each Sunday) and the same liturgical seasons, the hypothetical priest/pastor in that situation would be able to prepare one sermon each Sunday and read it at both parishes after the same readings. The BCP lectionary is an option in Episcopalian parishes, and I think some Lutheran congregations are allowed to chuck the lectionary and just do random readings (I *think*, I'm not really sure how that works. Maybe I'll ask the Lutherans in their area. I do sense that they don't follow the lectionary as religiously, no pun intended, as Episcopalians and Roman Catholics do, but that they are sort of supposed to adhere to it mostly or something),

I decided to ask the ELCA Lutherans about how the lectionary works in their church. Here's the thread in their area:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7870347/
 
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Liberasit

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Hi all,

The CofE is in communion with the Old Catholic Churches of the Union of Utrecht yet the CofE has parishes and a diocese that over laps the jurisdiction of these Old Catholic Churches. Why is that the case?

In my mind that would be the equivalent of the TEC opening parishes in England. I would have thought communion would have meant a recognition of the See of Utrecht's jurisdiction.

Any insights and clarifications are greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

I imagine the CofE parishes were there before the two churches formed during the joint communion policy.

We tend not to get too hung up about denominationalism.
 
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Bonifatius

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I just saw this and perhaps I can help a bit here. I live in Germany and know some Old Catholic parishes as well as chaplaincies of the Diocese in Europe (C of E) and the Episcopal Church.
The whole situation is quite complicated and not easy to resolve. Most Anglican Churches in central Europe have grown out of English speaking expat communities - either Americans or British. They remain English speaking although they attract people from all over the world and various church backgrounds as well as natives. In Germany about a quarter of members of Anglican chaplaincies would be Germans who like the style of worship and fellowship.

The Old Catholic Churches on the other hand are exclusively German speaking (or Dutch in the Netherlands). Their tradition would be broadly Catholic with some changes to liturgy and church practice. In the past decades they have turned very liberal. Many of them - and most priests - would be runaway Roman Catholics.

There have been thoughts of forming a common diocese of Old Catholic Parishes and Anglican Chaplaincies. The biggest problem in my view is the different cultural background and the different traditions from which they come. The Old Catholics as a very liberal Catholic church would struggle to deal with the variety of Anglicans ranging from low church Evangelical to high Anglocatholic. Ironically both expressions for faith would not go down well with the mainstream Old Catholic in Europe. I remember very funny discussions with our Old Catholic partner church in a place in Germany where they were very much amused about Anglican worship which they found very traditional (kneeling communion etc).
So I guess the Old Catholics would just fear to be swallowed up by the Anglicans. On the other hand the Anglican Chaplaincies in Europe are quite small and very much dependent on the infrastructure of the mother churches - either in the UK or the US. So the big question is: would a joint diocese be self supporting? Could they survive financially? How would they relate to the structure of their mother churches? How would they go about the language problem? How would they train their priests? And the most important issue: What is the vision for both TEC and C of E for their presence in Europe? Do they have one or are they simply happy to help when there is a group of people being Anglican an in need of a priest?

I don't think there is going to be a solution soon.
 
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MiniEmu

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What you have to remember about The Church of England is that it is essentially a group of individual bodies working together.

The diocese are, largely, independent. There are certain elements the Church Commissioners fund (housing of bishops and their stipends), but the day to day order of things is pretty much left up to them (including, generally, the payment of clergy who are not bishops). The diocese of Europe itself pretty much allows the Archdeaconries to get on with things in whatever fashion they see fit.

In regards to two denominations in communion but having an overlapping diocese... it's not really that much of an issue. Each funds their own things, they may even fund some joint ventures, and they supply worship for those who require it.

When in communion with another denomination the core mission is one of unity, the theory being that despite our differences we still believe the same things and it is this that helps our differences work for the better of our communities. Formal agreements are set up, in which each agrees that the other is most definitely Christian and holds onto enough similarities that the differences can be laughed about, and that's pretty much it. Obviously it's more complex than that, but some of the agreements are available online if people truly wish to see what goes into making such things work (in theory).

It's normally something that those of us on the administrative side of things think would be absolutely wonderful, only for those on the ministry side to kind of drag their heels. If I recall rightly although we have set up a ministerial exchange agreement with the German Protestant Church very few priests have taken up the chance to do such a thing. What tends to happen is we have this lovely agreement which states we can share ministry, do joint things, go forth and show the world that we are one in Christ, and everyone goes about their business as usual. Perhaps with a bit of grumbling.

In Europe we're a presence for whoever wishes to come, primarily English speaking Christians who may be Anglican although we do try to find priests who are adept in the local language so as to provide a place of worship for all the community. Officially.

It's all rather interesting once you look into it.
 
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