Question for Atheists

70judge · Mar 21, 2006

the term willfull ignorance comes to mind.

chrisd53 said:
I have gotten the impression from several Atheists I know that you all consider Christians to be closed minded and who generally dont think for themselves? How accurate is the generalization of Atheists attitude towards Christians?

I have also always wondered this simple fact. You all believe in science correct? So you should be very familiar with a very simple concept...the law of conservation of matter. Now depending on how you believe everything began, big bang then evolution...etc...where did everything come from? How did all this matter get here...the matter for this planet and the rest of the universe. Where is the logical explanation for that?

Loudmouth · Mar 21, 2006

chrisd53 said:
However, dont think that every Christian says God did it just because it stops the cycle.

I don't think that every christian uses "God Did It" in that fashion. However, professional creationists do (eg Ken Ham, Hovind, Dembski, etc.). These people want to abandon methodological naturalism and let the evidence "take us where it leads". Of course this phrase is nothing more than a eupamism for "God Did It". They want the cycle of questions to stop before science can find a reliable explanation for currently unexplainable phenomena. Some organizations even go as far as saying that science should not investigate "origin issues". They see any challenge of the literal interpretation as a challenge to christianity itself, which it isn't. Luckily, there are open minded and rational christians out there, such as the 10,000 christian clergy who signed this letter.

As an agnostic/atheist I respect all religions equally, but I do have problems with the people within those religions from time to time. Science will proceed with or without the support of religions, but politics can slow it down. At the same time, ethics and morality should always guide scientific research.

There are a few out there who really have true faith and while you might consider it blind, it is very real and personal for them (not saying you do of course).

This is true for christians, hindus, buddhists, and every practitioner of every religion. I am more like Carl Sagan. I don't want to believe, I want to know. This is best way I can describe my agnosticism when compared to religion.

Edx · Mar 21, 2006

chrisd53 said:
I have gotten the impression from several Atheists I know that you all consider Christians to be closed minded and who generally dont think for themselves? How accurate is the generalization of Atheists attitude towards Christians?

Nope, just the fundamentalist Creationist ones.

I have also always wondered this simple fact. You all believe in science correct?

I always thought that was a strange thing to say.

So you should be very familiar with a very simple concept...the law of conservation of matter. Now depending on how you believe everything began, big bang then evolution...etc...where did everything come from? How did all this matter get here...the matter for this planet and the rest of the universe. Where is the logical explanation for that?

I have no idea, and I dont really understand Quantum Theory and all that stuff that attempts to explain it. But whatever. Does that mean we can invent any explanation because we dont know? Whats the point in that?

Edx · Mar 21, 2006

Aron-Ra said:
My opinion of Christians is no different than my opinion of any other religious adherent. They believe what they do without reason, and are unreasonable in that regard.

You gotta admit though, theres degrees of unreasonableness.

Ed

MewtwoX · Mar 21, 2006

Technically, if I accepted the Law of Conservation of Energy as 100% true, then it would be a sound disproof of God's existence, since it would be impossible for energy to be created. God could not create energy since energy creation is impossible by logic. I could also conclude that existence is axionomic...

Hydra009 · Mar 21, 2006

Edx said:
I always thought that was a strange thing to say.

Heh. Very True. I'm halfway tempted to shout, "No!!! No one believes in science!!!one"

Of course we all "believe" in science - everyone does. Using science to understand nature and applying it is both indispensible and pervasive - everything from a pair of glasses to your car to the Hubble space telescope is the application of science. Science isn't some fuzzy, abstract concept or belief system, it's an activity - a method of acquiring knowledge.

Maxwell511 · Mar 21, 2006

chrisd53 said:
anyways...it still leaves the question open...where did everything come from in the beginning...you can say energy...but where did that come from?

Your jumping the gun a bit. I would like us to at least find out what energy is... then maybe we could figure out where it came from.

hasnoname · Mar 21, 2006

Thanks for all your posts for the most part. Didnt really like the 'smart' guys comment My opinion of Christians is no different than my opinion of any other religious adherent. They believe what they do without reason, and are unreasonable in that regard, but hey...not everyone is accepting. There are Christians who reason. I am not as stupid as I might have led all of you to believe. I can reason...I just use my reason in reasoning about my God, and learning about my God and getting closer to my God etc. I actually love classical philosophy because I see so much truth in it...and I believe God is truth.

Actually, that is a point I would like to make, in case you guys have never thought about it this way. For those Christians who are true to their faith...there are some who arent just straight hypocrites...understand that it is of our belief to 'share the Gospel'. I am not a huge fan of invasive evangelism...but if you have a Christian friend, dont be offended if/when they do talk to you about God, or when they are close minded. I know I will always appear close minded. But if I were not, my faith would not be real...it would be a crutch instead...not something that I know in my heart is true. I know it is off topic, but just his point made me think of that. So really it is kind of hypocritical of me not to like it when he says something, because in fact I would do the same thing...just maybe a little gentler (hopefully).

But I really liked how you guys didnt really have an answer. I honestly have not interacted with many professed Atheists before, but it is something I have wondered for a while...that is what your views on where everything came from. It is rather comforting to hear that you dont think you have it figured out...if that makes sense.

Maxwell511 · Mar 21, 2006

chrisd53 said:
But I really liked how you guys didnt really have an answer. I honestly have not interacted with many professed Atheists before, but it is something I have wondered for a while...that is what your views on where everything came from. It is rather comforting to hear that you dont think you have it figured out...if that makes sense.

Please don't say that you have an answer.

Edx · Mar 21, 2006

chrisd53 said:
I know I will always appear close minded. But if I were not, my faith would not be real...

And thats what faith seems like to those that dont have it. Whats the point in it?

My absolute main objection to religion is faith, not the beliefs themselves.

Ed

Hydra009 · Mar 21, 2006

chrisd53 said:
Thanks for all your posts for the most part. Didnt really like the 'smart' guys comment My opinion of Christians is no different than my opinion of any other religious adherent. They believe what they do without reason, and are unreasonable in that regard, but hey...not everyone is accepting. There are Christians who reason. I am not as stupid as I might have led all of you to believe. I can reason...I just use my reason in reasoning about my God, and learning about my God and getting closer to my God etc. I actually love classical philosophy because I see so much truth in it...and I believe God is truth.

I don't think he meant to imply that theists are stupid, merely that their assertion that God exists is based on faith, not reason, and he thinks that faith is a poor grounding for a belief - literally unreasonable.

I'll let him explain it.

But I really liked how you guys didnt really have an answer.

There are still quite a few unknowns in science. It's no shock that the beginning of the universe is not yet known tremendously well.

At any rate, saying "I don't know" when that is the truth is always a better answer than the faith-based approach of saying "I know" and not knowing.

hasnoname · Mar 21, 2006

Maxwell511 said:
Please don't say that you have an answer.

Didnt cross my mind actually.

Maxwell511 · Mar 21, 2006

chrisd53 said:
Didnt cross my mind actually.

Well that's okay then.

LewisWildermuth · Mar 21, 2006

chrisd53 said:
But I really liked how you guys didnt really have an answer. I honestly have not interacted with many professed Atheists before, but it is something I have wondered for a while...that is what your views on where everything came from. It is rather comforting to hear that you dont think you have it figured out...if that makes sense.

Wait a second here, go back and look at the faith icons, I think you'll find that Christians answered you too. Including myself.

Scientifically we do not know what is before the big bang. In Christianity we do not know what God was doing before creation either.

Aron-Ra · Mar 21, 2006

chrisd53 said:
Thanks for all your posts for the most part. Didnt really like the 'smart' guys comment My opinion of Christians is no different than my opinion of any other religious adherent. They believe what they do without reason, and are unreasonable in that regard, but hey...not everyone is accepting. There are Christians who reason.

Yet all your assumptions are based on faith, an idea which is not, and cannot be supported by evidence of either a logical or physical nature. Yet you take that assumption and go several steps beyond reasonable limits by further assuming that your conclusion is also infallible truth.

A reasonable man would consider all things possible. But those things which stand against all the laws of physics and logical intuition at the same time, -that originally came only from highly questionable sources, are now solely promoted by the assertions of dubious proponants, and can never be either indicated or vindicated in any way at all ever, even hypothetically? Those things should be considered highly improbable. But Christians demand all their assumptions be swallowed without question. That is unreasonable. And the religion's core requirement of unforgiving eternal torment, literally a fate worse than death, against anyone too logical or rational to believe, (regardless of their works) and the ultimate prize of riches and happiness beyond imagination -rewarded solely for gullability? Well, these don't sound like the requirments of any supreme being, nor even a superior one. These are are the terms given by a con artist trying to manipulate fearful patsies, and get out of having to work for a living.

"When it comes to B.S., big-time, major league B.S., you have to stand in awe of the all-time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims: religion. No contest!"
--George Carlin

Ioinc · Mar 21, 2006

LewisWildermuth said:
There is no such thing as "conservation of matter", if there was the sun would not work.

Sorry, please educate yourself more in this matter, you are making yourself, and by your example, all of Christianity look stupid.

No, he is not making Christianity look stupid.

The spirit of his question is valid, and I find it hard to believe you missed the point he was attempting to make.

Not only are your comments of no value to the discussion, but (ironically) they are they poor reflection on Christianity.

awesome liver · Mar 21, 2006

Ioinc said:
No, he is not making Christianity look stupid.

The spirit of his question is valid, and I find it hard to believe you missed the point he was attempting to make.

Not only are your comments of no value to the discussion, but (ironically) they are they poor reflection on Christianity.

i just wish these discussions would forever die and everyone accept science as being more valid than philosophy in matters of the natural world.

Lilandra · Mar 21, 2006

Loudmouth said:
We all realize the success of the scientific methodology over the last 250 years and we all expect this success to continue. We also recognize that theology has almost never been successful in describing nature, the Dark Ages and Galileo's trial being a good examples.

The Catholic church does have famous negative examples of being antiscience.

But, there are exemplary examples of scientific scholarship inside the Church as well. Germ Theory and the Big Bang like Hydra pointed out.

I don't think that faith automatically hinders progress. It is a dogmatic adherance to dogma over critical thinking that does this.

Sanctifying things.

KerrMetric · Mar 21, 2006

Hate to burst the Lemaitre bubble but he really wasn't the first though he did do it independently.

hasnoname · Mar 22, 2006

Aron-Ra said:
Yet all your assumptions are based on faith, an idea which is not, and cannot be supported by evidence of either a logical or physical nature. Yet you take that assumption and go several steps beyond reasonable limits by further assuming that your conclusion is also infallible truth.

A reasonable man would consider all things possible. But those things which stand against all the laws of physics and logical intuition at the same time, -that originally came only from highly questionable sources, are now solely promoted by the assertions of dubious proponants, and can never be either indicated or vindicated in any way at all ever, even hypothetically? Those things should be considered highly improbable. But Christians demand all their assumptions be swallowed without question. That is unreasonable. And the religion's core requirement of unforgiving eternal torment, literally a fate worse than death, against anyone too logical or rational to believe, (regardless of their works) and the ultimate prize of riches and happiness beyond imagination -rewarded solely for gullability? Well, these don't sound like the requirments of any supreme being, nor even a superior one. These are are the terms given by a con artist trying to manipulate fearful patsies, and get out of having to work for a living.

"When it comes to B.S., big-time, major league B.S., you have to stand in awe of the all-time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims: religion. No contest!"
--George Carlin

Sounds like you have it all figured out. And that you have come in contact with some really cool Christian people who really explained the faith to you. You generalize way too much. Do you think it was easy for me to gain my faith? Do you think I have never second guessed my faith? Faith does not begin blind for anyone of any intelligence. It does not grow (at least for me) out of being gullible, or being sold...but rather from experience. I know it might seem like a joke to you, like something so absurd and illogical, and that I have been 'brainwashed' into believing, but when I have been down, I have not been alone. I believe in God not because people convinced me of it, but I have experienced Him and could never go back to a life without Him. I am not stupid. I do not trust people easily. But how could I have so much REAL passion for something that is so 'fake'. I am not lying to myself. I am not faking it like so many out there. Dont generalize. You dont know me at all. There are Christians who reason. I came to Christ through reason. And I can have all the 'facts' in that the greatest minds can give me, and nothing will ever compare to the experience I have had following Christ.

It is not religion to me. Its a personal relationship with God .

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