Question for Amillennialists

1Tonne said:

Or it is easy to grasp for those that have been indoctrinated into an incorrect understanding.

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How about addressing what I wrote to you.

sovereigngrace said:

I agree with everything the Scriptures teach. The binding relates to the binding of Satan through the earthly ministry of Christ so that the ethnos (or Gentiles) would be enlightened. That is an easy reality to grasp for the unindoctrinated. Satan prowling about like a roaring lion means nothing as he can only harm those who get close to him. He has no power over the internal Church from all nations. The loosing of Satan happens before the literal physical visible return of Christ in the future where Satan has his last throw.

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I know we agree that the strong man was bound so that his house could be plundered and that his works and power over death were annulled. Those are very clear things taught in the gospels and epistles.

Satan prowling and looking to devour does mean something- it means persecution. Satan hindering the gospel, blinding unbelievers, deceiving as an angel of light, throwing saints in prison and even killing them was a very real reality to the saints of the first century. And thus Peter exhorted them to flee and pray for their brothers and sisters suffering around the world.

What is not taught in the gospels, book of acts, nor epistles is that satan would be locked in the abyss for a long period of time and then would be released to war against the church. that does not come from any plain teachings of the epistles nor gospels.

DavidPT said:

It's real simple, IMO. According to Revelation 20, when is satan bound?

3 options.

1) he is bound prior to the thousand years.

2) he is bound during the thousand years.

3) he is bound after the thousand years.

Only one of these options can be correct. Obviously, it is 2) that is correct, since 1), 2), and 3) can't all be correct. In order for 2) to be correct though, it obviously requires that there has to be a beginning and an ending for the thousand years, otherwise, how is it even remotely reasonable that 2) can be correct?


How can satan be bound a thousand years unless there is a beginning to it, and an ending to it?

Premil is the only view that makes sense of the thousand years. Your view certainly doesn't, nor does the view that @Spiritual Jew holds makes sense of it. Obviously, satan has not been bound in any sense during the past 2000 years if the following is pertaining to these same past 2000 years.

Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.


What precedes the persecution of the woman in verse 13? Is it not this, that he still had access to heaven in some sense, whether that be a literal sense, or some other sense? Is it reasonable that while he still had access to heaven before he is cast to the earth, that this is when he is bound a thousand years? Of course not.

for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Is it reasonable that this short time meant here, that it is during this same short time that satan is also bound a thousand years? Of course not. And that presents a major problem if this short time meant, began 2000 years ago, and that someone, such as @Spiritual Jew, insists these same past 2000 years are meaning the thousand years recorded in Revelation 20:1-6. Which then means, a short time(Revelation 12:12) is meaning the same thing as Revelation 20:1-6.

Why would the dragon be seen persecuting anyone once he is cast to the earth if Revelation 20:1-6 depicts him bound in a pit for a thousand years? And that these are allegedly involving the same time period? How does that make good sense? It doesn't. Nor does it make good sense that he is bound a thousand years before he is cast out of heaven to the earth, either.

Therefore, the only option remaining, he is bound sometime after the past 2000 years have come and gone. Not during the past 2000 years, nor prior to the past 2000 years.

As if it makes good sense, that while he is depicted bound in the pit, the following fits it to a T---having great wrath(Revelation 12:12)


And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled(Revelation 20:3)---does that sound like it is also describing this---having great wrath(Revelation 12:12)?

Of course not. Therefore, if the short time per Revelation 12:12 began 2000 years ago, one then can't insist these same 2000 years are also meaning Revelation 20:1-6, then expect some of the rest of us to take that interpretation serious.

Therefore, how can interpreters, such as @Spiritual Jew, possibly be correct about when the thousand years are meaning when they have a short time, great wrath(Revelation 12:12), involving the same time period Revelation 20:1-6 is involving? Which then means interpreters such as this, have satan having great wrath while he is depicted bound in a pit, rather than having satan only having great wrath when he is not in the pit. Obviously, only the latter makes any sense, the former certainly doesn't.

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I think it comes down to this:

Is revelation 20 brand new information, not taught in the gospels, book of acts, or epistles?

Or is it symbolic, apocalyptic literature of what was already taught in the gospels, book of acts, and epistles.

If the latter, how do you take the chronology of revelation literally and then attempt to fit the gospel and epistolic timeline into that?

The gospels and epistles teach that Satan was bound so his house could be plundered, and his works and power over death annulled, WHILE also teaching that Satan was prowling, deceiving, blinding, working through the sons of disobedience, throwing saints in prison, and even killing them, BUT Christs coming was at hand, and would come in a little while without delay, and Satan would be crushed quickly. How does one attempt to cram this square peg into the round hole of revelation 20, if revelation is to be understood as a literal chronology?

DavidPT said:

Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.


and after that he must be loosed a little season. How does one make sense of that if an actual measurable period of time is not meant by the thousand years?

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. How do you propose that they don't live again until the thousand years are finished if there is literally not even a thousand year era to finish? Does that mean they never actually live again and that John lied to us here, keeping in mind, he clearly said, until the thousand years are finished first, the rest of the dead don't get to live again in the meantime? That alone should be plenty of proof that this thousand years has to be taken in a literal sense, that it is involving a literal era of time that has a beginning and an ending, whether that be in this age or an age following this one.

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,


How can satan be loosed from his prison if there is not even a thousand years when he is in his prison?

Assuming your understanding of some of these things is correct, why is the text spouting nonsense, such as, the thousand years have a beginning, and they have an ending?

These thousand years have to represent a time unlike before this thousand years, and unlike after this thousand years, wouldn't you think? How is that possible unless the thousand years actually represent a literal era of time that has a beginning and has an ending? Whether that be in this age or in an age following this one. Either way, this thousand years has to be unlike what it was like before the thousand years, and unlike what it will be like after the thousand years, meaning during satan's little season in this case.

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Where do the gospels and epistles and book of acts teach that Satan was bound and locked in the abyss but would be released later to war against the nations? If you can provide that for me, then we can begin to talk about how long the millennium is.

claninja said:

Where does the gospels and epistles and book of acts teach that Satan was bound and locked in the abyss but would be released later to war against the nations? If you can provide that for me, then we can begin to talk about how long the millennium is.

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Let's limit the discussion further to each and every mention of Satan in the Old Testament. Why worry about the New Testament when you have the Old?

bbbbbbb said:

Let's limit the discussion further to each and every mention of Satan in the Old Testament. Why worry about the New Testament when you have the Old?

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Sure, where does the OT state that Satan will be bound in the abyss for a long period of time and then released to war against the church?

claninja said:

I know we agree that the strong man was bound so that his house could be plundered and that his works and power over death were annulled. Those are very clear things taught in the gospels and epistles.

Satan prowling and looking to devour does mean something- it means persecution. Satan hindering the gospel, blinding unbelievers, deceiving as an angel of light, throwing saints in prison and even killing them was a very real reality to the saints of the first century. And thus Peter exhorted them to flee and pray for their brothers and sisters suffering around the world.

What is not taught in the gospels, book of acts, nor epistles is that satan would be locked in the abyss for a long period of time and then would be released to war against the church. that does not come from any plain teachings of the epistles nor gospels.

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A thousand years is simply a simile for a long period of time. The figure "a thousand" is used repeatedly in Scripture to mean a long period of time or a large amount. It began at Christ's first resurrection and saw the spiritual curtailment of Satan to facilitate the great commission, which is still ongoing. Satan's "little season" represents a short period of time before the coming of Christ, including the resurrection and judgment described.

Anything that involves "a long time," "a thousand years" or thousands of years is rubbished by you because it exposes the error of Preterism. For you to accept this period as a reality would cause your doctrine to crumble. You must explain it away as a useless figment of John’s imagination, a non-event, something placed in Scripture to confuse believers. This is why Preterism should be rejected. It adds and takes away from Scripture.

There is no objectivity or consistency with Preterist hermeneutics. In fact, they do not exist. They twist each passage to fit their thinking. If it contradicts their teaching or doesn’t suit what they believe they explain it away as an illusion, as with this.

1Tonne said:

Or it is easy to grasp for those that have been indoctrinated into an incorrect understanding.

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I was indoctrinated in Pretrib and Premil from a child, until i started letting the Bible speak for itself. Now I am Posttrib Amil.

BTW:

do you accept that the wicked are held by real spiritual invisible spiritual chains in a real spiritual invisible prison?

sovereigngrace said:

A thousand years is simply a simile for a long period of time. The figure "a thousand" is used repeatedly in Scripture to mean a long period of time or a large amount.

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Correct.

Sadly, some theologians look at the number 1,000 in Revelation 20 and insist that it MUST be a literal length of time. But the book of Revelation is obviously replete with symbolism and figurative language, and so why would anyone even begin to think that this "must" be understood literally? For example, are dragons, seven-headed beasts, candlesticks, olive trees, locusts like scorpions, vials with prayer in them, blood coming out of a winepress, the seas turning to blood, precluded from being understood any other way but literally?

The numbers are often used in scripture to signify spiritual truths. One thousand signifies the fullness of whatever is in view. This spiritual significance includes the number 10, and multiples of it such as 100, 1000. The numbers 10, 100 and 1000 are "full numbers" which are even in our day used figuratively to illustrate the fullness of whatever is in view. As someone today might say, "I've told you ten times already," or "I'll love you a thousand years, or a million years." Likewise the number ten and its multiples are used to illustrate the fullness of whatever is spoken of in scripture, whether it be time, virgins, plagues, Blood, etc. For example, the days of the tribulation of the Church of Smyrna are 10 signifying the fullness of time. Again, in the parable of the 10 virgins, we see the number 10 signifies the fullness of the Church. Again, the beast that appears with 10 horns, which signifies the fullness of time that it will reign in power (horns=Power) near the end of the world. Other notable pertinent applications were the ten plagues upon Egypt, signifying the fullness of God's wrath upon it; the ten commandments, which signified the fullness of God's will and law concerning His people; or the ten talents, ten thousand saints, etc. The number 10 signifies that a full measure of something is in view.

And so considering all these things, along with the apocalyptic (uncovering) of the symbolic character of the book of Revelation, there is no question but that Christians are justified in considering a spiritual or allegorical view. In order to insist that the one thousand years of Revelation chapter 20 must be understood literally, one would first have to show that a figurative understanding is Biblically unjustified. And that cannot be done. The number 1000 is 10 multiplied by 100, and represents the fullness of this long period of time. It is the fullness of time that Satan is confined, the fullness of time (millennial) the Church reigns as the kingdom of Christ in heaven and on earth, and the fullness of time in which the rest of the dead who didn't have part in the "first resurrection" will not live again before they are raised in the second resurrection unto their judgment.

sovereigngrace said:

It began at Christ's first resurrection and saw the spiritual curtailment of Satan to facilitate the great commission, which is still ongoing. Satan's "little season" represents a short period of time before the coming of Christ, including the resurrection and judgment described.

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Rev 20:1-3
(1) And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
(2) And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
(3) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Satan's thousand years started at the Cross so that Christ could build His Church. How long did it last? Until God finishes building his church with the fullness of the Gentiles be coming in, then the thousand years for Satan's binding will come to an end and he will be loosed a little season to deceive the nations again. This short period of little season is the Great Tribulation (for the Elect) and the desolation of the church prior to the Second Coming.

sovereigngrace said:

There is no objectivity or consistency with Preterist hermeneutics. In fact, they do not exist. They twist each passge to fit their thinking. It it doesn’t suit they implain it away as an illusion, as with this.

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Agreed.

claninja said:

Sure, where does the OT state that Satan will be bound in the abyss for a long period of time and then released to war against the church?

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Where does the OT state anything at all about Satan? An argument from silence is virtually worthless especially where other substantiating texts clearly express that argument. The Saducees built their case against physical resurrection of people as well as the existence of demons solidly on the silence of the OT about these things.

bbbbbbb said:

Where does the OT state anything at all about Satan? An argument from silence is virtually worthless especially where other substantiating texts clearly express that argument. The Saducees built their case against physical resurrection of people as well as the existence of demons solidly on the silence of the OT about these things.

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Right, it would be an argument from silence if I was attempting to debate premil, who doesn’t use gospel and epistolic support in order to interpret revelation 20. An argument from silence could be worthless in this case.

Amils , on the other hand, claim to use scripture to interpret scripture, and therefore claim to interpret revelation 20 based on gospel and epistolic passages. So I’m asking amil to provide what gospel or epistolic passages claim Satan was to bound and locked in the abyss for a long period of time and then to be released to war against the church. An argument from silence would not be worthless in this case, since they claim to use the gospels and epistles to interpret the symbolic vision revelation 20. So your response to me is Irrelevant, as I’m mostly discussing this with Amils.

sovereigngrace said:

A thousand years is simply a simile for a long period of time. The figure "a thousand" is used repeatedly in Scripture to mean a long period of time or a large amount. It began at Christ's first resurrection and saw the spiritual curtailment of Satan to facilitate the great commission, which is still ongoing. Satan's "little season" represents a short period of time before the coming of Christ, including the resurrection and judgment described.

Anything that involves "a long time," "a thousand years" or thousands of years is rubbished by you because it exposes the error of Preterism. For you to accept this period as a reality would cause your doctrine to crumble. You must explain it away as a useless figment of John’s imagination, a non-event, something placed in Scripture to confuse believers. This is why Preterism should be rejected. It adds and takes away from Scripture.

There is no objectivity or consistency with Preterist hermeneutics. In fact, they do not exist. They twist each passage to fit their thinking. If it contradicts their teaching or doesn’t suit what they believe they explain it away as an illusion, as with this.

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I mean, sure let’s assume that the 1,000 years is a simile for a long period of time.

You claim to use scripture to interpret scripture so: where do the gospels or epistles or book of acts teach that Satan is locked in they abyss for a “very long time” and then released to war against the saints?

claninja said:

I mean, sure let’s assume that the 1,000 years is a simile for a long period of time.

You claim to use scripture to interpret scripture so: where do the gospels or epistles or book of acts teach that Satan is locked in they abyss for a “very long time” and then released to war against the saints?

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There is no requirement for all the same apocalyptic detail and broad symbolic language found in Revelation 20 to be listed in one chapter in the gospels, epistles or book of Acts, as you arbitrarily require. That is your habitual self-made extra-biblical demand to avoid addressing the error of Preterist beliefs and place a question mark over the inspiration and actuality of events and characters depicted in Revelation. Arguing Revelation 20 is an illusion is ridiculous. Amils prefer the motto of Paul in Apostle in Romans 4:3: “For what saith the Scripture?"

Can I remind you Scripture includes Revelation? The detail in that book is accepted as inspired and useful for truth and doctrine as any other book. Your dismissal of that book and the detail taught is fool-hearty.

2 Timothy 3:16-17: “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.”

The book of Revelation consists of a number of parallel recaps relating to the intra-Advent period. Each of these refer to different subjects, entities or aspects of God's unfolding plan during that time. That does not negate the fact that God's dealings with the beast mirrors that of Satan since Christ’s first Advent. For example, the 6th recap (Revelation 17-19) focuses in on Babylon, but also shows the destruction of all the wicked, the beast and false prophet been banished into the Lake of Fire. Satan is simply not the focus of that parallel. The focus of the last recap (Revelation 20) is God's dealing with Satan. Revelation 20 goes right back to the first resurrection (Christ). It finishes with Satan being banished to the Lake of Fire.

The fate of Satan, the beast (spirit of antichrist / mystery of iniquity) and the fallen angels (demons) are all knit together in Scripture. When Satan was banished from the Garden then all evil was. They also all came under the same spiritual subjugation at the exact same time through Christ’s earthly ministry.

When Christ bound Satan’s kingdom through His life, death and resurrection then all were bound. 2 Peter 2:4, Jude v 6, Revelation 9 and Revelation 20 all prove the whole demonic realm is currently restrained from stopping the free-flow of the Gospel. The bruising of the head of the beast (Revelation 13:3, 13:12 and 13:14) correlates with the bruising of the head of Satan 2,000 years ago through the earthly ministry of Christ (Genesis 3:15). They correspond with the spiritual binding imprisoning of Satan during the millennial period. These are figurative metaphors describing the impairment of the kingdom of darkness 2000 years ago.

When Satan was banished from heaven, so was the whole demonic realm (1/3 of the angels went with him).

Through his defeat, Satan fell from heaven (John 12:31 & Revelation 12:7-9) and is now present in the Abyss (Revelation 9:1-11 & Revelation 20:3). The abyss is not a physical geographical place. After all, physical metal chains cannot hold spirits. It is a spiritual state of restraint for spirits now. Near the end, the beast will be released from his restraints and the “deadly wound” to his head will be “healed” (Revelation 13:3, 13:12 and 13:14). This tells us that he too was bruised like Satan’s head through the life, death and resurrection of Christ.

Just like Satan’s power and influence were curtailed through the life, death and first resurrection of Christ, so too was the beast’s. The fate of the two mirror each other. The reason is, the beast is dependent upon the power of Satan to do his evil. The beast is his envoy or enforcer. At the end Satan will be released from his restraint to empower the beast to subjugate the Church, curtail the Gospel expanse and deceive the nations again. There will be a suppression of the Gospel in the last of the last days. This will result in deep persecution. But the darkest days in history have always been the brightest days in history.

When Satan is released before the second coming for a little season then so is the beast, and Satan's minions. We see the devils in Revelation 9:2-3, the beast in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12, Revelation 11:7 and Revelation 17:8, and Satan in Revelation 9:10-11 and Revelation 20:3 all being released before the second coming for a little season. Then comes the end! But Christ comes in majestic and eternal glory to overthrow the kingdom of darkness forever. The demonic realm is all killed when Satan is destroyed at the climactic second coming (Isaiah 26:19-27:1, 2 Thessalonians 2:8, Revelation 19:20, 20:9-10).

claninja said:

Right, it would be an argument from silence if I was attempting to debate premil, who doesn’t use gospel and epistolic support in order to interpret revelation 20. An argument from silence could be worthless in this case.

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This is not entirely correct though, meaning in regards to what you said about Premils not using the gospel and epistolic support in order to interpret revelation 20.

Some Premils, maybe even all Premils for all I know, use some of the following to support their interpretation of Revelation 20.

Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron ; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.


Premils typically connect this with the following in Revelation 19.

Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron : and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.


And that Premils typically connect Revelation 19:15 with that of Christ's bodily return to the earth in the end of this age. Which then means Revelation 2:26 is meaning post the 2nd coming, yet it is not meaning throughout eternity. And that Premils typically note what 'rule' means according to the Greek.

rule
poimaino
poy-mah'-ee-no
from poimhn - poimen 4166; to tend as a shepherd of (figuratively, superviser):--feed (cattle), rule.


And that Premils typically also find support of Revelation 2:26-27 via the following parable in Luke 19.

Luke 19:11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

Luke 19:15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned(typically meaning to Premils His bodily return in the end of this age), having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.

Unless one wants to insist this authority is meaning throughout all eternity, or that it is meaning only for 24 hours or less(lol), something has to prevent them from having this authority all throughout eternity, since it doesn't make good sense that this authority continues after the following is fulfilled.

1 Corinthians 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

1 Corinthians 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.


What Premils know, and that everyone should know, the thousand years when saints are living and reigning with Christ, satan is bound in the pit during that time. Therefore, if anything I submitted above proves that the thousand years are post the 2nd coming, it also proves that that is when satan is bound. Which is further proved by some of the things even you have brought up. Such as satan having saints cast into prisons. satan walking around, as a rouring lion, seeking whom he might devour. And since those things are applicable to this age and are not compatible with a satan that is bound in a pit, this further supports that satan is bound post the 2nd coming.

Not to mention, Revelation 12:12. No way is that compatible with a satan that is bound in a pit. Which then presents a major problem if verse 12 began 2000 years ago and that satan, according to some Amils, is bound in the pit these same past 2000 years. It basically implies that satan, like God, is also omnipresent, that he too can literally be in more than one place at a time. Because, clearly, being bound in a pit, and walking about freely, this describes different places, not the same place.

DavidPT said:

It's real simple, IMO. According to Revelation 20, when is satan bound?

3 options.

1) he is bound prior to the thousand years.

2) he is bound during the thousand years.

3) he is bound after the thousand years.

Only one of these options can be correct. Obviously, it is 2) that is correct, since 1), 2), and 3) can't all be correct. In order for 2) to be correct though, it obviously requires that there has to be a beginning and an ending for the thousand years, otherwise, how is it even remotely reasonable that 2) can be correct?


How can satan be bound a thousand years unless there is a beginning to it, and an ending to it?

Premil is the only view that makes sense of the thousand years. Your view certainly doesn't, nor does the view that @Spiritual Jew holds makes sense of it. Obviously, satan has not been bound in any sense during the past 2000 years if the following is pertaining to these same past 2000 years.

Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.


What precedes the persecution of the woman in verse 13? Is it not this, that he still had access to heaven in some sense, whether that be a literal sense, or some other sense? Is it reasonable that while he still had access to heaven before he is cast to the earth, that this is when he is bound a thousand years? Of course not.

for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Is it reasonable that this short time meant here, that it is during this same short time that satan is also bound a thousand years? Of course not. And that presents a major problem if this short time meant, began 2000 years ago, and that someone, such as @Spiritual Jew, insists these same past 2000 years are meaning the thousand years recorded in Revelation 20:1-6. Which then means, a short time(Revelation 12:12) is meaning the same thing as Revelation 20:1-6.

Why would the dragon be seen persecuting anyone once he is cast to the earth if Revelation 20:1-6 depicts him bound in a pit for a thousand years? And that these are allegedly involving the same time period? How does that make good sense? It doesn't. Nor does it make good sense that he is bound a thousand years before he is cast out of heaven to the earth, either.

Therefore, the only option remaining, he is bound sometime after the past 2000 years have come and gone. Not during the past 2000 years, nor prior to the past 2000 years.

As if it makes good sense, that while he is depicted bound in the pit, the following fits it to a T---having great wrath(Revelation 12:12)


And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled(Revelation 20:3)---does that sound like it is also describing this---having great wrath(Revelation 12:12)?

Of course not. Therefore, if the short time per Revelation 12:12 began 2000 years ago, one then can't insist these same 2000 years are also meaning Revelation 20:1-6, then expect some of the rest of us to take that interpretation serious.

Therefore, how can interpreters, such as @Spiritual Jew, possibly be correct about when the thousand years are meaning when they have a short time, great wrath(Revelation 12:12), involving the same time period Revelation 20:1-6 is involving? Which then means interpreters such as this, have satan having great wrath while he is depicted bound in a pit, rather than having satan only having great wrath when he is not in the pit. Obviously, only the latter makes any sense, the former certainly doesn't.

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David, do you ever remember anything I tell you? We have been over this before multiple times.

I'm sure you understand that the New Testament was not originally written in English, but rather was originally written in Greek. The Greek word translated as "short" in Revelation 12:12 (oligos - Strong's G3641) is a different Greek word than the one translated as "little" in Revelation 20:3 (mikros - Strong's G3398). The Greek word "oligos" can mean "relatively, but not literally few" or "a limited number or size".

It is used in this verse:

Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few (oligos) are chosen.

In this verse Jesus was talking about those who are called to salvation. Many, or a multitude, are called to salvation but relatively few are chosen. Is that talking about literally few people being saved? No, right? It's only "few" in relation to the "many" who are called. In Revelation 7:9 John describes the number of saved people that he saw as "a multitude". So, this is a term that is used relatively.

So, in Revelation 12:12 it's not talking about a literally short amount of time that Satan has to take out his wrath on "the remnant of" the woman's "seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ" (Rev 12:17). It's taking about the relatively short or limited amount of time that he has to do that before time runs out and he is cast into the lake of fire (Rev 20:10). The time period coincides with the time following Satan and his angels being cast out of heaven. They were cast out of heaven long ago already! Before that happened Satan was able to accuse believers in heaven, but after that no one can make any charge/accusation against God's elect (Romans 8:33).

In contrast to that, the Greek word "mikros", translated as "little" or "short" in Revelation 20:3 to described the time/season he has after being loosed, refers to a literal small number or amount. A literal small amount of time in this case. So, you need to make use of Hebrew and Greek resources in order to find out the real meaning of words in cases like this or else you end up just assuming the words always mean the same thing just because they are the same in English.

Also, you seem to think that it says Satan is bound from having great wrath and taking out his wrath on believers. Where does it say that? Nowhere. So, why act as if it does?

DavidPT said:

This is not entirely correct though, meaning in regards to what you said about Premils not using the gospel and epistolic support in order to interpret revelation 20.

Some Premils, maybe even all Premils for all I know, use some of the following to support their interpretation of Revelation 20.

Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron ; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.


Premils typically connect this with the following in Revelation 19.

Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron : and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.


And that Premils typically connect Revelation 19:15 with that of Christ's bodily return to the earth in the end of this age. Which then means Revelation 2:26 is meaning post the 2nd coming, yet it is not meaning throughout eternity. And that Premils typically note what 'rule' means according to the Greek.

rule
poimaino
poy-mah'-ee-no
from poimhn - poimen 4166; to tend as a shepherd of (figuratively, superviser):--feed (cattle), rule.


And that Premils typically also find support of Revelation 2:26-27 via the following parable in Luke 19.

Luke 19:11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

Luke 19:15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned(typically meaning to Premils His bodily return in the end of this age), having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.

Unless one wants to insist this authority is meaning throughout all eternity, or that it is meaning only for 24 hours or less(lol), something has to prevent them from having this authority all throughout eternity, since it doesn't make good sense that this authority continues after the following is fulfilled.

1 Corinthians 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

1 Corinthians 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

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I believe you are misinterpreting 1 Corinthians 15:24. You are interpreting it as if it's talking about literally all rule, authority and power being put down, but that isn't what it is talking about. That is talking about Jesus putting down (destroying) all of the rule, authority and power of His enemies. It doesn't say that even Jesus or the disciples won't have any rule or power at that point. Of course He will and of course they will for eternity.

Surely, you understand that someone can be in power, but still have to answer to someone above them? That will be the case at that point. Jesus will still have authority and power, but will be subject unto the Father. Similarly, believers that are referenced in Jesus's parable will have authority, but will be subject to Jesus and to the Father.

sovereigngrace said:

There is no requirement for all the same apocalyptic detail and broad symbolic language found in Revelation 20 to be found in the gospels, epistles or book of Acts, as you arbitrarily require. That is your habitual self-made extra-biblical demand to avoid addressing the error of Preterist beliefs and place a question mark over the inspiration and actuality of events and characters depicted in Revelation. A

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Ah so when you demand scriptural evidence from others it’s ok, but when I demand it of you, it’s arbitrary. Got it.

But, I take it since you had to preface with this statement, you have zero, nada, and zilch when it comes to providing gospel or epistolic that demonstrates that the apostles believed Satan would be locked up in the abyss for a long time and then released for a short time to war against the church. Everything you provided in your copied and pasted response provides absolutely zero evidence that the authors of the gospels and epistles believed Satan would be released in the future war against the church.

But it is good to note that you still retain your premil hermeneutics of interpreting parts of revelation 20 without any gospel or epistolic evidence.

DavidPT said:

Some Premils, maybe even all Premils for all I know, use some of the following to support their interpretation of Revelation 20.

Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron ; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.


Premils typically connect this with the following in Revelation 19.

Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron : and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.


And that Premils typically connect Revelation 19:15 with that of Christ's bodily return to the earth in the end of this age. Which then means Revelation 2:26 is meaning post the 2nd coming, yet it is not meaning throughout eternity. And that Premils typically note what 'rule' means according to the Greek.

rule
poimaino
poy-mah'-ee-no
from poimhn - poimen 4166; to tend as a shepherd of (figuratively, super

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Revelation is not a gospel nor part of the epistles.

claninja said:

Ok. And you didn’t respond to all my points either………Anyways…….

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You didn't respond to ANY of mine. But, you probably expected me to respond to yours after that.

claninja said:

As to the 1,000 years, or long unknown period of time in your case, in which Satan is bound and locked In the abyss: it is no where found in the gospels, epistles, nor book of acts. So yes, the 1,000 years of Satan being locked in the abyss don’t exist in reality because neither The gospels, book of acts, nor epistles teach it, and so I’m not attempting to fit into reality, chronologically, something that isn’t taught in clear language in the first place.

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Why does it talk about the thousand years ending if it's not talking about an actual period of time (not necessarily a literal thousand years, but a period of time with a beginning and ending)?

Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

How does your view line up with the part I bolded here? How can a non-existent time period be followed by "a little season" of time? That makes no sense whatsoever. Please address that.

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

This verse also indicates that something happens after the thousand years ends. How can anything happen after a non-existent time period? How can a non-existent time period expire/end? How can Satan be loosed when a non-existent time period ends? Do you have any answers to these questions at all? Just saying it's all a parable, etc. does not answer these questions.

claninja said:

The gospels and epistles teach that the strongman was bound so his house could be plundered, and that Satan’s power and works were annulled WHILE AT THE SAME TIME teaching he was deceiving, prowling, hindering the gospel, blinding the minds of unbelievers, throwing the saints in prison, and even killing them, BUT the coming of the lord was near and Satan would be quickly crushed.

Therefore, since I don’t view revelation 20 as new information, then I simply believe it is a parable, about the gospel truths, that doesn’t need to be understood in strict literal chronological.

Of course, in the story, the 1,000 years are part of the narrative of the parable. The idea of Satan’s “little season” is that the persecution and warring is only a short suffering compared to inheritance through the first resurrection, and ultimately through the vindication of church by God. Apocalyptic literature is often symbolic imagery of the church under persecution that provides hope. It only makes sense then to call Satan’s season “little” for the hope of the church.

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You are doing nothing to explain the wording of the text. It explicitly indicates that the thousand years ends and then AFTER THAT Satan is loosed for "a little season" of time at the end of which fire comes down from heaven to destroy Satan's followers. What you're saying here does not address that at all.