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question about venerating icons

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Michael G

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I am not sure what the norm is, but yes I venerate icons when I am sick. Icons are a sacred meeting place between God and the saints and man, and as such I would especially encourage those who are ill to venerate them. I doubt anyone ever got sick from venerating an icon that had been venerated by a sick person.
 
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nutroll

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I have no worries about receiving communion when sick, or when I know someone else is sick. If we truly believe that the bread and wine become the Body and Blood of Christ, then we believe that there can be no corruption in the Body and Blood of Christ. There was a big scare when AIDS was first brought to our attention, and that was what the church put forth to calm people down about receiving communion from a communal cup.

As for Icons, I don't think the same principle applies. It is possible for God to protect us from getting sick, but it may be better not to put others at risk. I have always erred on the side of caution and stayed home if I knew that I was sick with a communicable disease.

There is a prayer in St. Basil's Liturgy where the priest specifically prays for those who are absent for reasonable cause, and I think that being sick, and being worried about getting others sick is a reasonable cause. Just my opinion on this, you may want to check with your priest though.
 
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Monica child of God 1

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I never worry about kissing icons or the communion spoon. If it were possible to catch something, we would have died out long ago. Priests and deacons must consume all of the Eucharist left in the chalice after everyone else has communed. They would be sick all the time if there was any chance of catching something from the common cup.

M.
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QUESTION:

This question does not mean to be offensive, but the issue of the possibility of spreading disease from contact with icons and the cross during veneration, and also from the communion spoon, has come up more than once from inquirers at our mission parish. One couple did not join the church because of their concern with receiving communion from a common chalice and spoon. Another inquirer was willing to accept that the Eucharist would not spread disease, but they were concerned with venerating icons, and asked if it was absolutely necessary to venerate icons and the cross by kissing them, or would it be acceptable to bow close to them or make some other form of physical contact beside kissing.

Especially in modern times, where the spread of disease is understood better and there are diseases such as herpes and AIDS, we need to understand this concern, be able to properly explain it to people and ourselves, and understand what alternatives are acceptable.

Could you please address how we should view the possibility (or impossibility) of the spread of disease from (1) veneration of icons and (2) from the common chalice and spoon?


ANSWER:

I hope that you will not consider my answer to be brief or glib, but there are only a few things one can say concerning these matters.

With regard to the reception of Holy Communion:

If one receives Communion in the proper manner, one would tilt one's head back and open one's mouth as wide as possible, thereby allowing the priest to simply drop the Body and Blood of Christ into the communicant's mouth without ever coming into contact with the spoon.

Even when the spoon does come into contact with one's mouth, it is highly unlikely that viruses such as AIDS would be transmitted since it has been widely reported that the AIDS virus is rendered impotent when it comes into contact with air or water; it has been widely reported that even the transmittal of AIDS through saliva is rare; the alcohol content in the wine which becomes the Blood of Christ, combined with the boiling hot water added to the chalice right before the reception of Holy Communion, kills most viruses and other germs.

We, as Orthodox Christians, firmly believe that what is being received is the Body and Blood of Christ. It is a matter of faith that one cannot contract a disease from the Body and Blood of Christ.

On the lighter side, the priest or, in parishes that have a deacon, the deacon consumes the remaining Eucharist after it is distributed to the faithful. There are no cases of clergy becoming infected as a result of consuming the Holy Gifts after the Liturgy.

I believe that quite a number of years ago the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese had checked all of this out with a group of doctors, all of whom drew the same general conclusions that the transmittal of disease via the chalice -- especially the AIDS virus -- is not possible.

With regard to the kissing of icons and the cross: I have never heard of anyone who has become ill as a result of this. Of course, there may be cases in which individuals with serious flus or other ailments may wish to refrain from doing so.

I have been a parish priest for 25 years and have never encountered these concerns, nor have I ever feared for my health as a result of receiving or consuming the Eucharist or kissing an icon or cross -- and, believe me, priests come into contact with such things much more regularly than the laity. While I have heard from time to time concerns about the Eucharistic spoon, it would seem that the reception of the Eucharist directly into the mouth from the priest's hand, which may very well come into contact with a communicant's tongue and lips, may very well be less sanitary. The same would go for those confessions in which the faithful partake of the chalice by drinking directly from it.

Following the Eucharistic Liturgy and the consumption of the remaining Holy Gifts by the priest or deacon, the chalice, diskos, and spoon are usually cleanse with boiling hot water and carefully covered, protecting them even from the air, dust, etc.

While I would acknowledge that there are a host of viruses and diseases making the rounds in today's world, it would seem that in times past matters were somewhat worse. The Bubonic plague and Black Death come to mind here. So are the more recent times in which TB, polio and other diseases were rampant. If one focuses their faith on Jesus Christ, one must assume that His Body and Blood, which is the "fountain of life and immortality," simply cannot be the cause of illness, disease, or death.

Finally, I would ask an individual who would opt not to explore entrance into the Orthodox Church because of the Communion spoon if he or she is equally cautious about eating in public places. There have been far more reported incidents of people acquiring hepatitis, ecoli, and other diseases and conditions at restaurants, receptions, picnics, etc. than from the Eucharist. Just last week in Chicago quite a number of restaurants were shut down after rodent droppings were discovered in their kitchens -- and some of these were well known, reputable establishments. Consistency would dictate that those who fear the Eucharistic spoon might also refrain from eating in any public establishments. After all, doing so implies that we put our faith in the owners, managers, and servers and their willingness to make sure that everything is sterile and virus free. Such, of course, is not always the case. [Recently there was a case in our area of 80 people who had contracted hepatitis at a wedding reception. It was subsequently discovered that one of the cooks was a carrier. Makes one wonder!]
 
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Khaleas

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I've honestly been less sick in the past year since I became Orthodox.
I was always sick before, any bug that came around, I got. I think it's partially because I stress a bit less after becoming Orthodox and partially because I'm exposed to so many bugs that my immunity has become better. When I was little my parents guarded me from every person with the smallest sneeze so I had no immunity from your average cold or flu. I was 16 when I had chickenpox because my parents had pulled me out of school when it went through everyone else (so when my little brothers got it, I finally did, about 10 years too late). So please parents, while it stinks to have a sick child, let them catch the random bug now and again and they won't miss a ton of class in college or later in life.
 
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Michael G

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She said:
This would worry me to.

Is it also true that you all receive Holy Communion on a spoon? Is it the same spoon?

Yes, we do all receive the Eucharist on the same golden spoon as everyone else. If you truly believe the Eucharist to be the Body of Christ (and all that that means) then you should have no issue receiving the Eucharist on a spoon for 2 reasons. 1. No one's hands are holy enough to touch the Body of Christ and 2. God is Holiness and Being unto himself and thus it is impossible for the spoon to transmit illness.
 
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1 - you can venerate an icon without ever touching it
2 - females especially are supposed to wipe their lips before kissing the icons - it is not a "wet your lips and pucker" kinda thing.
3 - I do not know of anyone that would leave slobber/snot on an icon
4 - if you are taking communion properly you open your mouth like a little bird - you do not take it like an old man eating soup.
5 - IF you are worried about illness, wash your hands when you go to the potty - you have a FAR greater chance of getting sick from not doing this than from something at church (and very few people do it- eep!)
 
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Vasileios

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This used to be an issue in Greece many many years ago. Since then there have been signs to confirm that there is no possible way a disease can be transmitted through the Eucharist.

I especially like the story of the Spinalonga island. Its a small island very near the shores of Crete (where I live). For many years it was the place they took lepers to live away, this happening until quite recent times in Crete (previous century). The priest who visited them always shared the same chalice and spoon with the lepers and never contracted anything. I believe there were some cases of miraculous healings too but I am not sure. I have talked to many people from the area who knew the last priest who administered the people there...

If you look in the church fathers or especially the desert fathers and the gerontikon books there are many stories about the Eucharist that are major eye-openers! :)

That said, look at how many babies share the same spoon with everybody and I have never heard in history of any disease cases. This coming from a member of a family of 7 children, all receiving communion from a very early age...

I think the "rules" about the head tilting back and wide open mouths serve more as a means to avoid scandalizing the laity and actually assisting the priest, not as an actual precautionary measure...


But these are difficult times, it is hard to balance in one's head theology and modern rationalization. Its why we must never trust our head but rather our Mother Church if (like me) we are unable by ourselves to put complete trust in God...
 
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Michael G

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kamikat said:
Thanks for the answers! I think he point is moot at this point. This cold is getting worse, not better. I think I'll will be spending the rest of the day in bed. Who knows what tomorrow will bring.

kamikat

Did you take any vitamin c?
 
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ClementofRome

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Additional question concerning kissing icons:

When I went to DL last week, I did notice that most who kissed the icons kissed their hand and touched the icon and then kissed their hand again (at least I think that this was the procedure), but when it came to venerating the cross at the end, it was a lip kiss on the cross.

Is the hand transferring the kiss a recognizably correct method? Is it only in certain traditions?
 
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Matrona

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ClementofRome said:
Is the hand transferring the kiss a recognizably correct method?

I sure hope so. :) I do that, myself, when there are candles near whatever it is I'm venerating, since I have long hair and I wear a scarf.
 
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