Question about the apographa

[Jamza]

Hello, I know Roman Catholics accept the apographa as part of Scripture, but I was wondering why the following books are omitted fro the cannon:

3 + 4 Macabees
Psalm 151
1 + 2 Esdras

I know there's more, but I can't recall them I'm afraid

 

[Alexis OCA]

Hello, I know Roman Catholics accept the apographa as part of Scripture, but I was wondering why the following books are omitted fro the cannon:

3 + 4 Macabees
Psalm 151
1 + 2 Esdras

I know there's more, but I can't recall them I'm afraid

In most Bibles after the KJV and Douay-Rhiems
Esdras 1 = Ezra
Esdras 2 = Nehemiah

Regarding Psalm 151: I think that is just a question of numbering.

Don't know about 3 & 4 Macabees.

 

[Jamza]

Thanks; to clarify the list, the following books are in the Greek and Slavonic Bibles, but not Catholic or Protestant:

1 Esdras (called 2 Esdras in Slavonic, 3 Esdras in the Vulgate appendix
Prayer of Manasseh (This is in fact in the Vulgate appendix too)
Psalm 151, (follows Psalm 150 in Greek bibles)
3 Maccabees

2 Esdras (called 3 Esdras in Slavonic, 4 Esras in the Vulgate appendix)

4 Maccabees (only found in appendix to Greek bibles)

Phew! Lightning research lol, impressed with my scholarship? hehe , wow, I'm only going to feel this clever once, I'm going to enjoy it!

Anyway, does anyone have any ideas why these books were excluded? I have the texts, if there's any questions, and I'd like to say I'm completely impartial in the matter, I'm just trying to make up my own mind what Scripture is.

 

[Alexis OCA]

Thanks; to clarify the list, the following books are in the Greek and Slavonic Bibles, but not Catholic or Protestant:

1 Esdras (called 2 Esdras in Slavonic, 3 Esdras in the Vulgate appendix
Prayer of Manasseh (This is in fact in the Vulgate appendix too)

Psalm 151, (follows Psalm 150 in Greek bibles)


2 Esdras (called 3 Esdras in Slavonic, 4 Esras in the Vulgate appendix)


Anyway, does anyone have any ideas why these books were excluded?

THEY ARE NOT EXCLUDED IN CATHOLIC BIBLES. See my post above.

 

[Jamza]

In most Bibles after the KJV and Douay-Rhiems
Esdras 1 = Ezra
Esdras 2 = Nehemiah

Regarding Psalm 151: I think that is just a question of numbering.

Don't know about 3 & 4 Macabees.

GregChant, as I said, the two Esdra books are not Ezra and Nehemiah, I am aware they are sometimes called 1 + 2 Esdras, and in the Bibles where they are called this, the further two Esdras books are 3 + 4. I do not believe 3 +4 Esdras are in any other Catholic Bibles except the Vulgate appendix.

Pslam 151:

I was small and young amongst my brothers,
and the youngest
My hands made a harp, my fingers fashioned a lyre.
And who will declare it to my Lord? The Lord himself; it is he who hears.
It was he who sent his messenger and took me from my father's sheep, and anointed me with his anointing oil.
My brothers were handsome and tall, but the Lord was not pleased with them.
I went out to meet the Philistine, and he cursed me by his idols.
But I drew his own sword; I beheaded him, and removed reproach from the people of Israel.

The foot note reads: 'This Psalm is ascribed to David as his own composition (though it is outside the number), after he had fought in single combat with Goliath.

I do not believe this text is found in Catholic bibles, as both Catholic and Protestant Bibles have only 150 Psalms.

3 + 4 Maccabees simply are not found in any Catholic Bibles

 

[Acceptance]

I got this from somewhere (I'm so sorry I can't quote the author) It's a good summary of how the Bible as the Christian Church knew it for 1500 years, came to exist. Catholics continue to use this version, but typically Protestant denominations prefer to use the version of the OT that the Jew's used (as explained at the end of this quotation). There was also a council of Carthrage (I believe this was the one) sometime around 300 AD when the Christian Church considered the Bible officially closed and the texts that were included or excluded were decided. Someone else can probably explain this better, so I'll let them do that.

In Catholic parlance, "apocrypha" is used only to speak about books that are not included in the Catholic bible. The term we use is "deuterocanonical". We speak of the "canon of scripture", which is the official list of books to be included in the bible. Protocanonical books are the books contained in the Hebrew bibles as well as in the Greek bibles. Deuterocanonical books, are the books found in the Greek bibles and not in the Hebrew bibles.

The deuterocanonical books are the seven books Tobit, Judith, First Maccabees, Second Maccabees, Wisdom, Sirach, and Baruch plus the additional texts in Esther and Daniel that are found in the Catholic Old Testament but not in the Hebrew canon.

Greek-speaking Jews

As you know, as early as the 6th Century BC, the Jews began to be dispersed throughout Asia Minor and around the Mediterranean Sea. By the time Jesus was born, most Jews lived outside of Palestine and most of those spoke the common language of that day, which was Greek. About 200 years before that, the Greek-speaking Jews of Alexandria, in Egypt decided to translate the Bible into Greek because most of them could not understand the original Hebrew text.

The Septuagint

The result of this work is called the Septuagint Version of the Bible. "Septuagint" comes from a Latin word meaning "Seventy" because it was believed that Seventy Wise Men had done the translation.

They used the Hebrew texts available at that time. Some of these texts have been totally lost. Some of them exist only in fragments. Additionally, some Greek speaking Jews composed writings that came to be accepted as inspired by the Jews of the Dispersion .

At the time of Christ, the Septuagint was the most current version of the Bible, and was even used in Palestine, where many Greek-speaking Jews lived as well.


Early Christianity and the Jews

As the apostles moved to the frontiers of the Roman Empire to spread the Gospel, they used the best ready-made tool that they had : the Septuagint Version of the Bible that included books and passages not in the Hebrew version. The early Christian Church used that Bible exclusively. The New Testament frequently quotes from the Septuagint.

As I said, it was also universally used by Jews as well, especially those living outside of Palestine. However, after the destruction of Jerusalem, in 70 AD, there took place a great re-thinking of the Jewish religion . One of the things they did was to expel Christians from the Synagogue. Another thing was to accept only the Scriptures that had been written in Hebrew.


The early Christian Church used that Bible exclusively. The New Testament frequently quotes from the Septuagint. And when the Pope asked St. Jerome to translate the Bible into Latin, from the original texts, he took as his standard the Septuagint, translating from the Hebrew where it was available and from the Greek where the Hebrew was not available.

 

[Jamza]

Ah yes, I understand about the other apocrapha books, the ones I don't understand are those in the Greek/Slavonic bibles but not the Catholic

 

[Paul S]

Hello, I know Roman Catholics accept the apographa as part of Scripture, but I was wondering why the following books are omitted fro the cannon:

3 + 4 Macabees
Psalm 151
1 + 2 Esdras

Because they're not inspired, and the deuterocanonicals are.

 

[Filia Mariae]

Hi Jamza

Hello, I know Roman Catholics accept the apographa as part of Scripture,

We do include the Deuterocanonicals, which Protestants call the Apocrypha. We don't call them the Apocyrpha because that was a term instituted by Martin Luther, centuries after the canon had been established.

but I was wondering why the following books are omitted fro the cannon:

3 + 4 Macabees
Psalm 151
1 + 2 Esdras

I know there's more, but I can't recall them I'm afraid

The short answer is that they were not regarded as canonical, based upon the same criteria used to evaluate all Biblical texts and "candidates" for Biblical texts. While the Deuterocanonicals had been conisdered canonical from the earliest days of the Church, these texts were not, although there was debate, as there was about virtually all texts included and not included in the canon.

I don't specifically know why each of these texts was deigned non-canonical, you may have to do some more academic research and reading of the early councils to get specific reasons.

Sorry I couldn't be of more help.

 

[Jamza]

I did see that all except 3 and 4 Mac. were written after AD 1, thats prob something to do with it, because the Jewish canon is only valid until Jesus birth

 

[FullyMT]

I did see that all except 3 and 4 Mac. were written after AD 1, thats prob something to do with it, because the Jewish canon is only valid until Jesus birth

That would probably have something to do with it.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

The Church did indeed arrive at the same list every time it was an issue from the earliest records we have. There were groups that argued for adding or subtracting but they always ended agreeing on the same list we have today. However technically the canon was only "officially" closed in respone to the reformation, which is why some protestants attempt to say we "added" books. It is only when looking at the historic record that we can say it never changed and had there been no reformation, it might still be "open" today. My understanding is there was always hope for discovery of new manuscripts that drove wanting to leave it open.

 

[plainswolf]

The Decree of Pope St. Damasus I, Council of Rome. 382 A.D....

"It is likewise decreed: Now, indeed, we must treat of the divine Scriptures: what the universal Catholic Church accepts and what she must shun.

The list of the Old Testament begins: Genesis, one book; Exodus, one book: Leviticus, one book; Numbers, one book; Deuteronomy, one book; Jesus Nave, one book; of Judges, one book; Ruth, one book; of Kings, four books; Paralipomenon, two books; One Hundred and Fifty Psalms, one book; of Solomon, three books: Proverbs, one book; Ecclesiastes, one book; Canticle of Canticles, one book; likewise, Wisdom, one book; Ecclesiasticus (Sirach), one book; Likewise, the list of the Prophets: Isaiah, one book; Jeremias, one book; along with Cinoth, that is, his Lamentations; Ezechiel, one book; Daniel, one book; Osee, one book; Amos, one book; Micheas, one book; Joel, one book; Abdias, one book; Jonas, one book; Nahum, one book; Habacuc, one book; Sophonias, one book; Aggeus, one book; Zacharias, one book; Malachias, one book. Likewise, the list of histories: Job, one book; Tobias, one book; Esdras, two books; Esther, one book; Judith, one book; of Maccabees, two books.

Likewise, the list of the Scriptures of the New and Eternal Testament, which the holy and Catholic Church receives: of the Gospels, one book according to Matthew, one book according to Mark, one book according to Luke, one book according to John. The Epistles of the Apostle Paul, fourteen in number: one to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, one to the Ephesians, two to the Thessalonians, one to the Galatians, one to the Philippians, one to the Colossians, two to Timothy, one to Titus one to Philemon, one to the Hebrews. Likewise, one book of the Apocalypse of John. And the Acts of the Apostles, one book. Likewise, the canonical Epistles, seven in number: of the Apostle Peter, two Epistles; of the Apostle James, one Epistle; of the Apostle John, one Epistle; of the other John, a Presbyter, two Epistles; of the Apostle Jude the Zealot, one Epistle. Thus concludes the canon of the New Testament.

Likewise it is decreed: After the announcement of all of these prophetic and evangelic or as well as apostolic writings which we have listed above as Scriptures, on which, by the grace of God, the Catholic Church is founded, we have considered that it ought to be announced that although all the Catholic Churches spread abroad through the world comprise but one bridal chamber of Christ, nevertheless, the holy Roman Church has been placed at the forefront not by the conciliar decisions of other Churches, but has received the primacy by the evangelic voice of our Lord and Savior, who says: "You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it; and I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you shall have bound on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you shall have loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven." This list of 46 Old Testament and 27 New Testament books was reconfirmed in the Council of Carthage in 397 A.D..

The Council of Hippo in 393 reaffirmed the canon put forth by Pope Damasus I...AD 393: Council of Hippo. "It has been decided that besides the canonical Scriptures nothing be read in church under the name of divine Scripture.

But the canonical Scriptures are as follows: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua the Son of Nun, Judges, Ruth, the Kings, four books, the Chronicles, two books, Job, the Psalter, the five books of Solomon (included Wisdom and Ecclesiastes (Sirach)), the twelve books of the Prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, Ezekiel, Tobit, Judith, Esther, Ezra, two books, Maccabees, two books."(canon 36 A.D. 393).

At about this time St. Jerome started using the Hebrew text as a source for his translation of the Old Testament into the Latin Vulgate.

The Third Council of Carthage reaffirmed anew, the Canon put forth by Pope Damasus I...AD 397:Council of Carthage III. "It has been decided that nothing except the canonical Scriptures should be read in the Church under the name of the divine Scriptures. But the canonical Scriptures are: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, Ruth, four books of Kings, Paralipomenon, two books, Job, the Psalter of David, five books of Solomon (Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Songs, Wisdom, Sirach), twelve books of the Prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, Ezekiel, Tobit, Judith, Esther, two books of Esdras, two books of the Maccabees."(canon 47 A.D. 397).

It is to be noted that the book of Baruch was considered by some Church Fathers to be a part of the book of Jeremiah and as such was not listed separately by them.


J.M.J.
plainswolf

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Yes we have the same list today as in Rome 382. We still must understand that Council of Rome just created the official list for use by the Church. Then every single Council that addressed the issue after that and up until Trent reaffirmed the same list. There were several movements to add or remove books before and after the Council of Rome, but they always ended up affirming the same list. The Church had no reason to "close" the list to the possibility of adding other books until someone came along and started trying to remove books and add text during the reformation. Prior to that it could reasonably be argued that we could not say whether or not another book might be discovered that we then would want to consider adding to the canon as more revelation of God. Am told it was along that line that they left that issue open, that there might be further books or other records revealed and the canon then revised. Trent made the list officially established or closed by the Church in response to the reformation.

Understanding what and how it happened prepares one to answer when protestors say we did not create a canon until 1546 which would mean ours was after thiers. That is a severe distortion of history and truth. The retort is not about when it was settled in our Church unless you want to mention why it was not settled until then. My thoughts are it actually is more remarkable that in over 1500 years of considering the issue the Church never created another list. Among men and especially in organizations making decisions over time, such a result could only point to God, the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Can you imagine Baptist considering a canon over 1500 years? We would have a zillion versions today.

 

[Jamza]

Thank you very much for the info. Coincidentally, I do attend a Baptist church hehe.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Thank you very much for the info. Coincidentally, I do attend a Baptist church hehe.

And I used to as well, so we both understand what I meant by that. If a portion of the Church disagreed with that Church's canon, they would just move across the street and start another with their own canon.

 

[Jamza]

Might I ask why you attend a Catholic Church now? Its just that in my experience theres a very low number who transfere between the two.

 

[Veritas]

Might I ask why you attend a Catholic Church now? Its just that in my experience theres a very low number who transfere between the two.

I can't answer for DrBubbalove but I can tell you that most Protestant aren't aware that there have been large numbers of converts in recent years to the Catholic Church. Of those, a surprising number have been Protestant clergy. Baptists are well represented among the converts. You might try checking out the following sites for further information:

http://www.chnetwork.org/

The Coming Home Network designed for Protestant clergy seeking information and entrance into the Catholic Church.

http://www.catholic-convert.com/DesktopDefault.aspx

A place for converts (and cradle Catholics!) to learn and discuss the Catholic faith. The owner of the site is Steve Ray who was a Baptist. I would strongly recommend his book, Crossing the Tiber!

These are just a few. Happy learning!

 

[anawim]

Hello, I know Roman Catholics accept the apographa as part of Scripture, but I was wondering why the following books are omitted fro the cannon:

3 + 4 Macabees
Psalm 151
1 + 2 Esdras

I know there's more, but I can't recall them I'm afraid

In addition to the 5 that you listed, there is also the Prayer of Manassas.

The Jewish people did not have a universal canon of Scripture. The Pharisees used the equivalent of the 39 books that Protestants use. (Because of a difference in numbering, it actually amounts to 24.) The Saduccees and Samaritans, on the other hand, accepted only the 5 books of Moses. The Greek speaking Jews used the Septuagint which had about 80 books (depending on the numbering).

St. Athanasias, the first person to complie a list of books with all 27 of the NT books, also compiled a list of OT books that amount to 46 books. A series of local councils over the next 45 years also compiled this exact same list of 46 books. The last of these was approved by the Pope.

However, because these were local, and not an ecumenical council, the Eastern churches continued to use the longer 80 book canon. When the West and East split, the West kept the 73 book canon.

The first time the 73 book canon of Scripture was formalized in an ecumenical council was in the 15th century at the Council of Florence.

 

[anawim]

I did see that all except 3 and 4 Mac. were written after AD 1, thats prob something to do with it, because the Jewish canon is only valid until Jesus birth

There was no "Jewish canon" until the Council of Jamnia/Javneh in 90 AD. Even then, there was some continued fluidity, in that Rabbi's still quoted from Sirach and Wisdom into the 2nd. century AD