Question about Romans 5:12

[OkieAllDay]

For those who deny inherited guilt is spoken of in Romans 5:12 and that we inherit a sin nature, but not guilt for Adam's sin. What do you do with the ending of the verse that says, "because ALL sinned"? Thanks

 

[HTacianas]

For those who deny inherited guilt is spoken of in Romans 5:12 and that we inherit a sin nature, but not guilt for Adam's sin. What do you do with the ending of the verse that says, "because ALL sinned"? Thanks

We inherit a propensity to sin. And all act on it, therefore all have sinned.

 

[OkieAllDay]

We inherit a propensity to sin. And all act on it, therefore all have sinned.

But babies have not sinned yet. So is it saying for those old enough - all have sinned?

 

[HTacianas]

But babies have not sinned yet. So is it saying for those old enough - all have sinned?

There is an exception to most any rule.

 

[OkieAllDay]

There is an exception to most any rule.

Just double checking. Thanks

 

[sandman]

For those who deny inherited guilt is spoken of in Romans 5:12 and that we inherit a sin nature, but not guilt for Adam's sin. What do you do with the ending of the verse that says, "because ALL sinned"? Thanks

Unfortunately you don’t see it in the KJV but the definite article is used in the Greek and it's referring to the sin and the death which is passed on to all.

It’s rather a lengthy explanation and I don’t have the time to go through it all but I will try to highlight it…..



When the article is used it refers back to the original sin and the death.

The article originally came from the demonstrative pronoun (such as “this” or “that”)…. which calls attention with special emphasis to a designated object. Its function is to point out an object or draw attention to it. It's used with a word that makes the word stand out distinctly.

Whenever the Greek uses the article, it points out individual identity…. it marks a specific object of thought.

The Greek article points here, in conjunction with the context …points to the original sin and death.

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

We know that Adam physically went on to live for 930 years. But what died was the image of God that Adam was created in. And Jhn 4:24 says God is spirit……………What died was spirit.

Many times Christians will say we were created in the image and likeness of God….. that is not true.

Adam was…. but he lost it ….that is the death.

Gen 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:

We are not born with spirit ....we are born body and soul only ….But because of what God brought to pass through Jesus Christ accomplishments we are born again of the spirit of God. ….Now we are in God’s image

 

[Servus]

But babies have not sinned yet. So is it saying for those old enough - all have sinned?

Even babies sin actually. Toddlers disobey and defy their parents. When a toddler asks if they did something, like made a mess, or scribbled on a wall, or took something they shouldn't have, they will lie and say no.

 

[OkieAllDay]

Even babies sin actually. Toddlers disobey and defy their parents. When a toddler asks if they did something, like made a mess, or scribbled on a wall, or took something they shouldn't have, they will lie and say no.

There is debate whether a toddler can sin, but I don't think there is any debate whether a baby can sin. Do you think if a mom tells her new born to stop crying and the baby continues to cry that the baby is sinning because the baby is disobeying her parents?

 

[Servus]

There is debate whether a toddler can sin, but I don't think there is any debate whether a baby can sin. Do you think if a mom tells her new born to stop crying and the baby continues to cry that the baby is sinning because the baby is disobeying her parents?

I'd say that accountability and judgment comes into this. Does God judge babies as accountable?

 

[dzheremi]

For those who deny inherited guilt is spoken of in Romans 5:12 and that we inherit a sin nature, but not guilt for Adam's sin. What do you do with the ending of the verse that says, "because ALL sinned"? Thanks

I say Christ's incarnation redeemed and transformed all who share in the humanity which He assumed, which is true humanity (following, e.g., St. Gregory Nazianzen's famous aphorism "That which is not assumed is not saved"). To quote (Ps.-?) Gregory Thuamaturgus' exposition from his Twelve Topics on Faith (emphasis added):

Wherefore He says, "Be of good cheer, I have overcome the world." (John 16:33) And this He said, not as holding before us any contest proper only to a God, but as showing our own flesh in its capacity to overcome suffering, and death, and corruption, in order that, as sin entered into the world by flesh, and death came to reign by sin over all men, the sin in the flesh might also be condemned through the selfsame flesh in the likeness thereof; and that that overseer of sin, the tempter, might be overcome, and death be cast down from its sovereignty, and the corruption in the burying of the body be done away, and the first-fruits of the resurrection be shown, and the principle of righteousness begin its course in the world through faith, and the kingdom of heaven be preached to men, and fellowship be established between God and men.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

The doctrine of Original Sin, as understood and taught in Catholicism, is about
the fallen state of the world since sin first entered the world, however that may
have happened. Some believe in literal story of Adam and Eve while others, like
myself, believe it to be allegorical.

We can reject this belief or accept it, but the reality is, the world has been in
an immoral state since the existence of mankind.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

But babies have not sinned yet. So is it saying for those old enough - all have sinned?

The verse is saying that sin spread to every person because of one person.

It implies that all babies from that one person's bloodline sin. In Romans 8 it is explained that sin spread to all of creation through Adam.

Since it was Adam who sin entered through, all in this case means all.

 

[Clare73]

For those who deny inherited guilt is spoken of in Romans 5:12 and that we inherit a sin nature, but not guilt for Adam's sin. What do you do with the ending of the verse that says, "because ALL sinned"? Thanks

It is not inherited guilt, it is the imputed guilt of Adam, to all those born of (the first) Adam, as the pattern (Ro 5:14) of the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ to all those born of (the last Adam) Jesus Christ (Ro 5:18-19).

 

[Stephen3141]

For those who deny inherited guilt is spoken of in Romans 5:12 and that we inherit a sin nature, but not guilt for Adam's sin. What do you do with the ending of the verse that says, "because ALL sinned"? Thanks

Again, I would rather leave alone the question of HOW we inherit a fallen nature. Only THAT we do.

Paul is clear that the first sin of Adam, is of a different type than Adam's... "14 even over those who did not sin after the pattern of the trespass of the sin of Adam...."

I think that Paul's major point is that the first sin of Adam, was a type, and the apposing type is the righteous life of Jesus.

Again, I would argue that eventually, because of the sin of Adam, sin came to all mankind. Different theologies may argue different ways in which the fallen nature is related to all mankind starting to live out sin. But, I do not see this as a core doctrine of Christianity. I leave THAT, and the responsibility for asserting on that point, to the theologians.

 

[OkieAllDay]

I'd say that accountability and judgment comes into this. Does God judge babies as accountable?

Well if they are born guilty then the answer should be yes. If babies are not guilty of sin yet then the answer should be no in my opinion.

 

[BNR32FAN]

For those who deny inherited guilt is spoken of in Romans 5:12 and that we inherit a sin nature, but not guilt for Adam's sin. What do you do with the ending of the verse that says, "because ALL sinned"? Thanks

The verse says death came to all because all men sinned. This means that death didn’t come to all because Adam sinned, it came to all because everyone sinned.

““Now behold, he has a son who has observed all his father’s sins which he committed, and observing does not do likewise. He does not eat at the mountain shrines or lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, or defile his neighbor’s wife, or oppress anyone, or retain a pledge, or commit robbery, but he gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with clothing, he keeps his hand from the poor, does not take interest or increase, but executes My ordinances, and walks in My statutes; he will not die for his father’s iniquity, he will surely live. As for his father, because he practiced extortion, robbed his brother and did what was not good among his people, behold, he will die for his iniquity. “Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity?’ When the son has practiced justice and righteousness and has observed all My statutes and done them, he shall surely live. The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭18‬:‭14‬-‭20‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[BNR32FAN]

Well if they are born guilty then the answer should be yes. If babies are not guilty of sin yet then the answer should be no in my opinion.

I’ve never seen any verses that imply that babies are born guilty of committing any sins.

 

[dzheremi]

The fathers testify to what it means to be born into a world and race affected by the fall and the introduction of sin into the world. In the holy liturgy of St. Basil (4th century), for instance, the priest proclaims "For no one is pure, even if his life be but a day!" This effectively communicates the reality of the effect of sin on us and our world, without making a baby or for that matter anyone else personally guilty of any particular sin that they themselves did not commit. "For no one is pure" is really not the same as "For everyone is guilty."

 

[ViaCrucis]

There is debate whether a toddler can sin, but I don't think there is any debate whether a baby can sin. Do you think if a mom tells her new born to stop crying and the baby continues to cry that the baby is sinning because the baby is disobeying her parents?

This depends on whether one understands Concupiscence to be sin itself, or merely the capacity and gravitation toward sin.

In Lutheranism we tend to understand that Concupiscence is, itself, sin--and thus infants are guilty of it. We don't merely enter the world capable and gravitationally disposed toward sin; but that the rottenness of our inward passions is real sin and, therefore, real guilt. We are gravitationally disposed toward sin, but that's because there is already sin right there in our members. We enter into this world homo incurvatus in se, "man bent inward toward himself". God's commandments call us outward, to love, the love of God and neighbor; but we are turned inward--and that is sin. Which is precisely why the Law cannot justify us, the Law can in telling us what is good and right, in reality condemn us. That is the curse of the Law, not because the Law is bad (God forbid!) but because the Law is good and I am not.

Therefore there needs to be something other than the Law to make us right with God, the Law cannot do it. We cannot find any righteousness in ourselves; we need another righteousness, a righteousness apart from ourselves, a righeousness that is given us to us as pure gift. The Gospel reveals to us that righteousness, it is the righteousness of Jesus Christ. And that righteousness is ours by the grace of God alone (Sola Gratia), which we receive through faith alone (Sola Fide). So that it is Christ alone who has done all and accomplished everything already for us (Solus Christus).

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Clare73]

Well if they are born guilty then the answer should be yes. If babies are not guilty of sin yet then the answer should be no in my opinion.

They are born guilty by the imputed guilt of Adam (Ro 5:12-14, 18-19).