Question about purgatory and hell

[Ryuuko9]

From what I've been taught, purgatory and hell are two different places where a soul is separated from God, hell being the worst place. I then found this statement today, from Romans 8:38-39:

"I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the Love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord".

This statement suggests that nothing would ever separate us from Christ Jesus. How can we justify the existence of purgatory and hell in light of this scripture?

Thanks!

 

[Adammi]

It says that nothing can separate us from the Love of Christ, not Christ himself.

~Adam

 

[Ryuuko9]

It says that nothing can separate us from the Love of Christ, not Christ himself.

~Adam

Isn't Christ love personified?

 

[Ryuuko9]

Isn't Christ love personified?

(sorry for the double posting, CF is going nuts)

 

[Rising_Suns]

Adam is correct. This passage is simply stating that God will never abandom His love for us. This does not mean that we cannot, through our free will, reject this love from Him.

 

[lionroar0]

This is a link to newadent.org in regards to purgatory http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm#I

 

[frettr00]

That could also contribute to the belief that even Hell is temporary and all will eventually return back to God.

 

[Ryuuko9]

So if God's love never abandons any soul, even the souls that are cast in hell, does this mean that a soul in hell would, if it wills it, seek and gain redemption?

 

[Rising_Suns]

So if God's love never abandons any soul, even the souls that are cast in hell, does this mean that a soul in hell would, if it wills it, seek and gain redemption?

No. They already made their choice to reject God and will never turn back. Even in the presence of constant torture, these souls find a sort of sadistic pleasure in it while maintaining a perpetual distaste and resentment towards God.

Their hearts are forever hardened, which is why hell is eternal.

 

[Rising_Suns]

From what I've been taught, purgatory and hell are two different places where a soul is separated from God, hell being the worst place. I then found this statement today, from Romans 8:38-39

In case you wanted more info on hell and purgatory, here's 2 short exerts which may help describe them....

23. The Nature of Purgatory
All Christians can agree that sin does not exist in heaven; “nothing impure shall enter into heaven” [Rev 21:27], but as we stand now, we live in a fallen nature. Even after we have surrendered our lives to Christ and are washed clean by Baptism, we still sin. Even though our salvation may have already been granted if we died right now, we still continue to falter. So long as we live on this earth, we always will live in a fallen nature. Therefore, in order to enter heaven, our purified spirit must first be separated from our fallen nature, and this is exactly what purgatory is; the purifying process by which our perfected spirit is freed from our flesh. It is not a second chance, but rather, a state of final purification for those who are already bound to enter eternal glory.

"All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. The Church gives the name purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned" [Catechism of the Catholic Church 1030].
​

Even though the word “purgatory” is never mentioned in the Bible, neither is the word “trinity”, yet all Christians accept the Trinitarian doctrine as truth because together with Sacred Scripture and Apostolic Tradition, the reality of the trinity can be inferred, and likewise, so can the existence of purgatory. For example, on a number of occasions, we are encouraged to pray for the dead (2 Macc 12:44, 2 Tim 1:16, 1 Cor 15:29), but souls in hell or heaven cannot benefit from our prayers. So we are forced to conclude that these souls are in some place other than heaven or hell. Secondly, the idea that we go directly to heaven or hell when we die is, in fact, a recent man-made tradition, one that spurred from the reformation, and when we examine Scripture, we do not find a single passage that confirms that this is true. What we do find, however, is consistent evidence for the existence of a purgative state after death.

" the work of each will come to light, for the day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each one's work. If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire." [1 cor 3:12-15]
​

Some may argue that purgatory somehow takes away from the sacrifice Jesus made, but this is another false assertion. Jesus is purely the source of our salvation. Purgatory is simply the means by which Christ’s plan of salvation is, in part, carried out. Going back to the theme park analogy, purgaotry would come in after we got on the ride; going from earth to heaven. So Christ is still the source of this whole series of events.

"By one sacrifice he has made perfect for ever those who are being made holy." [Hebrews 10:14].

“Make every effort to…be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord” [Heb 12:14]
​

Scripture is clear. Although we are made perfect in Christ, we still need to be made holy. Why? Again, “nothing unclean shall enter into heaven”. So we absolutely must be made holy by God before we can enter heaven. And what has not been finished in this life will be finished in purgatory. So you see, purgatory is in itself a profound grace. Without it, we would all have to be perfect and righteous saints in order to enter heaven. In fact, to deny the existence of purgatory implies a poor idea of God and a flattering idea of self; it is a delusion to think we are worthy enough to enter into heaven as we now stand. This again goes back to the premise of natural law; God is not illogical; He is logical and perfectly balanced. He is perfectly merciful and perfectly just. So although God’s perfect mercy allows us entrance into heaven by the blood of Jesus Christ, His perfect justice requires this purgative state for the souls upon entrance; “you will not be released until the last penny has been paid” [Matt 5:26] As in the vision of purgatory, Jesus appeared to Saint Faustina and said; “My mercy does not want this, but my justice demands it.”




24. The Nature of Hell
Time and time again, Jesus makes it abundantly clear that hell is a very real place, a place we most definitely do not want to end up in; “Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.” [Matt 10:28] The bible is also clear that many choose this path; “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the road is broad that leads to destruction, and those who enter through it are many. How narrow the gate and constricted the road that leads to life. And those who find it are few.” [Matt 7:13] As the Catechism states; “Hell's principal punishment consists of eternal separation from God in whom alone man can have the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.” [CCC. 1057]

A natural first reaction would be to question why such a place exists. Why would an all-loving and merciful God doom someone to eternal punishment? To answer this question, it is essential to understand the fact that God gave us the free will to make this choice on our own. He does not doom us to hell, but rather, we doom ourselves by rejecting Him while continuing in our vices and sins. God is perfectly just, and He wants desperately for us to be united with Him in heaven, but He is not going to force us, otherwise our love for Him would be meaningless. In this sense God is merely granting us the desires of our heart. If we choose to ignore God in this life, we will be granted eternity without Him in the next.

“We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves…. To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self- exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called ‘hell’”. [ Catechism of the Catholic Church]
​

 

[Ryuuko9]

No. They already made their choice to reject God and will never turn back. Even in the presence of constant torture, these souls find a sort of sadistic pleasure in it while maintaining a perpetual distaste and resentment towards God.

Their hearts are forever hardened, which is why hell is eternal.

Dear Rising Suns,

Thank you for taking the time to look into this for me. I really appreciate it.

For conversation's sake, however, if God's love never abandons any soul, and that for a moment a soul in hell becomes aware of this love and repents, that soul would be able to gain access to Heaven, right?

 

[FullyMT]

For conversation's sake, however, if God's love never abandons any soul, and that for a moment a soul in hell becomes aware of this love and repents, that soul would be able to gain access to Heaven, right?

As R_S said earlier, if a soul is in hell, it means that the heart will be FOREVER hardened against God. This means that the soul will never repent.

 

[Ryuuko9]

As R_S said earlier, if a soul is in hell, it means that the heart will be FOREVER hardened against God. This means that the soul will never repent.

Right, and I do understand that. I'm just trying to fullest extent of the scripture, and nothing else. Thanks for your feedback Fully MT.

 

[Rising_Suns]

Yes, if per chance a sole in hell were to repent, then I'm sure God would have mercy on the soul. But as previously stated, this simply is never going to happen. The souls in hell will always harbor a resentment towards God and never humble themsevles to repent and ask for forgiveness. That's why they are in hell. They chose to deny God, and since God does not force us to love Him, He grants these souls their choice to be separated from Him for eternity.

 

[Benedicta00]

From what I've been taught, purgatory and hell are two different places where a soul is separated from God, hell being the worst place. I then found this statement today, from Romans 8:38-39:

"I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the Love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord".

This statement suggests that nothing would ever separate us from Christ Jesus. How can we justify the existence of purgatory and hell in light of this scripture?

Thanks!

So do you think the verse means no one is damned to hell?

Nothing can separate us from God’s love, nothing but our free will choice. We choose to go to hell and we also choose to go to purgatory too. By avoiding our opportunities here to grow in the love of God, we chose purgatory and by rejecting God’s love altogether, we chose hell. So no, nothing can separate us on God’s end, nothing but we can reject him, don’t you agree?

 

[artnalex]

With regards to human beings:

The problem with the idea of someone changing their mind after death is that when we die - all sense of time stops. Hence, outside of our lives there is no time, as we define it.

Remember, time is the measurement of change. When we die there is no time left, so there is no chance of change. So it would be impossible for any human being to "change" their minds after they die.

 

[Benedicta00]

So if God's love never abandons any soul, even the souls that are cast in hell, does this mean that a soul in hell would, if it wills it, seek and gain redemption?

That would be like asking if Satan will ever repent.

Once you look into the face of God you can never go back. You leave him and go to hell, he does not leave you or send you there. Nothing can separate him from you, except you.

When we meet the Lord he is going to judge each of us with absolute justice and then we will know where we belong and we will go there willingly.

The soul who does not want mercy will receive justice. Souls who go to hell go there because heaven is not what they want.

When in hell you will be wallowing in your misery, cursing yourself and God for your stupid choices. It is not a form of repenting, it's bitterness.

The way I look at it is, it is no different than on earth. We try to reach souls, to tell them about the love of God and they don’t want to hear it, Church is boring, obeying God is no fun ect. But we know from theses types that really and truly they are miserable inside but they enjoy being miserable. Hell to me will be this a trillion times magnified.

 

[Benedicta00]

With regards to human beings:

The problem with the idea of someone changing their mind after death is that when we die - all sense of time stops. Hence, outside of our lives there is no time, as we define it.

Remember, time is the measurement of change. When we die there is no time left, so there is no chance of change. So it would be impossible for any human being to "change" their minds after they die.

Yes, that is correct.

 

[geocajun]

Saint Augustine once said in regards to what happens at death "Our Love is our Weight" - meaning if we love the world, we will stay here. If we love God, we will rise to be with Him. I have always thought that was a beutiful way to say it

Also, along with what everyone else has said, it is important to look at purgatory as a "state", rather than a "place".
Those in purgatory are saved. They are just in a state of purgation.

The souls in hell cannot be saved. The pains of hell are eternal - and that is a matter of dogma.

 

[artnalex]

Yes, that is correct.

I know.