Question about Protestantism and Catholicism concerning logic and coherence

[BjorkIsCool]

Is Protestantism illogical and incoherent? Yes or No?
Is Roman Catholicism logical and coherent? Yes or No?

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Protestant or Catholic, human "logic" has been, and will continue to be a detrimental to faith. In my experience, when men try to justify doctrine by logic, faith takes a back seat.

Therefore, in the "logic of men", Christianity is illogical; in the "logic of God", it is logic in it's purest form, perfect and complete.

God Bless,

Mark

 

[BjorkIsCool]

I'm meaning: that Protestantism came out of no where in the C16th while Catholicism comes out of the original church.

 

[Anoetos]

Protestant or Catholic, human "logic" has been, and will continue to be a detrimental to faith. In my experience, when men try to justify doctrine by logic, faith takes a back seat.

Therefore, in the "logic of men", Christianity is illogical; in the "logic of God", it is logic in it's purest form, perfect and complete.

God Bless,

Mark

Said like a true Lutheran, Mark!

I tend to be less sanguine about the ability of logic and human reason to really ascertain truth than many of my confreres so I tend to agree.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Said like a true Lutheran, Mark!

I tend to be less sanguine about the ability of logic and human reason to really ascertain truth than many of my confreres so I tend to agree.

Thanks my friend! We are not so different, in so many ways!

God bless!

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I'm meaning: that Protestantism came out of no where in the C16th while Catholicism comes out of the original church.

The origins of true reformation, that of the likes of Hus and Luther had nothing to do with human reason, rather they were looking at doctrine and dogma in the light of Scripture alone. Human reason only became a factor with the Reformed and Armenian movements that followed the Moravians and the Lutherans. Moravians and Confessional Lutherans share way more doctrine and tradition with Rome and the EO than with all the Protestant denominations put together.

 

[Anoetos]

Is Protestantism illogical and incoherent? Yes or No?
Is Roman Catholicism logical and coherent? Yes or No?

On the one hand, I cannot think of a more coldly logical and rigidly coherent system of doctrine than that which is laid out in Calvin's Institutes, on the other, as has been shown, Lutheranism remains warmly mistrustful of the ability of reason to discern truth.

On the one hand, I cannot think of a more coldly logical and rigidly coherent system of doctrine than that which is laid down in the Summa Theologica of Thomas Aquinas; on the other hand, many of the great saints of the church, east and west, were nearly "zen" in their insistence on the ultimate inaccessibility, rationally speaking, of God (Therese, John of the Cross, Gertrude, Amma Syncleta, the list goes on...).

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Your signature; Verbum Domini Manet in Aeternum--The Word of the Lord endures forever, says it all! This is the only fixed point of reference that we have, dogma and the thoughts of men have been in constant flux, Verbum Domini, Scripture has not. The Cannon of Scripture was established by the Fathers of the Church not through Logic, but through discernment. Scripture supports Scripture, and Scripture interperets Scripture.

Protestants interperet Scripture using both logic and historical critical methods. That is where the trouble starts. Next thing we know, the real presence dissapears, so does Confession and absolution, baptism becomes just a symbolic act, and in it's extreem, the denial of our Lord's divine nature.

Logic is a very dangerous thing when applied to Scripture.

Mark

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Protestant or Catholic, human "logic" has been, and will continue to be a detrimental to faith. In my experience, when men try to justify doctrine by logic, faith takes a back seat.

Therefore, in the "logic of men", Christianity is illogical; in the "logic of God", it is logic in it's purest form, perfect and complete.

God Bless,

Mark

What Mark said, lol




.

 

[tz620q]

Is Protestantism incoherent? Yes or No?

Since Protestantism is a general term used to cover many different denominations, one would expect some incoherence.

Is Roman Catholicism coherent? Yes or No?

I would expand this to say Catholicism as a denomination (Roman and Eastern Catholicism) is coherent in that it is monolithic. I would have to qualify this by saying that this coherence is doctrinal and not praxis.

Is Protestantism illogical? Yes or No?

An impossible question. One could make a certain doctrinal claim and then try to determine how logical that claim is; but to apply that claim to Protestantism, you'd have to start with coherency of belief within Protestantism and then tack on an agreed upon logical system to prove or disprove this claim. I've been reading a book on moral ethics within Protestantism and Catholicism and it states that the two groups have a different system of logic. The Catholic system traces back to natural theology and the ability of man to use his reason to determine truth. The mainline Protestant system rejects reason as being too warped by sin to know truth. It relies on Biblical evidence alone as it's norma normans

Is Roman Catholicism logical? Yes or No?

Sorry, but I am too biased to make a valid point here.

 

[BjorkIsCool]

Thanks for your answers. I asked the question because i was reading a James Joyce book and at one point a character asks another if he intends to become a protestant and he answers:

"I said that i had lost the faith, but not that i had lost selfrespect. What kind of liberation would that be to forsake an absurdity which is logical and coherent and to embrace one which is illogical and incoherent?".

Was wondering why he says one is logical/coherent and other not.

 

[MamaZ]

Logical in what way? Human logic?

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Thanks for your answers. I asked the question because i was reading a James Joyce book and at one point a character asks another if he intends to become a protestant and he answers: Was wondering why he says one is logical/coherent and other not.

Thanks for posting the quote.

Logic is dependent on the point of view. As a Lutheran, I could use logic to say that we are right because it is logical to follow Scripture.

A Calvinist could say the same thing.

RCs will also say that they follow Scripture in a logical way, and through Logic also say that it makes sense to follow also the cumulative traditions handed down by the fathers of the Church.

And on and on for all denominations, atheists, agnostics, and even heathens.

Therein lies the problem. The destination that logic takes you to depends on where you start off from, your point of view. Often we can use Logic to take us to where we want to go, right or wrong.

How do I know my denomination is right? The only logical answer is Faith.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Thanks for your answers. I asked the question because i was reading a James Joyce book and at one point a character asks another if he intends to become a protestant and he answers: Was wondering why he says one is logical/coherent and other not.

I think Joyce's statement reflects Catholic logic, not logic in general. I have found that most Catholics find their faith to be supremely logical. In contrast, they find Protestantism (however they might define it) to be supremely illogical and incoherent.

As a non-Catholic Christian I could make the case for the logic of many branches of Protestantism and for the contradictions and inconsistencies within Catholic theology.

Does that mean that one is inherently illogical and the other logical? I think not. As others have pointed out here, the presuppositions which are used determine to a very large extent the outworking of the theology. The principal difference, of course, is the role of the Bible which, in Protestantism is supreme and in Catholicism is on a par with Tradition and the Magisterium.

 

[Anoetos]

Thanks for your answers. I asked the question because i was reading a James Joyce book and at one point a character asks another if he intends to become a protestant and he answers: Was wondering why he says one is logical/coherent and other not.

It's a very interesting quote and just goes to show that even as great an artist and thinker as Joyce undoubtedly was is not above ideological prejudice, or to be more generous, ignorance.

An atheist friend of mine, discussing Christianity says something similar, to paraphrase, "I guess Catholicism sort of makes sense but Protestantism doesn't seem to." Of course, he, like Joyce, was raised Catholic and his point of reference is not classical Protestantism but American Evangelicalism.

It would be good to know what kind of "Protestantism" Joyce has his character saying this about. There are very base forms around as I am sure anyone would agree, more pietistic movements, strong on experience and weak on proposition for example.

That there are varieties of Catholicism like this too would have been known to someone like Joyce. As someone who undoubtedly lived inside the more intellectual and academic strands of Catholicism, his natural point of reference would have been scholasticism, and not necessarily the extremities of certain flagellant sects.