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Question about Luther's beliefs

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Dominus Fidelis

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(Originally posted in Lutheran forum...I wanted two perspectives...)

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I was reading a magazine article on Luther since yesterday and it said Luther disagreed with those wanting to seperate faith and works. It had him quoted as saying something like "Faith that is not in action is not faith at all."

That was suprisingly refreshing and I think its the same thing that my Church teaches.

Is the article correct?
 

Dominus Fidelis

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Second question...I was reading through the 95 Thesis and it seemed like Luther was protesting against the "Pope" selling indulgences for salvation. I was confused about this because Luther was a doctor of theology and the Church does not teach that indulgences get people out of Hell...rather they remit some of the punishments of purgatory, should a person end up there...and people in purgatory are "saved" they just have to be cleansed before entering Heaven. Now, did the Church teaching change after the Reformation or did Luther misunderstand or what? Obviously the Church admits that selling indulgences was a ridiculous abuse, but indulgences are still given today (for say, reading the Bible for 30 minutes) and they do not "save" anyone from Hell.
 
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geocajun

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Defens0rFidei said:
(Originally posted in Lutheran forum...I wanted two perspectives...)

--

I was reading a magazine article on Luther since yesterday and it said Luther disagreed with those wanting to seperate faith and works. It had him quoted as saying something like "Faith that is not in action is not faith at all."

That was suprisingly refreshing and I think its the same thing that my Church teaches.

Is the article correct?
I have always understood Luther to have taught the opposite of that so I would say that it is incorrect.
Luther felt that neither good works, or bad works had any effect on ones salvation, but rather it was their faith, and their faith alone which would save them.
 
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Michelina

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Defens0rFidei said:
Second question...I was reading through the 95 Thesis and it seemed like Luther was protesting against the "Pope" selling indulgences for salvation.

HI, DF! :wave: WE'VE MISSED YA!

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14539a.htm

"History presents few characters that have suffered more senseless misrepresentation, even bald caricature, than Tetzel. "Even while he lived stories which contained an element of legend gathered around his name, until at last, in the minds of the uncritical Protestant historians, he became the typical indulgence-monger, upon whom any well-worn anecdote might be fathered" (Beard, "Martin Luther", London, 1889, 210). For a critical scholarly study which shows him in a proper perspective, he had to wait the researches of our own time, mainly at the hands of Dr. Nicholas Paulus, who is closely followed in this article. In the first place, his teaching regarding the indulgences for the living was correct. The charge that the forgiveness of sins was sold for money regardless of contrition or that absolution for sins to be committed in the future could be purchased is baseless. An indulgence, he writes, can be applied only "to the pains of sin which are confessed and for which there is contrition". "No one", he furthermore adds, "secures an indulgence unless he have true contrition". The confessional letters (confessionalia) could of course be obtained for a mere pecuniary consideration without demanding contrition. But such document did not secure an indulgence. It was simply a permit to select a proper confessor, who only after a contrite confession would absolve from sin and reserved cases, and who possessed at the same time facilities to impart the plenary indulgence (Paulus, "Johann Tetzel", 103).

As much cannot be said about his teaching regarding indulgences for the dead...."

Luther's essential fallacy was a faith-alone based salvation. The Indulgence controversy merely fit in with his "Rome is wrong about Works" marketing strategy.
 
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Epiphanygirl

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From what little I've read on his position, I'm at a loss. He seems to have changed his mind a few times. I know that he was ill towards the end, maybe that accounts for his anger?
I once heard that he even asked for a Priest on his deathbed, is this accurate, or just a folk tale?:scratch:
 
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Michelina

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Epiphanygirl said:
From what little I've read on his position, I'm at a loss. He seems to have changed his mind a few times. I know that he was ill towards the end, maybe that accounts for his anger?

Fr. Martin was a very confused man. He was absolutely 'neurotic' about his dread of hell. And he was certain that he would never overcome his obsessive weakness in matters of the flesh. Read his "Table Talk" to learn more about this tortured man.

I once heard that he even asked for a Priest on his deathbed, is this accurate, or just a folk tale?:scratch:

His family reported that he asked for and received the Last Rites on his deathbed. Today, Protestants deny this.
 
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Epiphanygirl

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Michelina said:
Fr. Martin was a very confused man. He was absolutely 'neurotic' about his dread of hell. And he was certain that he would never overcome his obsessive weakness in matters of the flesh. Read his "Table Talk" to learn more about this tortured man.



His family reported that he asked for and received the Last Rites on his deathbed. Today, Protestants deny this.
If that is the case, he died a Catholic then? Oh dear:o That would mean his followers are actually following a "belief" that he, himself reversed positions on.
 
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Michelina

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Epiphanygirl said:
If that is the case, he died a Catholic then? Oh dear:o That would mean his followers are actually following a "belief" that he, himself reversed positions on.

All we know is that his family at the time of his death reported his return to the Church. Thye themselves thereafter lived as Catholic but sometime later their descendants became Protestants.

Of course, Protestant believers would prefer to think the reports untrue. It has always puzzled me that they don't regard him even more highly than they do.
 
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thereselittleflower

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Defens0rFidei said:
(Originally posted in Lutheran forum...I wanted two perspectives...)

--

I was reading a magazine article on Luther since yesterday and it said Luther disagreed with those wanting to seperate faith and works. It had him quoted as saying something like "Faith that is not in action is not faith at all."

That was suprisingly refreshing and I think its the same thing that my Church teaches.

Is the article correct?
I think it helps to remember that Luther may have been manic depressive, most probably bi-polar, and much of what he wrote was like night and day when compared to what else he wrote . .

Personally, I think that Luther used extreme langauge to try to get his points across, and in so doing, overstated things many times . .. then later, you find that he seems to hold a contrary opinion . . like that of faith and works. .

Someone provided a quote from Luther regarding faith and works in which Luther made this comparison . .

Faith and works are like what heat and light is to fire . . inseperable . . .

Yet, he saw Fath as a causatve factor, and good works as the result . . both necessary, but he would never go so far as to meet Catholicism's position on it ever again . . He got awfully darn close though in some things he had to say about it.



Peace in Him!
 
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thereselittleflower

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Michelina said:
All we know is that his family at the time of his death reported his return to the Church. Thye themselves thereafter lived as Catholic but sometime later their descendants became Protestants.

Of course, Protestant believers would prefer to think the reports untrue. It has always puzzled me that they don't regard him even more highly than they do.
Michelina . . I know Lutherans deny this is true . . but I have heard this . . do you have sources you can point us to for this information?

Thanks!


Peace in Him!
 
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Xpycoctomos

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As manyt here have already said, Luterh was a confusing man. I agree with ThereseLF that he often used extremes to prove a point. He once said something like "If you sin, do it right" going on to say that we shouldn't just do "little sins" but the major ones. This sounds extreme but his point was not that we should sin big but that we shouldn't snuff off what we assume to be "little sins" because a sin is a sin is a sin in Luther's eyes. As a former Lutheran, I can appreciate the man. He was genious (perhaps too much for his own good) and a bold man for Christ who many very excellent points. But he often let his boldness get the best of him and, depsite his many excellent points and gift of language, he too often contradicted himself leaving much to be desired for anyone who studies him (IMO).

But let's remember that he was one man (with a few followers) taking on the Roman Catholic Church, not only an ecclesiastical body but, for all practical purposes, an amazing political body (much like Constantinople in the East). No one can deny that the Western Church at that time was in need of a major wake-up call (a reform of praxis rather than doctrine). Luther, being one guy taking this all on by himself, was bound to make a few (a lot of?) errors along the way. Anyone would have... and did (Calvin et al.).

I also have to say that, despite his interesting sayings, he is sometimes MAJORLY misquoted. There is, apparently, a myth going around that he said, on his death bed, that this (the Reformation) was all a big mistake and that he wish he never had done it. Now, it is POSSIBLE that he said this (because of his track record), but what people are probably referring to is when he said something to the effect of (refferring to the translation of the Bible "Now every handmaiden and manservant will think they can interpret the Bible for themselves" and also he said, "In getting rid of one Pope we now have 1000s of Popes" (ie, people who interpret the Scriptures for themselves). But this does not conclude that he regretted the Reformation. He would perhaps see it as the lesser of two evils with unfortunate consequences, but not a total mistake. (By the way, if he did actually say this, I would love to see the quote and where it was found. I mean, that's good stuff then :))

In the end, I would just say that Luther was a victim of his own anger/pride and culture and the craziness that existed in the Medieval Church. I wouldn't call him a Saint or a Monster.

Just some thoughts on the matter from someone who grew up believing that Luther was nothing less than the 13th Apostle ;)

John
 
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Dominus Fidelis

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The Poster Formally Known as JamesH (Cause I can't spell the other name)-

That was a great post, thanks.

Pope Leo was apparently not a clergy man at all, but a prince that got his position through politics only and he spent all of the Church's money on stupid things. Then he had to make more money, so he started the indulgence selling business. Not good...and the results of that are Luther getting (rightfully) angry and starting to complain. I've even read that Luther didn't want to schism in the beginning, but he was branded a heretic and had to run away. Later he did support a schism, but his earlier writings did not support it.

Anyway, I think the whole situation is horrible and there is a lot of blame to put on the Church and Pope Leo that we Catholics sometimes overlook in favor of putting the whole thing on the "insane Luther," IMHO.
 
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Dominus Fidelis

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Michelina said:
All we know is that his family at the time of his death reported his return to the Church. Thye themselves thereafter lived as Catholic but sometime later their descendants became Protestants.

Of course, Protestant believers would prefer to think the reports untrue. It has always puzzled me that they don't regard him even more highly than they do.

I thought his wife was a former nun that ran away from the Church over some of its "bad teachings." Are you saying she returned to Catholicism or do you mean Luther's children or what? :scratch:
 
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Xpycoctomos

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I've even read that Luther didn't want to schism in the beginning, but he was branded a heretic and had to run away. Later he did support a schism, but his earlier writings did not support it.


I read this too in many places. As a former Lutheran I was taught this. As I began to look for something more grounded in history (a more "Catholic" version of Lutheranism) I began to realize that very serious and historically aware Lutherans consider themselves Catholics in exile and look forward to the day they can return to Rome (when issues they still see as problems are resolved, one of them being the current view of the Popes Universal authority). I think that is a more balanced, historical and honest view for Lutherans to take (although 95% of them would adamantly -sp?- deny this straight away due to their increasing and unfortunate romaphobia). Such a view held me on as a Lutheran for a few more months... then it was time to give up the act and come "home."
I thought his wife was a former nun that ran away from the Church over some of its "bad teachings."
This is true and well documented.
 
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Irenaeus

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Xprycoctomos (James H)

Welcome! Nice to see you on OBOB. :) Again, I thank you for your kind reception on TAW.

You were saying how Lutherans are like "Catholics in Exile, waiting to come back to Rome." I think that at least among some, that is true. The Lutheran/Catholic joint proclamation on justification in 1996 was a huge step in our ecumenical relations.

Unfortunately, I'm afraid that 300 years of bad Protestant European polemics, with stories of avaricious bishops, lascivious priests, oppressed women religious, and Papal scandals constitute enough to the misunderstanding of true Catholic theology and morality. It's like looking at the Orthodox Church through some of the monstrous Russian Monarchs while neglecting the St. Seraphim of Sarov's.

And honestly, I'm afraid (as this is the case with every denomination) that there are a few who will object to any change of any kind; for their faith was passed down to them by their families, and they are loathe to give it up, theological issues aside. For example, even though the Arians were excommunicated at 1 Nicea, several returned to the Church, but several continued to exist (and continue to exist, either in neo-Arian groups or old segments near the Holy Land) for hundreds of years, in small numbers. So too, even in the physical Church, there are many who are not one with the Church because they hold unorthodox opinions. I imagine that in any reunification, the spirit of schism may still remain.

May I also say, Xprycoctomos, that many of Luther's writings are not a light read. I read Bondage of the Will, and was taken aback at his sheer anger and the way he just bashed all of his objections aside. Sometimes he was quite infantile about it.

I also think that Martin Luther's psychological condition, especially his scrupulosity in his earlier years, contributed greatly to his actions and his theology. I think he focused to much on Judas, and left Peter. Perhaps his love for the faith turned into zeal without knowledge. As Michelina and others have commented, his "pre-Sola Fide" life was filled with a neurotic fear of hell and damnation. As you commented, Xprycoctomos, after that his theology took another end. But I also think that he exaggerated far too much, saying, "sin boldly."

Another unfortunate result of the Reformation is the hijacking of Augustinan theology unto the Lutheran and Calvinist doctrines. As a former Calvinist, I remember many times invoking Augustine as our doctrinal patron. As I acquired a deeper knowledge of his theology, I realised his great difference with Luther and Calvin as to the nature of Free will. Even if Luther had good intentions, he should have known as a Catholic, that schism itself is an evil.

An even funnier thing about Calvin in particular, is if you read his Institutes, how he even conceded the possibility that one can be predestined to grace but not to glory...because modern Calvinists say Calvin taught that an elect one was predestined, ipso facto, to glory, then this breeds a curious question. Calvin thought otherwise (at least in that book, at that time) than his modern followers - a very interesting resemblance on Augustine's view on perseverance.

I think that in cases like Luther and Calvin, their successors took them even further, as is to be expected. Even now, those like Zane Hodges are preaching among the Protestants a "no-Lordship Gospel", applying Sola Fide in an extreme form of antinomianism.

As you said, Xprycoctomos, Luther, Calvin, Zwingli et al. began to realise in their own lifetimes, that Luther's "plowboy" was beginning to turn himself into his own Pope. The arguments on transsubstantiation, Infant Baptism, etc. arose.

It also didn't help that European potentates capitalized on this spiritual revolution, along with came the largest seizure of private land in European History - that of the seizure of Church land, Monasteries, Papal lands, etc.
 
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