Question About LCMS

TCat · Mar 23, 2007

I think that the fact that my church has 1000-1500 people worship each weekend makes it impossible for our many pastors and deacons to decide who comes to the altar to recieve the sacrament and who is refused.

Again each man must examine himself and decide for himself if he is in agreement with our confessional statement.

Maybe in small churches this is not a problem, or maybe larger churches have figured out how to keep people from thinking that they wish to recieve forgiveness and mercy.

Anyone care to share how their larger churches do that?

seajoy · Mar 23, 2007

Even in the confessional forum we have to discuss this? And I was having such a good day.

porterross · Mar 23, 2007

TCat said:
Anyone care to share how their larger churches do that?

Responsible and mindful ushers and elders. It's not that difficult to question and converse with visitors as they are handed a bulletin before entering the sanctuary.

nowsthetime · Mar 23, 2007

wow. i didnt even realize this thread was still being commented in. hmm.

im now baffled. if you understand what communion is, and accept the proper creed, why should you be refused? i don't like how churches wrap themselves up in their own 'maintaining holiness' agenda and then they just trip and fall over because they forget the true meaning of the sacrament. then all they've done was in vein.

as one of the previous posts said, Corinthians states one must examine one's self. not have a pastor examine you. this is a relationship with you and God. thats what is intended... we do this for the remembrance of Jesus... its not some special club. IMHO pastors are meant to lead the flock, not to think for the flock.

i respect having "closed communion" if the closed communion is to those who don't believe in the creed. but as far as being baptized members of a specified single denomination before the commune, i think is silly.
i realize that that isn't the view of all of LCMS churches, and I'm excited to go back to my hometown and visit one eventually to see what its like.

be blessed.

DaRev · Mar 23, 2007

TCat said:
I think that the fact that my church has 1000-1500 people worship each weekend makes it impossible for our many pastors and deacons to decide who comes to the altar to recieve the sacrament and who is refused.

Again each man must examine himself and decide for himself if he is in agreement with our confessional statement.

Maybe in small churches this is not a problem, or maybe larger churches have figured out how to keep people from thinking that they wish to recieve forgiveness and mercy.

Anyone care to share how their larger churches do that?

Good pastoral care, for starters. A good explanation of the teaching of the Sacrament given to those in church also works.

Proper cathechesis. How does one know how to examine themselves? How does one know what to examine? How does one know what the apostle's teachings are that we are to be in fellowship with according to 1 Corinthians 10?

Communion is twofold. It is both an individual realtionship with God, which only God knows. And it is a relationship with the whole body of Christ, which can be easily figured out by what a person confesses. Both of these are the respnsibility of the pastor, who has been given the authority and responsibility by God in his call.

With something as important and crucial as proper reception of the Lord's Supper, I would MUCH rather deny someone the possibility of committing a sin at the altar than to allow them to do spiritual harm to themselves. It is my responsibility as a pastor to make certain that that is the case. Afterall, I have to stand before the Lord on the last day and make an account.

I would be interested in knowing how that "confessional creed" you mentioned is worded. Care to share that with us?

DaRev · Mar 23, 2007

nowsthetime said:
wow. i didnt even realize this thread was still being commented in. hmm.

im now baffled. if you understand what communion is, and accept the proper creed, why should you be refused?

What "creed"?

nowsthetime · Mar 23, 2007

DaRev said:
What "creed"?

Nicene or Apostles. but this in general is for what I believe..

but any creed that represents the church's views. i wouldn't want to take communion at a church that believed one of the central ideas of my faith to be wrong

TCat · Mar 23, 2007

Let me see if I can remember it all

I understand and admit that I have sinned against God today I recognize my sin and humbly ask for His forgiveness. We confess and believe that the risen Christ is really present in this sacrament and under the form of the bread and wine is truly present in His body and blood.

We confess that Jesus Christ is our risen Savior, without whose grace we have no hope against sin, death and the devil...

I promise to dedicate my life to the Lord, cheerfully giveing my time and resources and joyfully sharing the Good News with others.

uhoh, darn it I can't remember it all, there is more but I have the radio on and my daughter chattering in the backround. This is a good portion of it, it is not the Creeds but our statement of faith I guess you'd say.

Rev, how do you propose to train your deacons and elders to know 1500 people in 6 or more services over the weekend to determine who is ok to take communion??? Maybe a few could recognize all the members although I doubt it, but even then how would one know about the sin of anothers heart?

My pastor has stated that he has refused communion and church membership to a some people but those were ones whose circumstances he knew firsthand.

My point again is that when we rely on the Holy Spirit he does convict and lead us to truth, so that we are able to examine ourselves. I know that I have certainly been made more aware of my sins the longer I walk with Him. Things I would not have thought sinfull before now I see and repent from. But that comes from God not from some preacher or elder whose heart may or may not be in a position to judge another.

DaRev · Mar 23, 2007

TCat said:
Rev, how do you propose to train your deacons and elders to know 1500 people in 6 or more services over the weekend to determine who is ok to take communion??? Maybe a few could recognize all the members although I doubt it, but even then how would one know about the sin of anothers heart?

The key word (and I probably forgot to mention it earlier) is "knowingly". You are right that I cannot know what is in the hearts of my members. Even those who I have instructed and taught the Scriptural truths may not believe it but tell me they do anyway. In those cases, it is between the individual and God. God will judge as He wills.

But the things that I DO know about, such as their public confession, I must go by. If someone is not Baptized, I need to know why. And if they are not Baptized, they certainly should not receive communion. If someone is a member of a church that denies the Real Presence in the Sacrament, I must also deny them the Sacrament because discernment of the Lord's body in the Sacrament is necessary for worthy reception according to 1 Corinthians 11.

To have an announcement in a church bulletin or whatever that simply states that anyone can come to the table, even if they are not baptized, with no statement of the confession of faith, is purely irresponsible on the part of the pastor. No, he cannot know what is in a person's heart. But he can, indeed he must, make known the teaching concerning the Sacrament so that those who are not members will know what is at stake.

My pastor has stated that he has refused communion and church membership to a some people but those were ones whose circumstances he knew firsthand.

Very good.

My point again is that when we rely on the Holy Spirit he does convict and lead us to truth, so that we are able to examine ourselves. I know that I have certainly been made more aware of my sins the longer I walk with Him. Things I would not have thought sinfull before now I see and repent from. But that comes from God not from some preacher or elder whose heart may or may not be in a position to judge another.

But, again, the pastor is the one who is called by God to make sure you know what sin is, that you know what truth is, because as sinful human beings we need to be told that continually. The Holy Spirit calls the pastors and, through them, leads us in His way. Unless the shepherd constantly watches and guides the sheep, they will stray and walk off of a cliff. That's why God calls and ordains pastors. I think God knows what He's doing in that regard.

TheCosmicGospel · Mar 23, 2007

TCat said:
How do you propose to train your deacons and elders to know 1500 people in 6 or more services over the weekend to determine who is ok to take communion??? Maybe a few could recognize all the members although I doubt it, but even then how would one know about the sin of anothers heart?

Consider this:
\
"Communion at St. John's is for members of the LCMS. If you are a visitor, we ask that you would attend one of our visitor classes that meets the third Sunday of each month at 10:00am with coffee and donuts. We would like to get to know you and see how we can serve you at St. John's."

I agree. There is no way to deal with 1500 members plus visitors before services. But to raise the issue of 1500 members as a reason for an open policy that would even be met by the ELCA, then I have to wonder about the pastoral care of the 1500 members as well.

This is not an issue of looking into someone's heart. We can't. It is about public confessions that we maintain. Again, if you think this is too narrow, I suggest you look at www.lutheransreform.org. In this mutli-cultural lanscape, it is more imperative than ever the pastor is shepherding his flock with discernment and watchfulness.

Cheers,
Cosmic

TheCosmicGospel · Mar 24, 2007

Here's a little twist.

LCMS is in proposed fellowship with TAALC. (Not sure if it is a fact yet.) Most churches in this association are going to have open communion. If you are baptized and believe, you are welcome. It's just not a real issue in TAALC because of their small size and clear break from the ELCA. Fences are only necessary if you have cows, so to speak.

So I would be holding to a closed communion in LCMS and open communion in TAALC. Some might see this as a contradiction. It is rather a historical application. You do not make rules until they are needed.

Otherwise why is LCMS seeking fellowship with a body that practices open communion when itself does not?

Have a Happy Sunday,
Cosmic

DaRev · Mar 24, 2007

TheCosmicGospel said:
Here's a little twist.

LCMS is in proposed fellowship with TAALC. (Not sure if it is a fact yet.) Most churches in this association are going to have open communion. If you are baptized and believe, you are welcome.

This is not true, at least as a teaching of the AALC.

Check this link:
http://www.taalc.org/Assets/Communion_Practice-TAALC.pdf

Pay attention to pages 4 & 5 of the document. The AALC in fact holds to the exact same teaching of the Sacrament and close communion as does the LCMS. In fact, I really like this document as a clear way of explaining the teaching of the Sacrament.

It may be that some congregations practice open communion. Some congregations in the LCMS do so (as this thread clearly attests). The doctrinal position of the church body, however, is very different in both cases.

The full altar/pulpit fellowship will most likely be decided at the LCMS Houston convention in July and the TAALC General Convention in St. Paul in June.

TheCosmicGospel · Mar 24, 2007

Thanks for the link. It was an interesting read.

In www.taalc.org/lutheran_distinctives.htm we find the following:

'The celebration of the Lord's Supper among congregations in The AALC could be described as "close Communion".'

This could be why Rev. Hays uses the expression "Responsible Communion". It is not open or closed and may not fit everyone's definition of even "close". It is "somewhat close".

Another question might be, what does LCMS gain from this new fellowship with The AALC? What does The AALC gain?

Happy Sunday,
Cosmic

synger · Mar 24, 2007

*goes through the recycling bin and finds the bulletin from last week*

This is what ours says:

As Lutheran Christians, we believe that in the Lord's Supper the bread and wine are not just "symbols," but that the true Body and Blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ are supernaturally present in, with and under the naturally eaten bread and wine. And we believe that in receiving Holy Communion we also receive forgiveness of sins and spiritual nourishment to live a Christian life. Jesus says, ".. this is My Body ...this is My Blood ...this do in remembrance of Me .. for the forgiveness of sins." And, since this Holy Communion demonstrates our common faith and beliefs, only Baptized Christians who share our convictions and sincerely repent of their sins are heartily invited to share this Sacrament with us. Please talk with the Pastor before the service. The wine is offered in both individual and common cups.

DaRev · Mar 24, 2007

Here is ours:

The Lords Supper is celebrated here at St. Johns in the confession and glad confidence that our Lord, as He says, gives not only bread and wine, but His very body and blood to eat and drink for the forgiveness of sin. In joyful obedience to the clear teaching of our Lord Jesus those are invited to His table who trust His words, repent of all sin, and set aside any refusal to forgive and love as He forgives and loves us. They show forth His death until He comes. Because Holy Communion is a confession of faith which is confessed at this altar, any who are not yet instructed, in doubt, or who hold a confession differing from that of the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod but wish to receive the Sacrament are asked to speak with the pastor beforehand.

C.F.W. Walther · Mar 24, 2007

TheCosmicGospel said:
Thanks for the link. It was an interesting read.

In www.taalc.org/lutheran_distinctives.htm we find the following:

'The celebration of the Lord's Supper among congregations in The AALC could be described as "close Communion".'

This could be why Rev. Hays uses the expression "Responsible Communion". It is not open or closed and may not fit everyone's definition of even "close". It is "somewhat close".

Another question might be, what does LCMS gain from this new fellowship with The AALC? What does The AALC gain?

Happy Sunday,
Cosmic

You might want to check with filosofer. He's TAALC. He might be able to clarify this.

LilLamb219 · Mar 24, 2007

Ok, here's what it says for visitors in our bulletin:

Visitors, please speak with Pastor before communing.

That pretty much says it all. My pastor will give a blessing to someone he doesn't know who comes to the table from what I've heard.

Question About LCMS

Daily surrender

Senior Veteran

I miss Ronald Reagan

Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Member

Daily surrender

Well-Known Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Well-Known Member

Regular Member

Confessional Liturgical Lutheran

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

The Lamb is gone

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency