Question About Evolution and Heaven

[ChristianRocker33]

My Dad believes that God is real, and that Jesus is savior, but he also believes that Evolution is real. He thinks that God created organisms that we Evolved into. I Don't believe this, but if he accepted Jesus as his personal Lord and Savior, even though he believes in Evolution, would he go to Heaven? Feel free to debate your decisions, I am going to read and determine what the most logical answer is to this question based on your beliefs.

Thank You Very Much.

 

[notto]

Many Christians accept evolution (notice the use of the word accept rather than believe). I think most Christians would agree that it is not an issue of salvation.

Your father believes God is the creator.
Your father believes in Jesus Christ as savior.

What else does it take to get into heaven according to Jesus?

 

[ThePhoenix]

You mean is evolution a salvation issue? Most creation "scientists" even agree that it's not.

 

[Bulldog]

I have yet to find a verse that would siggest that your science beliefs have any bearing on your salvation.

 

[billwald]

The problem is the term "believe in." It is meaningless as commonly used. Better to reserve "believe" (without the 'in') for metaphysical experiences and conclusions and use "knowledge" (know) for data analysis.

 

[Harpazo]

I agree that one's salvation is not contingent on one's acceptance or rejection of a scientific theory or postulate -- only of Jesus Christ.

That said, I find theistic evolution problematic b/c of the kind of God it illuminates -- namely one who finds the largescale pain and death (even genocide) of His creations to be not only acceptable but necessary. Never mind what the Bible says about death (namely, that it is unnatural and an enemy), it seems counter-intuitive that a God who demonstrates such economy in creating the universe with a single utterance and such personal attention to detail (even the TE crowd agrees that the evolution was God-guided the whole way through) would then elect to use so impersonal and uneconomic a method as natural selection to populate His universe. One begins to wonder why God would abandon His speak-into-being method of creating when it was an established success. Some would argue that no one can know the will/mind of God; this is true, but it is also a strawman argument.

But anyway, this isn't what the thread's about. The point is, XianRocker33, that your father's salvation is in his relationship with Jesus Christ, not his views on this or that scientific theory.

 

[ThePhoenix]

That said, I find theistic evolution problematic b/c of the kind of God it illuminates -- namely one who finds the largescale pain and death (even genocide) of His creations to be not only acceptable but necessary. Never mind what the Bible says about death (namely, that it is unnatural and an enemy), it seems counter-intuitive that a God who demonstrates such economy in creating the universe with a single utterance and such personal attention to detail (even the TE crowd agrees that the evolution was God-guided the whole way through) would then elect to use so impersonal and uneconomic a method as natural selection to populate His universe. One begins to wonder why God would abandon His speak-into-being method of creating when it was an established success. Some would argue that no one can know the will/mind of God; this is true, but it is also a strawman argument.

As opposed to a God who kills everyone, including newborn babies, except for one family?

 

[LivingWorship]

I really think that there is a double-edged answer here... on the one hand, I think that yes, the issue is who do you trust... is Jesus the Lord and Saviour of your life? If yes then this is the prime issue... but that said... I feel (and this is more a personal view of the Word of God, but I think that the Bible itself speaks volumes without my input) that belief in evolution seriously undermines the notion of all-powerful God and at best denies the character of God... and this puts faith in question... it's hard to call God GOD and yet deny His holy Word... just a thought. God bless you all

 

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

I find it amusing that fundamentalists, who when defending the inerrancy of Scripture, will bend over backwards to claim that the genocides of the book of Joshua and the mass death of the flood do not, if taken literally, cast question marks over the goodness of God, because it's not for us to judge God's actions, will then turn round and suggest that evolution cannot be right because it - erm - casts question marks over the goodness of God...

However, it doesn't. Evolution does not require largescale genocide and pain. It merely requires a slight disparity in the reproductive success of some variants within a population as compared with others. That is all.

Meanwhile, in no way does evolution detract from the power of God. That God is able to make His creative wishes come to fruition through the contingency of such a process speaks far more about His abilities than a simple Fiat creation. It shows, for a start, that God can also bring His desires to come to pass through the contingencies of history and the free choices of human beings. Nor does it deny "His Holy Word" - whatever that means. If you equate "denying His Holy Word" with "not taking the Bible as inerrant literal history", then you will have problems. There is no reason, however, to make such an equivocation.

 

[LivingWorship]

Three words: GOD IS SOVEREIGN.

Yes God is good, yes God is love but you forget that God is also JUDGE, and we know God is upset and angry with the state of the world. No one knowing the Bible has ever said that God only loves, because as you rightly say, He also got Israel to do some crazy (by our standards) things... kill other peoples... whatever... but Israel also suffered greatly... Israel at the time were the only ones who could be forgiven of sin due to the Abrahamic covenant.. God changed that when He sent Jesus Christ to die and fully reveal that covenant of Abraham, now we ALL have access to God should we choose it.

He loves you and me but hates some of the things we do... and one day God - who has given us chance after chance to repent and turn from our ways that contradict Scripture and simple obedience to God - will pour out His wrath on the earth... the simple truth is we cannot fully appreciate or understand the mind of GOd... who we are to try and understand a God who loves us so much hat He gives Himself to be our sacrifice? Just love Him!!

See the thing is if we can question the Bible's historical content then we can question what its spiritual content tells us. I don't have problems because I have no reason to question it's authenticity. I know what I know, and nothing can change that. Well except for God revealing more of Himself! Praise God! Now I am a firm believer in natural selection. This is not IMHO an argument for evolution. This explains your disparity over time within a population without necessarily equating to evolution. There is no basis for saying natural selection cannot happen with created beings.

BTW if you actually READ my post you would see that I never said it questions the goodness of God... what it does question is the validity of the Bible. When I say "character" this simply means that it denies His characteristics such as being omniscient, being omnipotent.. and being a truthful God... evolution is fundamentally a chance event... this led to this led to this... and it all JUST happened. Theistic evolutionists try and link this to God and that He had control... if He did then why didn't He just make mankind? Furthermore how then did sin enter the picture? IT must have been when we were some other lifeform... where then does the Bible account for this? If Christians are to believe the Word of God then where does the evolution bit fit in? OR is the Bible WRONG? I assure you it is not... but you'll have to read it and seek the Lord's guidance to understand... I pray you do just that.

 

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

It's not all about you. It's Harpazo who raised the question of the goodness of God in the light of evolution. Your second paragraph nevertheless illustrates my point - who are we to understand the way God works, you ask - and yet you have said that God can't have worked this way because x, y or z. It doesn't matter what the reasons are that God can't have worked this way - you're still telling God how He can and can't work, and contradicting your statement thereby.

I challenge your point that if we can't trust the Bible's historical content we cannot trust its spiritual content. I don't see why at all. If the Bible makes use of middle-eastern trible myths and national origin stories to communicate truth, why does that cast any doubt on that truth? Do Jesus' parables lack authority because the events therein described did not occur?

Exactly what do you think needs to be added to natural selection and genetic variation in order for evolution to occur?

 

[LivingWorship]

But think about it Karl... you are calling yourself a liberal backslider... why is that? Do you question the Bible? It would seem so, forgive me for jumping to conclusions but your nickname suggests only this.

Naturally if you think the Bible comes from some myth then why would anyone think that its moral and more particularly its spiritual guidance is worth listening to? I really believe this is why people who read the Bible don't understand because they refuse to believe that the Bible could be historically accurate. If you can't believe in the historical context then how do you know that for example Jesus died on the cross? or the Lord sent a flood to punish the earth for her sins? or that God killed an animal to both cover Adam's nakedness and be the first sacrifice to appease the wrath of God?

So the best scenario that can occur then is that the person takes on board some Biblical principle but not enough to really be living the Christian life... that's not obeying the Word of God if you choose to obey only some things... it's like trying to put football rules onto the baseball field. It's a different ball game and the rules DONT MIX. Same for faith. Christianity is not to be mixed with worldly wisdom or other religion. The minute you do that, it is moving away from Christianity.

We are now escaping the point and I only wanted to address your questions, Karl. The bottom line is that while I believe in creation, and I feel it is important to get a true idea of GOd and so on... I feel the broader issue, and most vital is the issue of salvation... you can perhaps believe evolution and yet trust in Jesus (don't see how but smoe obviously do, and I know GOd would judge in fairness, he knows the heart) but you can't believe in creation, and be saved if you don't accept Christ. Food for thought...

In answer to the last question, A VIVID IMAGINATION.

 

[LivingWorship]

My apologies Karl, I now see what you referred to in Harpazo's post. Sorry brother.

 

[LivingWorship]

Interesting... you make a valid point... but I'm not restricting God when I say that He cannot lie, cannot cheat, cannot steal... He limited Himself... why? Well I don't really konw but I do know that God is GOOD, and there is no evil in Him. Judge he may do but only in fairness, and love.

SO when I say that God can't do this re evolution... it's not so much that He can't.. He can. But I do believe that evolution doesn't do justice to an Omnipotent God who can do all these things. I also believe that God isn't going to go outside the very laws of physics that He designed to create or whatever... He chose to bind Himself to those laws when He created the heavens and the earth... I honestly believe if God is omnipotent and omniscient that He can do things outside the boundaries of human understanding... thus making evolution possible. However I also believe that God in meeting us at our point of need also meetsus at our level of understanding... which requires us to adhere to the laws of science... somthing evolution struggles to do at the best of times. God is a god of order and that order is more likely through a creation than an evolution over 14 billion or so years...

anyhow... looks like we may agree to disagree. Bless you brother...

 

[packsaddle]

My Dad believes that God is real, and that Jesus is savior, but he also believes that Evolution is real. He thinks that God created organisms that we Evolved into. I Don't believe this, but if he accepted Jesus as his personal Lord and Savior, even though he believes in Evolution, would he go to Heaven? Feel free to debate your decisions, I am going to read and determine what the most logical answer is to this question based on your beliefs.

Thank You Very Much.

it's really not a complicated topic.

if you believe in a god that didn't create, then you are in jeopardy of forfeiting your salvation, because you are placing your faith in a false god.

false gods cannot save.

only the biblical God can save.

only the biblical God creates.

It is I who made the earth
and created mankind upon it.
My own hands stretched out the heavens;
I marshaled their starry hosts. - Isaiah 45:12​

it is a soteriological issue, and you should explain it to your father in a logical and concise manner.

good luck.

 

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

Packsaddle - please put your strawman away. The God that Christian theistic evolutionists believe in (the same that other Christians believe in) is a God who creates. No-one here is suggesting He didn't; we have to agree with the Nicene Creed to post on this forum, which states:

...factorem caeli et terrae, et omnium visibilium et invisibilium

 

[packsaddle]

Packsaddle - please put your strawman away. The God that Christian theistic evolutionists believe in (the same that other Christians believe in) is a God who creates. No-one here is suggesting He didn't; we have to agree with the Nicene Creed to post on this forum, which states:

...factorem caeli et terrae, et omnium visibilium et invisibilium

perhaps you should read the biblical creed, the one that says that God 'created mankind'.

what it doesn't say is that God 'created bugkind, that eventually became mankind, after some lucky genetic mutations'.

 

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

But I do believe God created mankind. That's the problem with your strawman.

That He did it through evolution does not negate that very important fact.

 

[packsaddle]

But I do believe God created mankind. That's the problem with your strawman.

That He did it through evolution does not negate that very important fact.

God said He created mankind via fiat miracle (i.e. woman from man's rib).

why don't you believe Him?

you are merely attempting to harmonize Scripture (absolute truths for thousands of years) with man's fallible theories (the idea that man came from monkeys emerged less than 150 years ago).

yet, we have lineage in the Bible from Adam (Chronicles) extending all the way to Jesus (Luke).

most theistic evolutionists deny a literal Adam.

so, at what point in the geneology does the myth start to be real factual data?

where is the line that divides the last mythological generation, and the first literal generation?

 

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

God said He created mankind via fiat miracle (i.e. woman from man's rib).

why don't you believe Him?

Because believing God does not mean believing what I know isn't true. And because Genesis 1 gives a contradictory account of the creation of woman, where they are created together and at the same time. Why don't you believe that version?

you are merely attempting to harmonize Scripture (absolute truths for thousands of years) with man's fallible theories (the idea that man came from monkeys emerged less than 150 years ago).

Another strawman. Find me a single text saying that man evolved from monkeys.

Besides, I am not attempting to harmonise anything. Genesis and evolution are non-overlapping magisteria, with concerns in different areas. The former is concerned with spiritual truth, the latter with scientific truth. There is no need to harmonise them.

yet, we have lineage in the Bible from Adam (Chronicles) extending all the way to Jesus (Luke).

And I can give you a lineage from the mythical King Eremhon of Ireland to Her Maj. Does it prove anything?

most theistic evolutionists deny a literal Adam.

so, at what point in the geneology does the myth start to be real factual data?

Why does it matter? Where does the line from Eremhon to EIIR become factual? Does this have any implications for the existence of the British Crown?

where is the line that divides the last mythological generation, and the first literal generation?

No idea. Perhaps there isn't one. Perhaps there are historical and non-historical people right up and down it. Perhaps we can even find a version of Luke's and Matthew's gospels that can agree who Joseph's father was.