Question about donkey meat in Islam

[TG123]

Salaam Alaikum. I have a question for my Muslim fellow posters on this board.

When I read 2:173 in the Quran, it states:

He has only forbidden to you dead animals, blood, the flesh of swine, and that which has been dedicated to other than Allah . But whoever is forced [by necessity], neither desiring [it] nor transgressing [its limit], there is no sin upon him. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

However, Muhammad if I am not mistaken prohibited the eating of donkeys.

(5) Narrated Anas: The Prophet reached Khaibar in the morning, while the people were coming out carrying their spades over their shoulders. When they saw him they said, "This is Muhammad and his army! Muhammad and his army!" So, they took refuge in the fort. The Prophet raised both his hands and said, "Allahu Akbar, Khaibar is ruined, for when we approach a nation (i.e. enemy to fight) then miserable is the morning of the warned ones." Then we found some donkeys which we (killed and) cooked: The announcer of the Prophet announced: "Allah and His Apostle forbid you to eat donkey's meat." So, all the pots including their contents were turned upside down. (Book #52, Hadith #234)

Search the word donkey eat in the Hadith (Hadis) Books (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Sahih Muslim, Sunan Abu-Dawud, and Malik's Muwatta)

Donkeys do not to my knowledge fall into either "dead animals" or "blood" or "swine" or "dedicated to other than Allah" categories. Why did Muhammad make prohibited what God did not?

Shukran, wa Allahma3k!

 

[LionL]

I'm not a Muslim, so no expert, but the Hadith were oral traditions written long after Mohammed's death - even longer than the time between Jesus' death and the writing of the Gospels. As such, the Quran would take precedence.

 

[smaneck]

I'm not a Muslim, so no expert, but the Hadith were oral traditions written long after Mohammed's death - even longer than the time between Jesus' death and the writing of the Gospels. As such, the Quran would take precedence.

Yes, in theory that is the case. Practice is always a bit more complicated.
My understanding is that wild donkey are halal whereas domesticated donkeys are makruh (disapproved) according to some authorities, but haram or prohibited by others. If this prohibition is based on the hadith which TG123 cites I have to wonder if it hasn't been misunderstood. Presumably the donkeys they were eating belonged to the Jews of Khaybar. According to the standard rules of war in Islam, Muslims should not even harm a tree. They may slaughter herding animals if necessary for food, but a donkey would not ordinarily be considered a herding animal, it was a beast of burden.
Therefore I have to wonder if the prohibition was not based on the fact they were killed contrary to the "rules of engagement" not because of the meat itself being haram.

 

[Niblo]

Donkeys do not to my knowledge fall into either "dead animals" or "blood" or "swine" or "dedicated to other than Allah" categories. Why did Muhammad make prohibited what God did not?
[/SIZE]
Shukran, wa Allahma3k!

As-Salāmu ʿAlaykum.

Islamic scholars insist that one must not pass judgement on any matter concerning the Noble Qur’an or aHadith unless one is fully qualified to do so; and only then when all available evidence has been considered. It is not permissible to quote a verse - or part of a verse - without taking into account all that the Book or the aHadith have to say about the matter under consideration.

As far as possible all texts must be reconciled (and to the maximum possible); and there have to be very good reasons for selecting one text over another.

Here’s a quote we should mull over before asking any Muslim to make a judgement on why the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) said this or that:

‘Regarding the qualities of a mufti and the disciplines that he must master:

‘It is imperative that the mufti be a scholar of language, for the Shari’a is Arabic. It is imperative that he be a scholar of syntax and parsing. It is imperative that he be a scholar of the Qur’an, for the Qur’an is the basis of all rulings. Knowledge of textual abrogation is indispensable; and the science of the fundamentals of jurisprudence (usul) is the cornerstone of the whole subject. He should also know the various degrees of proofs and arguments … as well as their histories. (He should also know) the science of Hadith so that he can distinguish the authentic from the weak; and the acceptable from the apocryphal…………….

(Imam al-Haramayn: ‘Al-Burhan fi Usul Al-Fiqh&#8217.

Regarding horses, mules and donkeys:

‘They carry your loads to lands you yourselves could not reach without great hardship - truly your Lord is kind and merciful- horses, mules, and donkeys are for you to ride and use for show, and other things you know nothing about.’

(Al-Nahl: Verses 7-8).

And this is in support of the Hadith you have quoted:

‘Sayyiduna Khalid ibn al-Walid (Allah be pleased with him) narrates that the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) forbade the meat of horses, mules and donkeys.’

(Musnad Ahmad - 4:89; Sunan Abu Dawud - Number 3790; Sunan Nasa’i and Sunan Ibn Majah).

Comment:

The scholars are in agreement that horses, mules and donkeys are for riding; for domestic work; and for adornment only; that they are not to be classed as food of any sort (neither good nor bad); and that had their consumption been permissible, then Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) would surely have mentioned it.

You have a good day now. Try not to eat too much, and keep away from bulldozers.

 

[TG123]

Yes, in theory that is the case. Practice is always a bit more complicated.
My understanding is that wild donkey are halal whereas domesticated donkeys are makruh (disapproved) according to some authorities, but haram or prohibited by others. If this prohibition is based on the hadith which TG123 cites I have to wonder if it hasn't been misunderstood. Presumably the donkeys they were eating belonged to the Jews of Khaybar. According to the standard rules of war in Islam, Muslims should not even harm a tree. They may slaughter herding animals if necessary for food, but a donkey would not ordinarily be considered a herding animal, it was a beast of burden.
Therefore I have to wonder if the prohibition was not based on the fact they were killed contrary to the "rules of engagement" not because of the meat itself being haram.

That is an interesting perspective, smaneck.

 

[TG123]

As-Salāmu ʿAlaykum.

Wa alaikum salaam.

Islamic scholars insist that one must not pass judgement on any matter concerning the Noble Qur’an or aHadith unless one is fully qualified to do so; and only then when all available evidence has been considered. It is not permissible to quote a verse - or part of a verse - without taking into account all that the Book or the aHadith have to say about the matter under consideration.

As far as possible all texts must be reconciled (and to the maximum possible); and there have to be very good reasons for selecting one text over another.

Here’s a quote we should mull over before asking any Muslim to make a judgement on why the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) said this or that:

‘Regarding the qualities of a mufti and the disciplines that he must master:

‘It is imperative that the mufti be a scholar of language, for the Shari’a is Arabic. It is imperative that he be a scholar of syntax and parsing. It is imperative that he be a scholar of the Qur’an, for the Qur’an is the basis of all rulings. Knowledge of textual abrogation is indispensable; and the science of the fundamentals of jurisprudence (usul) is the cornerstone of the whole subject. He should also know the various degrees of proofs and arguments … as well as their histories. (He should also know) the science of Hadith so that he can distinguish the authentic from the weak; and the acceptable from the apocryphal…………….

(Imam al-Haramayn: ‘Al-Burhan fi Usul Al-Fiqh’).

My friend, you are free to answer or ignore any question I ask or comment I make. No pressure.

Regarding horses, mules and donkeys:

‘They carry your loads to lands you yourselves could not reach without great hardship - truly your Lord is kind and merciful- horses, mules, and donkeys are for you to ride and use for show, and other things you know nothing about.’

(Al-Nahl: Verses 7-8).

And this is in support of the Hadith you have quoted:

‘Sayyiduna Khalid ibn al-Walid (Allah be pleased with him) narrates that the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) forbade the meat of horses, mules and donkeys.’

(Musnad Ahmad - 4:89; Sunan Abu Dawud - Number 3790; Sunan Nasa’i and Sunan Ibn Majah).

Comment:

The scholars are in agreement that horses, mules and donkeys are for riding; for domestic work; and for adornment only; that they are not to be classed as food of any sort (neither good nor bad); and that had their consumption been permissible, then Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) would surely have mentioned it.

Are you sure that horses, mules and donkeys are only for riding and adornment, and are not to be classified as food?


(23) Narrated Jabir bin Abdullah: On the day of Khaibar, Allah's Apostle forbade the eating of donkey meat and allowed the eating of horse meat. (Book #59, Hadith #530)

Search the word horse eat in the Hadith (Hadis) Books (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Sahih Muslim, Sunan Abu-Dawud, and Malik's Muwatta)

You have a good day now. Try not to eat too much, and keep away from bulldozers.

LOL thanks for the advice, doctor.

Have a good day also, nice talking to you.

 

[TG123]

I'm not a Muslim, so no expert, but the Hadith were oral traditions written long after Mohammed's death - even longer than the time between Jesus' death and the writing of the Gospels. As such, the Quran would take precedence.

True, except that the Quran tells Muslims to obey God and His messenger. Yet here is an example of Muhammad and the Quran's author giving conflicting advice on what is prohibited and what is not.

 

[smaneck]

True, except that the Quran tells Muslims to obey God and His messenger. Yet here is an example of Muhammad and the Quran's author giving conflicting advice on what is prohibited and what is not.

His point is that because ahadith were not written down until centuries later we can't be sure that Muhammad even said this.

 

[LionL]

His point is that because ahadith were not written down until centuries later we can't be sure that Muhammad even said this.

Exactly what I meant. Thank you smaneck.

 

[Niblo]

Wa alaikum salaam.


Are you sure that horses, mules and donkeys are only for riding and adornment, and are not to be classified as food?


I was wrong on this. Some scholars argue as I have said; but the majority opinion appears to be that eating horses, mules and donkeys is halal, but detested. Sorry for misleading you.

Dr. Smaneck is correct when she says that Islamic rules of engagement prohibit the killing of domestic animals. It seems probable, that on this occasion, it was the breaking of the prohibition that prompted the rebuke.

Have a good day.

 

[TG123]

Exactly what I meant. Thank you smaneck.

Thanks, LionL and Smaneck. If the hadiths are discounted, then how would Muslims know how to pray? Are there not details given in the hadiths?

 

[TG123]

Wa alaikum salaam.


Are you sure that horses, mules and donkeys are only for riding and adornment, and are not to be classified as food?


I was wrong on this. Some scholars argue as I have said; but the majority opinion appears to be that eating horses, mules and donkeys is halal, but detested. Sorry for misleading you.

Dr. Smaneck is correct when she says that Islamic rules of engagement prohibit the killing of domestic animals. It seems probable, that on this occasion, it was the breaking of the prohibition that prompted the rebuke.

Have a good day.

Thanks so much for the response and no problem, we all make mistakes. I have some more questions, will get back to you later. Take care.

 

[LoveBeingAMuslimah]

http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/articles/113427/index.php?page=showfatwa&Option=FatwaId&Id=88197

Not interested in a long, drawn out debate.

 

[smaneck]

Some scholars argue as I have said; but the majority opinion appears to be that eating horses, mules and donkeys is halal, but detested.

If it is detested it would be makruh not halal.

Dr. Smaneck is correct when she says that Islamic rules of engagement prohibit the killing of domestic animals.

Not domesticated animals as a whole. It is permissible to kill herding animals if necessary to eat. But a donkey is not domesticated for herding purposes.

 

[Niblo]

If it is detested it would be makruh not halal.

Whoops! I do know this...no excuses for sloppy writing.

Not domesticated animals as a whole. It is permissible to kill herding animals if necessary to eat. But a donkey is not domesticated for herding purposes.

Thank you. I'm getting too old for this!

 

[smaneck]

Thanks, LionL and Smaneck. If the hadiths are discounted, then how would Muslims know how to pray? Are there not details given in the hadiths?

The issue in this case is whether the ahadith take precedence over the
Qur'an. Whether ahadith can really be ascribed to Muhammad they certainly reflect the consensus of the community at the time they were compiled. As I mentioned, I'd like to see a new science of hadith emerge, one using modern methods of higher criticism, but then I'm a historian not a mufti or a mujtahid. .

 

[TG123]

http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/articles/113427/index.php?page=showfatwa&Option=FatwaId&Id=88197

Not interested in a long, drawn out debate.

Salaam Alaikum and thanks for the fatwa. One of the things it states is that 5:103 was revealed in Mecca. However, the same website states elsewhere that surah 5 was the last surah revealed.


2) Surat Al-Ma'idah (the table) was the last Surah to be revealed. Jubair Ibn Nufair said: "I performed Hajj, and then I came into 'Ayisha (Radiya Allahu Anha) who asked me: O Jubair ! Do you read Al-Ma'idah? I said: Yes. She said: It was the last revealed Surah. So, follow what you find in it concerning Halal and avoid what you find in it concerning Haram" . [ Ahmad ].


The last revealed chapter and verse of the Quran - Islam web - English

Aisha actually said that what the surah al-Maidah says halal is halal, and what it says is forbidden is forbidden, and to go by it.

5:1-3

O you who have believed, fulfill [all] contracts. Lawful for you are the animals of grazing livestock except for that which is recited to you [in this Qur'an] - hunting not being permitted while you are in the state of ihram. Indeed, Allah ordains what He intends.
O you who have believed, do not violate the rites of Allah or [the sanctity of] the sacred month or [neglect the marking of] the sacrificial animals and garlanding [them] or [violate the safety of] those coming to the Sacred House seeking bounty from their Lord and [His] approval. But when you come out of ihram, then [you may] hunt. And do not let the hatred of a people for having obstructed you from al-Masjid al-Haram lead you to transgress. And cooperate in righteousness and piety, but do not cooperate in sin and aggression. And fear Allah ; indeed, Allah is severe in penalty.
Prohibited to you are dead animals, blood, the flesh of swine, and that which has been dedicated to other than Allah , and [those animals] killed by strangling or by a violent blow or by a head-long fall or by the goring of horns, and those from which a wild animal has eaten, except what you [are able to] slaughter [before its death], and those which are sacrificed on stone altars, and [prohibited is] that you seek decision through divining arrows. That is grave disobedience. This day those who disbelieve have despaired of [defeating] your religion; so fear them not, but fear Me. This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion. But whoever is forced by severe hunger with no inclination to sin - then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

Verse one states that livestock are permitted except for those that are prohibited, and the third verse explains what the prohibited ones are. Where is there mention of donkeys?

 

[LoveBeingAMuslimah]

The mention of domesticated donkeys is in an authentic hadeeth. Not all of the prohibitions or allowances are mentioned in the Qur'aan. Some are in the ahadeeth and they have the same divine origin as the Qur'aan: Allaah. They both need to be taken together to understand Islaam.

Aisha (may Allaah be pleased with her) is not saying that it is suddenly allowed to eat domesticated donkeys, fanged animals, birds of prey, and other animals that we know from other sources in Islaam are forbidden to eat. She is also not saying that all other rules in Islaam are abrogated and the only ones that remain are the ones from Surah al-Ma'idah. None of the scholars have understood it to mean that either.

 

[TG123]

The mention of domesticated donkeys is in an authentic hadeeth. Not all of the prohibitions or allowances are mentioned in the Qur'aan. Some are in the ahadeeth and they have the same divine origin as the Qur'aan: Allaah. They both need to be taken together to understand Islaam.

Aisha (may Allaah be pleased with her) is not saying that it is suddenly allowed to eat domesticated donkeys, fanged animals, birds of prey, and other animals that we know from other sources in Islaam are forbidden to eat. She is also not saying that all other rules in Islaam are abrogated and the only ones that remain are the ones from Surah al-Ma'idah. None of the scholars have understood it to mean that either.

Thanks for sharing this and I agree, she didn't say that Surah al-Ma'idah abrogates the teachings of Muhammad. However, Muhammad's teaching on the impermissibility of eating donkey does abrogate a verse in the Quran that states that the only things that are forbidden are swine, blood, carrion and animals sacrificed to false gods.

6:145
Say, "I do not find within that which was revealed to me [anything] forbidden to one who would eat it unless it be a dead animal or blood spilled out or the flesh of swine - for indeed, it is impure - or it be [that slaughtered in] disobedience, dedicated to other than Allah . But whoever is forced [by necessity], neither desiring [it] nor transgressing [its limit], then indeed, your Lord is Forgiving and Merciful."

While I am unaware of any scholar who believed it was ok to eat donkeys, I do know that Ibn Abbas refused to give a verdict forbidding the eating of donkey meat, using 6:145 as his reason.

Narrated 'Amr:
I said to Jabir bin Zaid, "The people claim that Allah's Apostle forbade the eating of donkey's meat. He said, "Al-Hakam bin 'Amr Al-Ghifari used to say so when he was with us, but Ibn 'Abbas, the great religious learned man, refused to give a final verdict and recited: -- 'Say: I find not in that which has been inspired to me anything forbidden to be eaten by one who wishes to eat it, unless it be carrion, blood poured forth or the flesh of swine... '(6:145)

http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/articles/113427/index.php?page=showfatwa&Option=FatwaId&Id=88197


As the article says later on, other scholars disagreed with him. However, we can see that the prohibition of eating donkey meat was not seen by every Muslim as applicable. Ibn Abbas it seems believed that what the Quran said on the issue of permissible and impermissible foods was of greater importance than what Muhammad said, and so he refused to give a verdict on whether eating donkey is haraam... even though Muhammad said that it was.


BTW I know we discussed this topic earlier but for some reason am unable to find the thread, but what do you think the Quran's author meant when he stated that he produced from grazing livestock 8 mates for people?

39:6

He created you from one soul. Then He made from it its mate, and He produced for you from the grazing livestock eight mates. He creates you in the wombs of your mothers, creation after creation, within three darknesses. That is Allah , your Lord; to Him belongs dominion. There is no deity except Him, so how are you averted?

LOL I am aware this may become another debate. If you don't wish to get involved in another long discussion, I understand. If you change your mind and want to debate I'm all game and would enjoy, but it's up to you.

Either way, I hope you are doing well. Take care.

 

[TG123]

Salaam Alaikum, and hello again.

I need to take back two things I said, ie agreeing that Aisha did not believe that the only things that are banned are contained in surah 5, and that I am unaware of any scholar agreeing it is ok to eat donkeys.

About an hour ago, I read what Maulana Maududi, a Muslim scholar, had to say about what foods are allowed and what foods are banned. As he points out in his commentary, Aisha did in fact believe that the only foods that are banned to eat are foods that mentioned as being banned in the Quran. This also was true for Ibn Abbas. Maududi also came to the conclusion that the only foods that are unlawful are those deemed to be unlawful by the Quran... the others are "detestable".

There is also disagreement among Muslim scholars over whether it is OK to eat carnivorous birds, cats, or snakes... with people on both sides of the debate.

here appears to be a little difference in the wording of this verse and that of v. 173, Al-Baqarah. In the latter verse it is simply `blood' that is forbidden, but in this verse it is the `blood' that has been shed, when an animal is wounded or slaughtered. The addition of the word masfuh (that has been shed) merely explains the nature of the `blood' and does not make any difference in the "Commandment" itself. Likewise in v. 3 of Al-Ma'idah, some other things besides these four have also been mentioned-the animals that have been strangled or beaten to death, or killed by a fall, or mangled by a beast of prey. This, too, does not make any difference in the "Commandment" in the two verses, because this is an explanation which shows that the animals which are killed in that way should also be considered as "carrion." Now let us consider the various opinions of the Jurists. Hadrat `Abdullah bin `Abbas and Hadrat `A'ishah were of the opinion that, out of the animal food, only these four were unlawful and all others were lawful. But there are several Traditions to the effect that the Holy Prophet prohibited other animals besides these four or held them in detestation, e.g., domestic donkeys and fanged beasts of prey and birds with claws. Therefore most jurists do not consider the prohibition to be confined to these four things only, but extend it to others; then there is also a difference of opinion among the jurists about the prohibition or otherwise of certain animals. For instance, Imam Abu Hanifah, Imam Malik and Imam Shafi`i declare the domestic donkey to be unlawful, but there are others who assert that the domestic donkey, is not unlawful and say that it was prohibited by the Holy Prophet on one occasion only for some special reason. The Hanafi s consider the carnivorous beasts and birds of prey and the animals that live on dead flesh to be absolutely unlawful, but according to Imam Malik and Auza`i, the birds of prey are lawful and Laith considers the cat to be lawful. According to Imam Shafi i. only those carnivorous beasts are unlawful that (like the lion, wolf, tiger) attack man. According to ' Ikrimah, the crow and the badger are both lawful. Then according to the Hanafi s, all crawling creatures are unlawful, whereas Ibn AbiLaila, Imam Malik and Auza' i consider the snake to be lawful.
A careful and critical study of the above makes it quite clear that, in reality, only these four things mentioned in the Qur'an are unlawful and that there are certain other animal foods that are detestable in various degrees. Therefore those things, which according to authentic Traditions were held in detestation by the Holy Prophet, are almost unlawful, but those things about which there is a difference of opinion among the jurists, their detestation is doubtful. As far as personal detestation of certain things by some people is concerned, the Islamic Law does not compel anyone to eat what one dislikes. The same applies to the detestation of certain things by some groups or nations. Conversely, the Law does not allow any person or community or nation to force others to consider as unlawful anything that they detest, or to .prohibit its use to those who consider them unlawful.
6. Surah Al Anaam (The Cattle) - Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi - Tafhim al-Qur'an - The Meaning of the Qur'an


As we can see, this issue is not cut-and-dry. Islam is very clear that alcohol and pigs is haraam, but when it comes to some other kinds of food, it becomes less clear.