Question about 5 Solas

[daveleau]

Hi everybody!

This is a very simplistic (I assume) explanation of the 5 Solas, but is it correct?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_solas

I have not grown up in a church that mentioned these 5 Solas, but the beliefs we have been taught (and rightly so according to Scripture, methinks) are the same without the fancy Latin packaging.

Thanks!
Dave

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

Looks good to me.

In Christ,
Kenith

 

[daveleau]

Thanks, CH.
BTW (and WAY OT), but I like your flag. Here's my family crest:

 

[HamletsChoice]

Hi everybody!

This is a very simplistic (I assume) explanation of the 5 Solas, but is it correct?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_solas

I have not grown up in a church that mentioned these 5 Solas, but the beliefs we have been taught (and rightly so according to Scripture, methinks) are the same without the fancy Latin packaging.

Thanks!
Dave

Dave,

The issue with believing the five sola's is some say they believe them all but when the rubber meets the road they really only believe them up to a point. I, like you, grew up in a church professing these beliefs but the real rub was when push came to shove belief in the five sola's fell short in many area's.

For instance, to quote your site:

"Sola gratia ("by grace alone")

Salvation comes by grace only, not through any merit on the part of the sinner. Thus salvation is an unearned gift. This doctrine is a response to the Catholic doctrine of merit."

Many say "well yeah grace alone butttttttt ....... you must also repent and believe!" As if repentance and belief were within our own power.

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

Many say "well yeah grace alone butttttttt ....... you must also repent and believe!" As if repentance and belief were within our own power.

I've seen this too. Many people don't seem to be able to grasp the fact that we can repent and believe BECAUSE of God's grace comes first-changes our heart-and enables us to repent and believe.

It is ALL of grace. Faith too is a gracious gift.

Coram Deo,
Kenith

 

[daveleau]

Not trying to debate here, but just agreeing that I do have one caveat to that, in that my main divergence from strict Reformed belief (Calvinism) is the view of Predestination and Free Will. I do believe we must have faith and accept the gift of Faith. Again, I am not saying this to debate, though, but instead to agree that I do have a caveat. Regarding the repentance, that comes from conviction of the Holy Spirit, not completely from ourselves as this would be a works based faith, of sorts. I just don't consider the singular event of acceptance of God's gift to be a work. But, that flies in the face of Calvinism...

 

[Proeliator]

Not trying to debate here, but just agreeing that I do have one caveat to that, in that my main divergence from strict Reformed belief (Calvinism) is the view of Predestination and Free Will. I do believe we must have faith and accept the gift of Faith. Again, I am not saying this to debate, though, but instead to agree that I do have a caveat. Regarding the repentance, that comes from conviction of the Holy Spirit, not completely from ourselves as this would be a works based faith, of sorts. I just don't consider the singular event of acceptance of God's gift to be a work. But, that flies in the face of Calvinism...

The point they are making is that if you have a caveat on that, u deny Sola Gratia, thus negating them all, since, just as the 5 points, they all go hand in hand.

 

[daveleau]

The point they are making is that if you have a caveat on that, u deny Sola Gratia, thus negating them all, since, just as the 5 points, they all go hand in hand.

I've heard that before. I don't understand it, though. Could you explain it? I've also heard that about TULIP, but I am a firm, no caveat Perseverance of the Saints believer because of what Scripture says. But, I do not believe in Irresistible Grace because Scripture (IMO) does not support it because of the many instances of people turning away from Christ despite His attempts to call them to Him. I do not see how one affects the other. This claim of interconnection of the 5 Solas seems to make even less sense, as I am a absolute believer of Sola Scriptura (as described in the above- not hyper-sola Scriptura where one cannot read other Christian writings in study), Sola Christus, Soli Deo gloria and Sola fide. Sola Gratia is fully correct as written above, but because of our freedom described in Scripture, I believe we must accept the Gift. I do not see how a belief that we must accept Christ as Savior means that I do not believe in Sola fide, Sola Scriptura, Sola Christus, Soli Deo gloria.

Please know that I am not trying to debate but trying to understand. If this needs to be moved to a congregational debate, let me know. I'm not stating my beliefs above in an attempt to debate, though, but to let you know where I stand so you can guide me to understanding your beliefs better.

 

[HamletsChoice]

Not trying to debate here, but just agreeing that I do have one caveat to that, in that my main divergence from strict Reformed belief (Calvinism) is the view of Predestination and Free Will. I do believe we must have faith and accept the gift of Faith. Again, I am not saying this to debate, though, but instead to agree that I do have a caveat. Regarding the repentance, that comes from conviction of the Holy Spirit, not completely from ourselves as this would be a works based faith, of sorts. I just don't consider the singular event of acceptance of God's gift to be a work. But, that flies in the face of Calvinism...

I kinda thought that was the case, you really don't believe in grace alone after all and in fact your church's preaching of grace alone is really grace plus something we must do....

God's predestination of His elect is at the heart of all Scripture from His revealed predestined election of Israel in the OT to His revealed predestined election of Jesus Christ and the Apostles in the NT. In addition, God's irresistable grace was at the heart of Christ's sermons, the topic of which was deeply offensive to both the Pharisees and Sadducees as well as to many of his disciples both during His day as well as today. In fact as Christ preached irresistable grace "many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him." (John 6:66)

Predestination and election, as taught plainly and throughout all of Scripture, is pure unadulterated grace alone and everything and anything else you try to add to Scriptural grace just redefines grace into your image and, well, to just simply put it, is an imposter.

 

[mlqurgw]

I have stated this so many times that I feel like a broken record. But I don't mind. Especially if someone is seeking to understand rather than refute.

There is a fundamental difference in a gift and an offer. If God offers salvation then it must be actively accepted by those who recieve it. They make it thier posession by their active receit which classifies it as a work. If, as I believe the Scriptures always show, God gives salvation as a gift then it is recieved passively as a glass recieves water. It does nothing but recieve. God makes it their possession by His act of giving it. All the glory belongs to Him alone. In both cases it is recieved but only one makes it a work of God alone. The question then becomes is salvation an offer or a gift?

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

I have stated this so many times that I feel like a broken record. But I don't mind. Especially if someone is seeking to understand rather than refute.

There is a fundamental difference in a gift and an offer. If God offers salvation then it must be actively accepted by those who recieve it. They make it thier posession by their active receit which classifies it as a work. If, as I believe the Scriptures always show, God gives salvation as a gift then it is recieved passively as a glass recieves water. It does nothing but recieve. God makes it their possession by His act of giving it. All the glory belongs to Him alone. In both cases it is recieved but only one makes it a work of God alone. The question then becomes is salvation an offer or a gift?

mlqurgw,

I agree with your basic statement, but I would word word a couple of things differently.

Salvation is an act of free grace from God and we can do nothing to receive it. God changes our hearts of stone into hearts of Flesh, we are born again by the work of God's Spirit in us. But when this work is done in our hearts and we are knew creatures, then we do actively believe. We do actively repent and follow Christ.


We do this not to be "born again," but because we have been "born again by Gods sovereign work in us."

$.02.

Coram Deo,
Kenith

 

[daveleau]

Ok. I get the point with your ideas on this aspect of Sola Gratia. Thanks.

What about the 5 Solas being intertwined, though? That has not been answered yet. How does the belief that one must accept the gift of God and balancing the free will passages of Scripture against the sovereignty passages thus causing me to have an slightly different view of Sola Gratia mean that I do not believe in the other 4 Solas? It does not affect Sola Scriptura, because my ideas come directly from Scripture and are simply a different interpretation. This is not to say there is no absolute truth, and I am stopping there because I typed a bunch of stuff that I would take as being debate. Sola Fide, Soli Deo gloria are not affected in any way I see based on writings that describe it. I can surmise why your belief system may state this about Sola Christus, because of the logic you have stated regarding Sola Gratia.

 

[HamletsChoice]

Ok. I get the point with your ideas on this aspect of Sola Gratia. Thanks.

What about the 5 Solas being intertwined, though? That has not been answered yet.

I didn't make that stmt someone else did.

But pls allow me to respond to the intertwining of Calvinistic doctrines. It is clear that TULIP is intertwined. For instance your church probably also professes to teach the "total depravity" of man. But once again when the rubber meets the road they will conclude "well yeah butttttt......man is not really totally dead in his sins. He is just deathly sick and can respond." This of course is taught nowhere in Scripture.

Calvinism is consisitent with total depravity, man is "dead" and can not do any good before he is born again. He is totally depraved and therefore no good is in him, therefore he can not muster up faith (which of course is very good). Scripture plainly teaches faith is a gift of God and is one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Grace alone saves man and raises him from the dead. If you take any part of TULIP away you lose them all.

Anyway, I hope that helps.

 

[mlqurgw]

mlqurgw,

I agree with your basic statement, but I would word word a couple of things differently.

Salvation is an act of free grace from God and we can do nothing to receive it. God changes our hearts of stone into hearts of Flesh, we are born again by the work of God's Spirit in us. But when this work is done in our hearts and we are knew creatures, then we do actively believe. We do actively repent and follow Christ.


We do this not to be "born again," but because we have been "born again by Gods sovereign work in us."

$.02.

Coram Deo,
Kenith

I would agree and think we recieve in both ways, actively and passively but i do not put it that way too often because it tends to confuse.

 

[GrinningDwarf]

Ok. I get the point with your ideas on this aspect of Sola Gratia. Thanks.

What about the 5 Solas being intertwined, though? That has not been answered yet. How does the belief that one must accept the gift of God and balancing the free will passages of Scripture against the sovereignty passages thus causing me to have an slightly different view of Sola Gratia mean that I do not believe in the other 4 Solas? It does not affect Sola Scriptura, because my ideas come directly from Scripture and are simply a different interpretation. This is not to say there is no absolute truth, and I am stopping there because I typed a bunch of stuff that I would take as being debate. Sola Fide, Soli Deo gloria are not affected in any way I see based on writings that describe it. I can surmise why your belief system may state this about Sola Christus, because of the logic you have stated regarding Sola Gratia.

Dave, sounds to me like you may be confusing the 5 Solas with the 5 points of 'TULIP'. I think that any semi-Pelagian would agree with the 5 Solas...I know I did before I got Reformed!!

However, I think the 5 Points expand on the Sola Gratia, and it is the 5 Points that Reformed theologians say stand or fall together. You had said you don't buy the 'Irresistable Grace'. Here's where the 5 points stand or fall together....if you really understand Total Depravity or Unconditional Election, then Irresistable Grace and Limited Atonement fall right into place because then you are interpreting Scripture through the correct lens of Scripture.

Many contemporary Reformed theologians have made the case that the labels in TULIP are actually worded very badly. I tend to agree with them. 'Total Depravity' makes it sound like men are as evil as they could possibly be, when that obviously is not the case. It might help to change the labels of TULIP. I'd recommend reading RC Sproul's Chosen By God. He does a much better job than I could of explaining all this.

 

[James1979]

I have a question about your 5 solas and the tulip. Do most if not all reform churches believe that God uses faith as an instrument to bring someone to salvation. Can you define the word instrument with faith that God uses to justify an unbeliever. I whole heartly disagree with this teaching but wanted to know the meaning of the term instrument and how it is use in someone's salvation. Through my studies comparing scripture with scripture, the saving faith for someone's salvation is Christ' faith.

 

[frumanchu]

I have a question about your 5 solas and the tulip. Do most if not all reform churches believe that God uses faith as an instrument to bring someone to salvation. Can you define the word instrument with faith that God uses to justify an unbeliever. I whole heartly disagree with this teaching but wanted to know the meaning of the term instrument and how it is use in someone's salvation. Through my studies comparing scripture with scripture, the saving faith for someone's salvation is Christ' faith.

When we speak of it as being the "instrument" we are speaking in causal terms.

There are different types of causes:

formal: the design or idea
material: the material means
instrumental: the instrument
efficient: chief agent causing it
sufficient: equal to the task of causing it
final: purpose

Think of a sculpture. The formal cause is the mental or drawn image that the sculpture is made according to. The material cause is obviously the material (marble, ice, etc.) that the sculpture is made from. The instrumental cause is the instrument (chissel, chainsaw, etc) the sculpture is made with. The efficient cause could be seen as the sculptor. The final cause is the reason the sculptor sculpted. The sufficient cause could also be seen as the scupltor.

There is a sense in which all of these things caused the sculpture.

In the case of salvation, the instrumental cause of our salvation is faith. The material cause of our salvation is Christ's righteousness. The Holy Spirit is both the efficient cause (in applying the work of Christ to us) and the sufficient cause (in regenerating our hearts and quickening us to faith). The Covenant of Redemption between the persons of the Trinity is the formal cause, and God's glory is the final cause.

There is a sense in which all of these things can be said to cause our salvation.

In looking again at what you said, I think what you may have heard actually was that God uses His Word as the instrument to "bring" men to salvation. Faith is the instrument God uses to actually save men (justifying them via the expiation of their sins and the imputation of Christ's righteousness to them).

Anyway, hopefully that has answered your question. If you have further questions, please feel free to post them in the "Ask a Calvinist" subforum and we'll be more than happy to answer them to the best of our ability

​

 

[James1979]

Well last me ask you one question? Who's faith is God using as an instrument?

 

[James1979]

Well last me ask you one question? Who's faith is God using? I believe that your analogy of carving someone's faith is not a good example because the believer who receives faith as a gift from God time to time takes his/her eyes off of Christ and falls as this is expected because of our body has not been changed as our spirit/soul had been from the moment of salvation. If that was the case about carving our faith, the image wouldn't look so good. By no means am I saying that we are justify keeping the whole law of God, because we can't. Plus God demand's perfection for anyone to be righteous in his eyes, we can't possible to do that even when we are made alive in Christ and walking in good works. God cannot use our faith that we receive from God to justify us, it will never be perfect like Christ' faith which is a enough to justify us plus his atonement paying for the indiviual sins.

 

[frumanchu]

Well last me ask you one question? Who's faith is God using?

It is our faith in the sense that faith is the response of the regenerate heart to the call of God. It is God's in the sense that He is the author of that faith.

I believe that your analogy of carving someone's faith is not a good example because the believer who receives faith as a gift from God time to time takes his/her eyes off of Christ and falls as this is expected because of our body has not been changed as our spirit/soul had been from the moment of salvation. If that was the case about carving our faith, the image wouldn't look so good. By no means am I saying that we are justify keeping the whole law of God, because we can't. Plus God demand's perfection for anyone to be righteous in his eyes, we can't possible to do that even when we are made alive in Christ and walking in good works. God cannot use our faith that we receive from God to justify us, it will never be perfect like Christ' faith which is a enough to justify us plus his atonement paying for the indiviual sins.

I should have been more clear. The example of the scupltor was purely one to explain the different types of causality, NOT to explain salvation. God does not "carve" faith out of us, He inspires it in us. We are justified solely on the basis of Christ's righteousness, NOT our own. We contribute nothing of merit to our own justification before God.