Quakers/Mennonites - Is it wrong to serve

I am not entirely convinced that it is always wrong, but I certainly think that serving in the military requires long and careful consideration. Quite simply, I don't think that most wars are morally justified. To give over to a mortal the authority to determine whether or not you will kill, or whom, strikes me as very close to incompatible with Christian doctrine. Further, many modern wars have at their roots little more than disputes over territory and power, the same as war throughout history. War for genuinely moral causes is rare indeed. Mere self-defense is not necessarily sufficient basis, under Christ's teachings to us, to justify killing! We are told not to resist the evil man. How far does that go? I'm not sure, exactly. But I am wary of arguments that reduce it to an empty platitude.

We are told to love our enemies. Shooting them doesn't sound very loving. Most people will argue that doing otherwise is impractical. Gandhi proved otherwise. King proved otherwise. We have seen, both inside and outside our faith, that what Christ taught us actually works.

We can believe that a Jewish carpenter, by means beyond our ken, rose from the dead, and saved us from our sins. Why can we not believe that peaceful solutions may achive what violence cannot?

So... I don't necessarily say it's unconditionally wrong. But then, I don't necessarily condemn all sorts of things that most people say are wrong. I am inclined to imagine that God, is His infinite wisdom and grace, may sometimes see things that I don't, and I try to simply love His creations, whether or not I would make the choices they do.

But... My gut level response to Christians in the military is about like my response to any other "obvious sin" that people might be involved in. My assumption is that it is a failure to accept a hard teaching... But, recognizing that it's a hard teaching, I don't condemn people for disagreeing with me.

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to seebs again."

Actually, let me share with you what I said to my son about this just before his senior year of high school, which happened also to be just a few months before 911.

I believe God has called me to peacemaking. It has been my conviction since I was a Mennonite teenager during the Vietnam era. I even did a little draft counseling when I was in high school. Now, we don't have a draft. I knew my son didn't have a well-defined educational goal, needed to grow up, could benefit by some discipline not provided by Mom & Dad, would benefit by seeing the world and could use some financial help for the rest of his education. Sounds like joining the military would be among the options he should consider, right?

I told him I'd rather not see him join the military. I was particularly concerned with the thought that he might volunteer for military service during peacetime. It sounds like an attractive option. It offers a lot of benefits. But those who join the military during an ongoing military conflict know what they are signing up for. They can make a judgment about the justness of a particular conflict. Those who volunteer during peacetime have no idea what they might be asked to do, and it may be really awful and immoral.

Some Mennonites and Quakers join the military as non-combatants. This is generally considered a matter of conscience. But killing is not something we think of as appropriate for Christians to do, for all the reasons Seebs mentioned.

I also agree with what Seebs said about having patience with those who don't "get" the hard teachings of scripture. Apparently, God accepts this, too. God sent Jeremiah to prophesy:[bible]jeremiah 29:4-9[/bible]

Yet the people's response is one of the Psalms:[bible]psalms 137[/bible]

Wow.

Putting those two passages together really says a lot.

d0c markus said:

Do you guys think that it is wrong to serve in the military/police or any other branch of govt? And if so can you show me why?

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It is wrong for Christians to kill or to be a party to killing, therefore it is wrong for Christians to be in the military, since killing is an inseparable part of the function of the military.

Chrisitians can certainly serve in areas of government that do not kill, such as social work, administration, accounting, and yes, even park planning. I've worked for the government all my adult life, first as a librarian, and now as a park planner. I think it's perfectly fine to work in areas that affirm life and make life better, but it is wrong to work for an organization whose mission requires killing.

d0c markus said:

I dont understand the verses and the connection your trying to make with the afore mentioned topic.

Could you spell it out for me... i'm slow

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Compare the way God told the people to pray in Jeremiah to the way they actually did pray in the Psalm.

WRT their connection to the topic, Mennonites and Quakers would say we should not kill, but rather that God wants us to pray for the welfare of our enemies. But God also knows that some people just don't get that idea, and apparently accepts the prayers and service of these people, however misguided.

lambslove said:

It is wrong for Christians to kill or to be a party to killing, therefore it is wrong for Christians to be in the military, since killing is an inseparable part of the function of the military.

Chrisitians can certainly serve in areas of government that do not kill, such as social work, administration, accounting, and yes, even park planning. I've worked for the government all my adult life, first as a librarian, and now as a park planner. I think it's perfectly fine to work in areas that affirm life and make life better, but it is wrong to work for an organization whose mission requires killing.

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I know the bible says thou shalt not kill..
but it also says an eye for an eye...

How I think that justice (war on terror due to attacks on US) is MUCH different than killing.

Just curious to see your view...

God Bless,
Carina

Cright said:

How I think that justice (war on terror due to attacks on US) is MUCH different than killing.

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"war on terror"=justice??? Don't get me started...

seebs said:

I am not entirely convinced that it is always wrong, but I certainly think that serving in the military requires long and careful consideration. Quite simply, I don't think that most wars are morally justified. To give over to a mortal the authority to determine whether or not you will kill, or whom, strikes me as very close to incompatible with Christian doctrine. Further, many modern wars have at their roots little more than disputes over territory and power, the same as war throughout history. War for genuinely moral causes is rare indeed. Mere self-defense is not necessarily sufficient basis, under Christ's teachings to us, to justify killing! We are told not to resist the evil man. How far does that go? I'm not sure, exactly. But I am wary of arguments that reduce it to an empty platitude.

We are told to love our enemies. Shooting them doesn't sound very loving. Most people will argue that doing otherwise is impractical. Gandhi proved otherwise. King proved otherwise. We have seen, both inside and outside our faith, that what Christ taught us actually works.

We can believe that a Jewish carpenter, by means beyond our ken, rose from the dead, and saved us from our sins. Why can we not believe that peaceful solutions may achive what violence cannot?

So... I don't necessarily say it's unconditionally wrong. But then, I don't necessarily condemn all sorts of things that most people say are wrong. I am inclined to imagine that God, is His infinite wisdom and grace, may sometimes see things that I don't, and I try to simply love His creations, whether or not I would make the choices they do.

But... My gut level response to Christians in the military is about like my response to any other "obvious sin" that people might be involved in. My assumption is that it is a failure to accept a hard teaching... But, recognizing that it's a hard teaching, I don't condemn people for disagreeing with me.

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to everything you said!

When you join the military, you are saying that you will unconditionally serve the military commanders - thus, you're putting the military in the place that only God should be in. I think it's something that should stop people in their tracks and make them really re-consider.

Cright said:

I know the bible says thou shalt not kill..
but it also says an eye for an eye...

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Let's see the full context, perhaps?

[bible]Exodus 21:20-26[/bible]

This is, in fact, part of a longer passage saying that, if you injure someone, you are liable to compensate them for that injury.

[bible]Matthew 5:38-39[/bible]

And anyway, Jesus specifically and very clearly rejects it. He refers to it, and then says that, while that is what was once said, He doesn't accept it.

It's good to quote the Bible, but you should at least be aware of what Jesus said about the passage you're referring to!

How I think that justice (war on terror due to attacks on US) is MUCH different than killing.

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1. It is unambiguously killing. It may not be murder, but it is certainly killing.
2. What do we know of "justice"? Perhaps we should leave the question of justice in the hands of the Judge.

[bible]Romans 12:17-21[/bible]

I don't believe this passage can possibly be taken to condone military responses to military attacks. The closest we get is Paul's qualifier "as much as lieth in you"; he recognizes that this is a hard teaching for us.

Not also that many of the people being killed in the "war on terror" were bystanders to it; any connections between Iraq and attacks on us are tenuous at best. With Afghanistan, at least we had that defense. With Iraq, it seems pretty clear that there was no such connection.

It might be possible to justify the war in Iraq, not as just retaliation for injuries (for retaliation for our injuries is denied us as part of our faith), but as an attempt to liberate captives. And yet... I am not sure the method chosen is a good one. Does a bad tree bear good fruit? How, then, shall the deaths of innocents achieve a good end?

Just curious to see your view...

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My view on this is about the same as my view towards people who come up with elaborate explanations for how their money really belongs to God, so they aren't liable for taxes, or how all property is God's, and they're serving God, so it's not stealing when they take stuff. Basically, I feel about the same way about defenses of Christian military action as most folks here probably feel about defenses of Christians who don't adhere to traditional sexual morality. The main difference is, I'm willing to agree that this is a hard teaching, and I won't condemn people for not living up to the standards I have come to believe we are called to.

Cright said:

I know the bible says thou shalt not kill..
but it also says an eye for an eye...

How I think that justice (war on terror due to attacks on US) is MUCH different than killing.

Just curious to see your view...

God Bless,
Carina

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before anyone tries to rip my head off further...
let me just say that I never stated that I agree with how things are being handeled in the 'war on terror' but I do agree that punishment needs to be done to the terrorists and that war should be declaired.

I also used the wrong word in the sentance above.. I should have used "murdering".. YES it is killing.. but I the two words do have different definations.

I'm definatly NOT where the buck stops when it comes to justice.. but I won't look the other way if someone slaps my family member.. a nation should not look the other way and let people murder (yes I know which word I'm using this time) our countrymen.

My view on this is about the same as my view towards people who come up with elaborate explanations for how their money really belongs to God, so they aren't liable for taxes, or how all property is God's, and they're serving God, so it's not stealing when they take stuff. Basically, I feel about the same way about defenses of Christian military action as most folks here probably feel about defenses of Christians who don't adhere to traditional sexual morality. The main difference is, I'm willing to agree that this is a hard teaching, and I won't condemn people for not living up to the standards I have come to believe we are called to.

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okay this confuses me... sorry.

Yeah.. everything I have belongs to God.. which is why I pay my taxes(God told us specifically to), and realised I should never be in debt, but in a position to loan to someone in need, why I should never steal (also directly commanded, and bad witness to boot)... which I'm assuming are similar views of yours.. right? What does this have to do with war? <-- not sarcastic tone, inquisitive.. i'm honestly not sure where u were trying to go with this, or what type of analogy you are trying to make.

....going back though to exodus...
22 "If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely [5] but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows. 23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

the words "you are to take" (end of 23) does not sound like "giving" compensation.. I'm sure you have studied the bible longer than me... I've only been reading it for about 3 years and truly studying in depth for about a year.. please feel free to explain if I've missed something...

Thanks and God Bless,
Carina

Cright said:

before anyone tries to rip my head off further...
let me just say that I never stated that I agree with how things are being handeled in the 'war on terror' but I do agree that punishment needs to be done to the terrorists and that war should be declaired.

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Well, I understand that, but I can't reconcile it with what Jesus taught us. We are told that the LORD will take care of these things, and we should not try.

I'm definatly NOT where the buck stops when it comes to justice.. but I won't look the other way if someone slaps my family member.. a nation should not look the other way and let people murder (yes I know which word I'm using this time) our countrymen.

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Well, that's the thing. We have been commanded to love even our enemies, to be kind to them, to bring them food when they are hungry, and water when they are thirsty.

What's wrong with doing that?

Yeah.. everything I have belongs to God.. which is why I pay my taxes(God told us specifically to), and realised I should never be in debt, but in a position to loan to someone in need, why I should never steal (also directly commanded, and bad witness to boot)... which I'm assuming are similar views of yours.. right? What does this have to do with war? <-- not sarcastic tone, inquisitive.. i'm honestly not sure where u were trying to go with this, or what type of analogy you are trying to make.

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My point is that I see excuses for war the same way I see excuses for theft. We were commanded not to do that.

....going back though to exodus...
22 "If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely [5] but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows. 23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

the words "you are to take" (end of 23) does not sound like "giving" compensation.. I'm sure you have studied the bible longer than me... I've only been reading it for about 3 years and truly studying in depth for about a year.. please feel free to explain if I've missed something...

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If I sue you for damages, I am "taking" compensation... But I'm still being reimbursed. I'm not actually injuring you.

But why are you focusing on the Old Testament passage, rather than the passage where Jesus quotes it and explicitly rejects that model as falling short?

[bible]Matthew 5:38-39[/bible]

What's ambiguous about this? Jesus says "I know you think this, but it's wrong." We are not to resist the evil man.

d0c markus said:

I really have to agree with you seebs. Normally I am not one to change my opinion too quickly but latley I believe this is what God has been teaching me, (which on CF most people I imagine kinda scoff at that, because its really subjective). Not more than 3 months ago I would have strenuously objected to your statments, but alas, in my opinion the truth sheds itself to all who will listen and are ready for it.

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It's been a rough one for me. I am still willing to say that it may be possibly to morally defend others, but I don't think Christianity allows for simple self-defense.

There is probably a good, pragmatic, reason for this: If you're judging injury to yourself, you are likely to overestimate it and over-retaliate. But if you are trying to decide whether to risk yourself for a stranger, your judgment is likely to be a little more fair.

It comes as no surprise that nearly anyone can easily find moral justification for killing ten thousand Iraqi bystanders in the hopes of preventing another attack on the U. S. from killing five thousand white people who speak English. This is a fallen world.