Qn: People raised from the dead.

[DaishinKan]

There are endless accounts of people being raised from the dead both in the old and new testiment.
2 Corinthians: 5-8 states:
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Which to me means there are 2 states of consciousness. You are either alive in the physical body or you are dead, and life instantly continues in the spiritual reality and in God's presence where you will be judged before him. I do not believe that there is any period where we just cease to exist / rest in our graves until a second resurrection.
But here we see that these people were all dead, until they were raised up in the bible stories. Not sleeping or unconscious but dead, without breath. So where did they go in that time period, maybe they spent some temporary time in God's Presence? They could have not entered heaven or hell certainly to just be pulled back onto earth.

 

[Anguspure]

There are endless accounts of people being raised from the dead both in the old and new testiment.
2 Corinthians: 5-8 states:
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Which to me means there are 2 states of consciousness. You are either alive in the physical body or you are dead, and life instantly continues in the spiritual reality and in God's presence where you will be judged before him. I do not believe that there is any period where we just cease to exist / rest in our graves until a second resurrection.
But here we see that these people were all dead, until they were raised up in the bible stories. Not sleeping or unconscious but dead, without breath. So where did they go in that time period, maybe they spent some temporary time in God's Presence? They could have not entered heaven or hell certainly to just be pulled back onto earth.

Simple....they were dead.

 

[redleghunter]

There are endless accounts of people being raised from the dead both in the old and new testiment.
2 Corinthians: 5-8 states:
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Which to me means there are 2 states of consciousness. You are either alive in the physical body or you are dead, and life instantly continues in the spiritual reality and in God's presence where you will be judged before him. I do not believe that there is any period where we just cease to exist / rest in our graves until a second resurrection.
But here we see that these people were all dead, until they were raised up in the bible stories. Not sleeping or unconscious but dead, without breath. So where did they go in that time period, maybe they spent some temporary time in God's Presence? They could have not entered heaven or hell certainly to just be pulled back onto earth.

Paul in the cited 2 Corinthians 5 is speaking of an intermediary state of a believer when he says absent from the body present with the Lord. If you read the previous chapter 4, (2 Corinthians 4:16-18) you will see a distinction between our outer man and inner man. It is the inner many Paul speaks of which will be present with the Lord upon the outer man our mortal bodies die.

However, always remember the promise is for us to be bodily resurrected as Jesus is and these are immortal bodies to live in His kingdom.

Hope this helps!

 

[Douggg]

But here we see that these people were all dead, until they were raised up in the bible stories. Not sleeping or unconscious but dead, without breath. So where did they go in that time period, maybe they spent some temporary time in God's Presence? They could have not entered heaven or hell certainly to just be pulled back onto earth.

No they did not go to the third heaven where God's throne is, because salvation was not available until after Jesus's resurrection.

Christians who physically die, their souls go directly to the third heaven where God's throne is. Not to be judged, but to enter into rest - until someday what used to their physical bodies are resurrected into glorious incorruptible bodies, and reunited with their souls which had gone to heaven.

That resurrection has not taken place yet.

Of the individual resurrections back alive in these current bodies you refer to in various bible stories...like Lazarus...their souls went to the place of the dead, called hell. Although hell is generally thought of a bad place, according to the story of Lazarus and the rich man - hell has two sides, on side of comfort for them who were righteous; and another side for the wicked, a place of torment.

Hell is still active, because there are people who reject Jesus who go there, and people who are wicked, to await the great white throne judgement.

And on the comfort side, persons who never heard of Jesus during their lifetime to receive salvation - like persons in South America before the Europeans brought the news of the gospel to them that they would even be aware.

Jesus when he was crucified, during the three days his body was dead, his soul descended into hell and he preached the gospel of salvation to them - and emptied hell out, everyone in there who believed him.

Since then hell has been filling up again (does not apply to Christians) with the wicked and the righteous sides.

At the end of Jesus's 1000 year reign upon this earth, at his Second Coming - that is when those people in hell will be judged. They will be judged according to their works, and whether they would have accepted Jesus or not. Hell itself, the place, will no longer have a function and it will be destroyed, cast into the lake of fire. Here are the verses.... (keep in mind if you are presently a Christian, you are not subject to this judgement, but have passed from judgment to salvation.)

Revelation 20:
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Anguspure]

Paul in the cited 2 Corinthians 5 is speaking of an intermediary state of a believer when he says absent from the body present with the Lord. If you read the previous chapter 4, (2 Corinthians 4:16-18) you will see a distinction between our outer man and inner man. It is the inner many Paul speaks of which will be present with the Lord upon the outer man our mortal bodies die.

However, always remember the promise is for us to be bodily resurrected as Jesus is and these are immortal bodies to live in His kingdom.

Hope this helps!

For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling....because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling.

No intermediary state here. Only the clothed with mortality and then clothed with immortality.

 

[redleghunter]

No intermediary state here. Only the clothed with mortality and then clothed with immortality.

We already exchanged many posts on this subject.

The gentleman asking the question can clearly read the Scriptures for himself without bringing in String theory.

 

[redleghunter]

Of the individual resurrections back alive in these current bodies you refer to in various bible stories...like Lazarus...their souls went to the place of the dead, called hell. Although hell is generally thought of a bad place, according to the story of Lazarus and the rich man - hell has two sides, on side of comfort for them who were righteous; and another side for the wicked, a place of torment.

I think most modern translations put the place of resting as Hades for the rich man and the Bosom of Abraham for Lazarus.

 

[Douggg]

I think most modern translations put the place of resting as Hades for the rich man and the Bosom of Abraham for Lazarus.

I agree in general. But since they are in near proximity to each other for Lazarus and the rich man to have a talk, I would say both are in hell.

And those two sides were separated by a great gulf - which I believe is the bottomless pit.

 

[redleghunter]

I agree in general.

And those two sides were separated by a great gulf - which I believe is the bottomless pit.

I'm just responding to the parable of Lazarus and the rich man.

Which passages are you referring to where Jesus descends into hell?

 

[Douggg]

I'm just responding to the parable of Lazarus and the rich man.

Which passages are you referring to where Jesus descends into hell?

Actually, I went back and searched it out and to make sure I was exactly right. So I looked in Ephesians 4:9 - which doesn't say hell directly, but the lower parts of the earth. To me, it is metaphoric to going to where the place of the dead is, in some dimension we cannot pinpoint locate because it is outside of our own dimension.

Anyway, I edited my post - at the same time you had made yours to me asking for my references.

I did not even know what forum I was in when I made my first post in this thread. I just happened to glance to the right column at all the recent posts and this thread caught my eye. I almost exclusively stay in the eschatology forum.

 

[redleghunter]

Actually, I went back and searched it out and to make sure I was exactly right. So I looked in Ephesians 4:9 - which doesn't say hell directly, but the lower parts of the earth. To me, it is metaphoric to going to where the place of the dead is, in some dimension we cannot pinpoint locate because it is outside of our own dimensions.

Anyway, I edited my post - at the same time you had made yours to me asking for my references.

Thanks.

Here's a good source which may be a good explanation of the above verses.

He Descended into Hell?

 

[Anguspure]

We already exchanged many posts on this subject.

The gentleman asking the question can clearly read the Scriptures for himself without bringing in String theory.

Then clearly he should have little trouble avoiding the invocation of ideas that do not appear in scripture.
I just wished to give him a little helping hand is all, since many might try to interject all sorts of other things that aren't there.

 

[Hank77]

Thanks.

Here's a good source which may be a good explanation of the above verses.

He Descended into Hell?

I believe this is the best explanation that I have read, with scriptural support for each statement. Thanks for posting it.

 

[Ron Gurley]

Jesus ' descent into Hades:

2 Peter 3
18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God,
having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;
19 in which also He went (descended) and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, (Abraham's Busom = Hades + Paradise: REF: Luke 16)
20 who once were disobedient,

Body / Soul combo is mortal.
Spirit is immortal.
And "housed" in the mortal.

At death:

Luke 23:46
And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said,
“Father, into Your hands I commit My (immortal) spirit.” Having said this, He breathed His last. (mortal Body/Soul combo bled to death)

 

[Ron Gurley]

JESUS' DEATH...a BELIEVER'S DEATH...then what?

Let's try it this way....

Jesus the God-Man had a composition generally like ours (BUT unique / only begotten)....

He was divided into 3 parts:
1. SPIRIT = (God "Image" and Person of the God Head...pneuma),
2. SOUL = (~personality interacting with body....psyche) and
3. BODY = (~man's machine, controlled by brain/CNS...sarx)

Step #1 ...
Jesus surrendered his SPIRIT on the Cross...before the end of "Day" 1
Luke 23:46
Jesus called out with a loud voice,
“Father, into your hands I commit my SPIRIT.”

Step #2
When he had said this, he breathed his last. (Body/Soul combo bled to death / "died" without decay)

Step #3
Body/Soul mummified and entombed.......before the end of "Day" 1

Step#4
Luke 23:43...Jesus: 1 of 7 sayings from the Cross..
Jesus answered him (thief) , "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."...(on the cross)...before earthly Resurrection!
...Jesus was in "Paradise" between the time of Body/Soul death and "resurrection" of His SPECIAL body.

Jesus' Spirit goes to the "Paradise" side of "Abraham's Busom" to free
the souls/spirits of believers, who were awaiting for Messsiah, into heaven.
The unbelievers in "Hades" were released for eternal judgment....
...during the of "Days" before reunion of SPIRIT / SOUL / BODY = "spirit body"
SEE: Luke 19:16-31

1 Peter 3: 18-19 (NIV with my comments)
(Jesus the Christ's BODY) being put to death in the flesh, but made (spiritually) alive by (God) the (Holy) Spirit,
19 by whom also He (resurrected Jesus) went and preached to (~released) the spirits (souls) in prison,...
("Paradise" side of "Abraham's Bosom")

"Paradise"* - The ACTUAL spiritual abode was: "angel populated", "comfort(ing)", containing secret "inexpressible things"
---------------------
"Hades""** (Greek) = ~Hell = ~Gehenna (place of fire?) = ~Sheol (lowest grave?)
The ACTUAL spiritual abode was for the unbelieving and unsaved souls / unborn spirits of the dead,
AFTER physical death and BEFORE the Great White Throne Judgement (Revelations 20: 11-15 ) ...sheep or goats.
The abode was : CONSCIOUS, TORMENTS/AGONY, NO 2nd CHANCE, NO communication with the LIVING, and you can see "Paradise".

Step#5
Jesus:..."HE IS RISEN!....resurrection....on the "day" that we now call "Sunday"

What I choose to be BELIEVE:
" To be absent from the BODY/SOUL (earthly death) is to be present (SPIRITually) with the LORD ("eternal life")".
...a paraphrase of Paul, emphasizing differences in BODY / SPIRIT.

For the THREE parts of man, SPIRIT, SOUL and BODY,
SEE:
1 Thessalonians 5:23 (NIV)
May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through.
May your whole SPIRIT, SOUL and BODY be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 4:12 (NASB) ....difference in SOUL and SPIRIT
For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword,
and piercing as far as the DIVISION of SOUL and SPIRIT,
of both joints and marrow, (BODY)
and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.(spiritual conscience)

Luke 16: 19-31...Jewish Tradition.... and Jesus' descent to set the captives free...
TWO unseen and separated spiritual PLACES for the bodies / souls of the DEAD...= "Paradise"* + "Hades"** =
19 "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day.
20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores
21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 "The time came when the beggar died and the ANGELS carried him to Abraham's side.
(Abraham's BOSOM = "PARADISE" = place for those in or awaiting for Jesus the Messiah /GOD's presence)
The rich man also died and was buried.
23 In HELL (HADES), where he was in TORMENT, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.
24 So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus
to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this FIRE.'
25 "But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things,
while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.
26 And besides all this, between us and you a great CHASM has been fixed,
so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'
27 "He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house,
28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this PLACE of TORMENT.'
29 "Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'
30 " 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'
31 "He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets,
they will not be convinced even if someone RISES from the DEAD.' "

 

[JackRT]

Jesus when he was crucified, during the three days his body was dead, his soul descended into hell and he preached the gospel of salvation to them - and emptied hell out, everyone in there who believed him.

The word "hell" is never mentioned in the Bible. It is a word chosen by translators to express the meaning of Biblical terms like "Ghenna", "Sheole", and "Hades". The problem here is that none of those three terms refer to "hell" in the modern Christian understanding of the word. Today "hell" is a conflation of the meanings of those terms coupled with lurid medieval understandings best expressed by the Italian poet Dante in his Divine Comedy.

 

[St_Worm2]

You are either alive in the physical body or you are dead, and life instantly continues in the spiritual reality...I do not believe that there is any period where we just cease to exist / rest in our graves until a second resurrection.

Hi DaishinKan, first off, I see you are new around here, so WELCOME TO CF

As for what you said above, I believe you are correct. And in that belief we are both in good company, since the entirety of Christendom (e.g. Protestants, Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans, Baptists, Anglicans, etc.) all as one consider the sleep of the soul to be an heretical teaching, and always have.

Yours and His,
David

Revelation 6
9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;
10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”
.​

 

[redleghunter]

JESUS' DEATH...a BELIEVER'S DEATH...then what?

Let's try it this way....

Jesus the God-Man had a composition generally like ours (BUT unique / only begotten)....

He was divided into 3 parts:
1. SPIRIT = (God "Image" and Person of the God Head...pneuma),
2. SOUL = (~personality interacting with body....psyche) and
3. BODY = (~man's machine, controlled by brain/CNS...sarx)

Step #1 ...
Jesus surrendered his SPIRIT on the Cross...before the end of "Day" 1
Luke 23:46
Jesus called out with a loud voice,
“Father, into your hands I commit my SPIRIT.”

Step #2
When he had said this, he breathed his last. (Body/Soul combo bled to death / "died" without decay)

Step #3
Body/Soul mummified and entombed.......before the end of "Day" 1

Step#4
Luke 23:43...Jesus: 1 of 7 sayings from the Cross..
Jesus answered him (thief) , "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."...(on the cross)...before earthly Resurrection!
...Jesus was in "Paradise" between the time of Body/Soul death and "resurrection" of His SPECIAL body.

Jesus' Spirit goes to the "Paradise" side of "Abraham's Busom" to free
the souls/spirits of believers, who were awaiting for Messsiah, into heaven.
The unbelievers in "Hades" were released for eternal judgment....
...during the of "Days" before reunion of SPIRIT / SOUL / BODY = "spirit body"
SEE: Luke 19:16-31

1 Peter 3: 18-19 (NIV with my comments)
(Jesus the Christ's BODY) being put to death in the flesh, but made (spiritually) alive by (God) the (Holy) Spirit,
19 by whom also He (resurrected Jesus) went and preached to (~released) the spirits (souls) in prison,...
("Paradise" side of "Abraham's Bosom")

"Paradise"* - The ACTUAL spiritual abode was: "angel populated", "comfort(ing)", containing secret "inexpressible things"
---------------------
"Hades""** (Greek) = ~Hell = ~Gehenna (place of fire?) = ~Sheol (lowest grave?)
The ACTUAL spiritual abode was for the unbelieving and unsaved souls / unborn spirits of the dead,
AFTER physical death and BEFORE the Great White Throne Judgement (Revelations 20: 11-15 ) ...sheep or goats.
The abode was : CONSCIOUS, TORMENTS/AGONY, NO 2nd CHANCE, NO communication with the LIVING, and you can see "Paradise".

Step#5
Jesus:..."HE IS RISEN!....resurrection....on the "day" that we now call "Sunday"

What I choose to be BELIEVE:
" To be absent from the BODY/SOUL (earthly death) is to be present (SPIRITually) with the LORD ("eternal life")".
...a paraphrase of Paul, emphasizing differences in BODY / SPIRIT.

For the THREE parts of man, SPIRIT, SOUL and BODY,
SEE:
1 Thessalonians 5:23 (NIV)
May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through.
May your whole SPIRIT, SOUL and BODY be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 4:12 (NASB) ....difference in SOUL and SPIRIT
For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword,
and piercing as far as the DIVISION of SOUL and SPIRIT,
of both joints and marrow, (BODY)
and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.(spiritual conscience)

Luke 16: 19-31...Jewish Tradition.... and Jesus' descent to set the captives free...
TWO unseen and separated spiritual PLACES for the bodies / souls of the DEAD...= "Paradise"* + "Hades"** =
19 "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day.
20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores
21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 "The time came when the beggar died and the ANGELS carried him to Abraham's side.
(Abraham's BOSOM = "PARADISE" = place for those in or awaiting for Jesus the Messiah /GOD's presence)
The rich man also died and was buried.
23 In HELL (HADES), where he was in TORMENT, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.
24 So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus
to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this FIRE.'
25 "But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things,
while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.
26 And besides all this, between us and you a great CHASM has been fixed,
so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'
27 "He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house,
28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this PLACE of TORMENT.'
29 "Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'
30 " 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'
31 "He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets,
they will not be convinced even if someone RISES from the DEAD.' "

If I'm following correctly Ron, you just gave the trichotomost view run down. Am I correct?

 

[redleghunter]

The word "hell" is never mentioned in the Bible. It is a word chosen by translators to express the meaning of Biblical terms like "Ghenna", "Sheole", and "Hades". The problem here is that none of those three terms refer to "hell" in the modern Christian understanding of the word. Today "hell" is a conflation of the meanings of those terms coupled with lurid medieval understandings best expressed by the Italian poet Dante in his Divine Comedy.

True. I think all of the modern translations have corrected this for the actual Hebrew and Greek words.

Luke 16:23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham from afar, with Lazarus by his side.

 

[Ron Gurley]

Lest we forget other returns from the dead other than Jesus and Lazarus:

Luke 8 (NASB)...Jairus' daughter
49 While He was still speaking, someone came from the house of the synagogue official (JAIRUS), saying,
“Your daughter has died; do not trouble the Teacher anymore.”
50 But when Jesus heard this, He answered him,
“Do not be afraid any longer; only believe, and she will be made well.” (ALIVE!)
51 When He came to the house, He did not allow anyone to enter with Him, except Peter and John and James, and the girl’s father and mother.
52 Now they were all weeping and lamenting for her; but He said,
“Stop weeping, for she has not died, but is asleep.(METAPHOR!)”
53 And they began laughing at Him, knowing that she had died.
54 He, however, took her by the hand and called, saying,
“Child, arise!”
55 >>>And her spirit returned<<<, and she got up immediately; and He gave orders for something to be given her to eat.
56 Her parents were amazed; but He instructed them to tell no one what had happened.

Acts 20 (NASB) ...Paul and Eutychus
9 And there was a young man named Eutychus sitting on the window sill, sinking into a deep sleep;
(boring sermon?)
and as Paul kept on talking, he was overcome by sleep and fell down from the third floor and was picked up dead.
10 But Paul went down and fell upon him, and after embracing him, he said,
“Do not be troubled, for his life is in him.”
11 When he had gone back up and had broken the bread and eaten, he talked with them a long while until daybreak, and then left.
12 They took away the boy alive, and were greatly comforted.

1 Kings 17(NASB)......Elijah Raises the Widow’s Son
17 Now it came about after these things that the son of the woman, the mistress of the house, became sick; and his sickness was so severe that there was no breath left in him. (dead)
18 So she said to Elijah,
“What do I have to do with you, O man of God?
You have come to me to bring my iniquity to remembrance and to put my son to death!”
19 He said to her,
“Give me your son.”
Then he took him from her bosom and carried him up to the upper room where he was living, and laid him on his own bed.
20 He called to the Lord and said,
“O Lord my God, have You also brought calamity to the widow with whom I am staying, by causing her son to die?”
21 Then he stretched himself upon the child three times, and called to the Lord and said,
“O Lord my God, I pray You, let this child’s life (spirit?) return to him.”
22 The Lord heard the voice of Elijah, and the life of the child returned to him and he revived.
23 Elijah took the child and brought him down from the upper room into the house and gave him to his mother; and Elijah said,
“See, your son is alive.”
24 Then the woman said to Elijah,
“Now I know that you are a man of God and that the word of the Lord in your mouth is truth.”