Q & A Why did Paul break the Old Testament in Hebrews 8:13?

Soyeong said:

If obeying the letter refer to correctly doing what God has instructed and that leads to death, then that would mean that God is misleading us and should not be trusted, but the reality is that God can be trusted to give good gifts that lead to life.

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It means that though the law is spiritual, is good, is righteous, it is none ineffective because it activates death to rise up in the old self to OPPOSE it.

And I was alive without the law once; but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.
And the commandment, which was unto life, this very commandment was found to me to be unto death. (Rom. 7:9,10)

This is why he said no law was able to give life in Galatials 3:21.

The law is splendid. The law of God and good, and holy, etc.
But there is a rebel infested in man who rises up to drag men down from obeying it.
And it is stronger than man.

So then the law is holy, and the commandment holy and righteous and good.

Rm 7:13-17 Did then that which is good become death to me? Absolutely not! But sin did, that it might be shown to be sin by working out death in me through that which is good, that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful.
For we know that the law is spiritual; but I am fleshy, sold under sin.
For what I work out, I do not acknowledge; for what I will, this I do not practice; but what I hate, this I do.
But if what I do not will, this I do, I agree with the law that it is good.
Now then it is no longer I that work it out but sin that dwells in me.

The only solution is One who can come into us Who is STRONGER than this SIN - Jesus Christ who became the life giving Spirit.

Romans 8:1-4 -
There is now then no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus.
For the law of the Spirit of life has freed me in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and of death.
For that which the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, sending His own Son in the likeness of the flesh of sin and concerning sin, condemned sin in the flesh,
That the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the spirit.

I stop this post here. We should submit ourselves fully to the teaching of the Apostles, especially the Apostle Paul who pioneered to experience the grace of Christ that was with him.

We ought not twist words to try to hang on the fading glory of the old testament Torah keeping.
We must put our faith in Christ Himself living in us. That is Christ who is our life. That is to live is Christ.

Of course every word of the Bible is profitable to sensatize our conscience and feed our spiritual being that we may grow into salvation.
As newborn babes, long for the guileless milk of the word in order that by it you may grow unto salvation, (1 Pet. 2:2)

JohnD70X7 said:

No, the Lord made the stipulations up front that the covenant / contract entered into by both parties was depended upon compliance with the covenant or it would be broken.
And Jeremiah 31:32 / Yirimyahu 31:31 (Tanakh) clearly state that it was the people who broke the covenant.
Your argument is with him, not me. I simply read God's word and repeat it.

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The confusion here is caused by a misunderstanding of what Covenant Jeremiah 31 was speaking to.

Israel broke God's Covenant of Abraham that HE passed on to Abraham's children in Egypt, (Ex. 19:5) by building the Golden calf. The Tables of stone were destroyed, and the covenant was broken, gone.

Ex. 32: 9 And the LORD said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people: 10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.

There was no longer a Covenant that existed between Israel and God here. This also included the Priesthood and the command for Levi to minister before God in the Priest's office. It was all gone. But Moses stood before God and Israel and pleaded for mercy for them. (See Ex. 32: 11-14)

And Moses said; 26 Then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, Who is on the LORD'S side? let him come unto me. And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together unto him.

Then Moses said; 30 And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the LORD; peradventure I shall make an atonement for your sin. (There was not yet a provision for atonement in the Law)

God gave them in this first Covenant made specifically for Israel, the same LAWS, commandments and Statutes, but "ADDED" a Priesthood Covenant with Levi which included animal sacrifices and sacrificial "works" that Abraham nor the Israelites had.

Jer. 7: 22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:

It is this "Covenant" that Moses received the 2nd time, that provided both how God's LAW was received by His People, and also provided for the atonement of their sins through animal sacrifices that didn't exist in the Covenant they broke. In Jer. 31, you will notice, the 2 things that changed were;

#1. The manner in which God's Law was received.

#2. The manner in which sins were forgiven.

Nothing else changed. And both of these changes pertained exclusively to the Priesthood Covenant God made with Levi.

Mal. 2: 4 And ye shall know that I have sent this commandment unto you, that my covenant might be with Levi, saith the LORD of hosts. 5 My covenant was with him of life and peace; and I gave them to him for the fear wherewith he feared me, ( Ex. 32:26) and was afraid before my name.

Hebrews confirms this.

Heb. 7: 11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? 12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. 13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar. 14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

The Lord's Christ, God's Prophesied Priest, was not from the tribe of Levi, therefore, it was necessary to "Change the Priesthood Law" because Jesus was from Judah. So in the "New Covenant" it is no longer necessary to go find a Levite Priest to hear God's instruction in righteousness, for we all shall know Him. And here we are, all of us with the Oracles of God in our own Homes, in our own minds, just as God promised.

And in the New Covenant, it is no longer necessary to rely on the sacrificial "works of the Law" of taking a goat to the Levite Priest and killing it before the Priest would provide for forgiveness. The Lord's Christ, the Priest of God with HIS Own Blood, provides for atonement.

This is the Covenant Hebrews speaks to.

Heb. 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

The deceiver would have us ignore these Biblical facts, and believe that the Law and Prophets, or God's Commandments and instruction in righteousness decayed and vanished away.

But that isn't true, according to Scriptures. It was the Levitical Priesthood with its sacrificial "works of the law" that was "ADDED" 430 years after Abraham, "because of Transgressions", which became old and vanished away.

And of course it did. Certainly God knew His Son, the Messiah, would come from the Tribe of Judah when HE gave Levi the Priesthood Covenant.

Paul understood this. Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

AS Hebrews also confirms.

Heb. 10: 3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

It was this "added" LAW that was to lead them to Christ for atonement through His Own Blood.

Because the mainstream preachers of that time didn't believe Jesus was the Messiah, they continued to promote these sacrificial "Works of the LAW" for remission of sins. Paul battled with them throughout his recorded life.

JohnD70X7 said:

Yeshua Jesus fulfilled the Torah. No one else did. No one else could. Not even the Apostle Paul who was "blameless according to Law" (Philippians 3:6)... but was not saved by it (verses 7 and 8).

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Paul was "Blameless" according to the Pharisees Law, which the Jesus of the Bible Himself said were "Commandments of men". Paul even told us he persecuted the church of God. How is that interpreted as being "Blameless" according to God's Laws. He was "Blameless" as a Pharisees, just as there are men who are perfect "Catholics" or "Perfect Mormons", blameless in their perspective religious philosophies. But Paul never told you he was "blameless" according to God's Laws.

I hear this doctrine promoted a lot in the religions of this world God placed me in. And it always makes me cringe, as it is absolutely not true. Please reconsider this popular religious doctrine, and read what Paul actually says.

Gal. 1: 13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it: 14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

And what were the traditions of Paul's Father's?

Mark 7: 6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. 7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. 8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. 9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

And again;

Acts 7: 51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. 52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: 53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

No my friend, Paul did not ever say he was "Blameless according to God's Laws". He was simply a zealous Pharisee, a child of the devil according to the Christ of the Bible.

JohnD70X7 said:

Torah can only be kept by anyone other than Messiah by the imputed righteousness of Messiah through faith in him (B"H). When we are saved we are no longer under Torah (Galatians 3:24-25) but unt the New Covenant of Grace.

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That isn't what Paul teaches. It is, however, a popular religious philosophy of this world. Paul teaches;

Rom. 6: 15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Why not? Paul tells us.

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Sin still brings death, at least according to Paul. And obedience to God still brings righteousness, according to Paul. And remember, he is speaking to both Jew and Gentile in the Body of Christ.

17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.(Holy Scriptures) 18 Being then made free from sin, (Not from God's Law) ye became the servants of righteousness. (God's Righteousness, not our own, in my view)

I have found for some 30 years ago now, that when a man studies the Holy scriptures, "apart" from this world's philosophers and religious traditions, a different truth emerges. I advocate that everyone trust the Holy scriptures, as Paul instructs, for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

JohnD70X7 said:

Um, try reading what he wrote:

Philippians 3:6 (KJV)
6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

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If a man separated this verse from the entire rest of Paul's words, and the rest of the Holy Scriptures, this man might be able to twist them to convince others that Paul called Himself "Blameless in God's Laws" here. This religious practice is common among the religious men of this world but does not garner truth.

But when a person seeks Biblical Truth, then they won't separate one sentence from the rest of the bible, in order to create doctrine. They will consider "ALL" that is written, like Jesus and Paul did. I will demonstrate how this works. Paul told the same story of himself to the Philippians and to the Galatians.

Phil. 3: 5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; 6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, (Pharisees Law) blameless.

To believe you, I would have to believe the Pharisees were blameless in God's Laws. But when I listen to the Jesus of the Bible, and the Law and Prophets, I find that the Pharisees, and their fathers, most certainly had a Law, but it wasn't God's. They even told us, "We have a Law, and by "OUR" LAW He must die". Surely you are not preaching to others and God's LAW condemned Jesus to death. But the Pharisees LAW did. And Paul was a Pharisees of the Pharisees.

I asked once, I'll ask again, how is persecuting God's Church being "Blameless in God's Law"? Did obedience to God's LAW cause Paul and the Pharisees to Stone Stephen to death? You should answer these prudent questions in this disagreement we are having.

The 2nd time Paul told the same story I have already recounted, and you didn't even acknowledge. But for those reading along, I will post it again.

Gal. 1:13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it: 14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

I also posted what the Christ of the Bible told both you and I what the "Traditions" of Paul's fathers were. Where is your Biblical support for the religious philosophy that Paul, and the Pharisees, and their fathers, were "Blameless" in God's Laws?

Can you show me even one LAW of God that Promoted the persecution of God's Church? Of course, you can't! If you were to actually
"Um, try reading what he wrote", you would be making the claim that Paul, as a Pharisees, walked in God's Law "Blameless".

JohnD70X7 said:

Um, no one calls out someone taking a passage out of context like I do.
But, you also cannot deny that the verse is in the Bible and it says just what it says.
That under the Law of Moses Paul said he was blameless.

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No, this is not what Paul says according to him. In the "Jews religion", in the Pharisees Law, he was blameless. I posted his own words in the two times he explained his former religion. According to God's Law, "he persecuted the Church of God", according to the Pharisees Law he was blameless.

In a discussion between two people, it is customary, and considered common courtesy, to answer questions asked.

Perhaps you might consider this the next time you engage in a discussion with others.

JohnD70X7 said:

And in passages throughout Romans and Hebrews it states that the Law of Moses
was inadequate to save forever.

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The Jesus of the Bible says "It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."

The Scriptures also teach that there was never a "LAW" that gave Life, once we Transgressed. I don't know who said the Law of Moses "saves forever" but it wasn't me. I do believe ALL that is written however, even the Words of the Christ, the Rock of Israel below.

Ez. 18: 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

JohnD70X7 said:

So, Paul's point was that he kept the Law blamelessly but it was not good enough.

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That is your point, not Paul's, at least according to his words, and if you would consider more than one sentence in the Bible, I believe you might see this.

1 cor. 15: 9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

And Jesus Word's also have value to me, who also defined the Pharisees, a religious sect in which Paul himself said he adopted, and by his own words was more zealous than others in this religion.

Mark 7: 6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. 7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. 8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. 9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

So you see, this is my dilemma in the world God placed me in. I have Jesus and Paul and God telling me one thing through the Scriptures that I post and many ignore. And I have "many" who profess to know God, telling me the exact opposite. And when I ask questions because of this, my questions go unanswered.

But I am supposed to ignore these things and choose to believe other voices in the garden God placed me in, who quote "some" of God's Word, over the Inspired Word of God Himself. Isn't that the same exact same thing that Eve was convinced to do?

JohnD70X7 said:

Only through belief in Yeshua Jesus (the Law of Christ) can we keep the Law of Moses adequately (for eternal salvation).

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That has nothing to do with your preaching that Paul called himself "Blameless" in God's Law.

JohnD70X7 said:

Romans 3:31 (KJV)
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

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But wait, you teach that Paul was Blameless in God's Law, as a Pharisee. So then, according to your philosophy Paul "Established God's Law" as a Pharisee, being "blameless" in it.

You are making no sense. When does Paul "establish God's Law"? As a Pharisee before repentance, or a servant of God's Righteousness after repentance?

JohnD70X7 said:

Galatians 3:24–28 (KJV)
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

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According to Paul's words, what Law was to lead them to Christ? Was it not a Law that was "ADDED" 430 years after God said that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws?

I would advocate that you empty your mind of all the religious noise of this world, and study for yourself what is actually written. Zacharias, Simeon, Anna, the Wise Men, these all were "LED to Christ" their Redeemer whose blood they knew would cleanse them. What Law led them to Him that was no longer needed once belief in Him came?

In my studies, it was the Old Priesthood which was a Shadow of the New. The Body of Christ has "Yielded themselves" servants to Obey God and have become Servants of God's Righteousness, just as their Redeemer was.

Heb. 10: 3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

This is the school master that led men to the Lamb of God.