Put down the pork chop?

How is J of D's words and condemnations against the Quran/Muhammad any different than your works against what you know of Christianity or of him?

If the true issue is one of ignorance and of intolerance why perpetuate more intolerance and ignorance at yet another religion? Does the Quran teach that two wrongs make a right?

Keep the McRib (I don't think it's really pork anyway) Go Bacon!

Do you want to discuss John of Damascus - in which case you'd be iabetter off in an Eastern Orthodox forum where there are likely to be some people who have studied his writing, or the Christian understanding of the Torah's food laws?

Jesus said (and enacted) that he fulfilled the Torah. The Christian understanding of that since Paul has been that in Jesus' life, death and resurrection the purpose for which the Torah was given to Israel came to its completion. In particular those parts of Torah that were about keeping Israel separate (circumcision, sabbath-keeping, the purity and food laws) would have to come to an end since the whole point of the resurrection is that the promises to Abraham have burst out and come true for the whole creation. To continue to keep separate would be to miss the whole point.

Nowhere does Jesus (whom Christians assume to be God) say the Law was done away with.

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The law has not been done away with in modern Christian/biblical teachings either. as it has already been said Christ full filled the Law of Moses. Meaning He completed the Law. In other word Jesus made the law so perfect, that no man can obtain righteousness (Or worthiness to be with God) by adhering to the Law.

Mt5:
The Fulfillment of the Law

17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Murder

21"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder,[a] and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother[b]will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,[c]' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.

23"Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift.
25"Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.[d] Adultery

27"You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.'[e] 28But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.
Divorce

31"It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.'[f] 32But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery.
Oaths

33"Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not break your oath, but keep the oaths you have made to the Lord.' 34But I tell you, Do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God's throne; 35or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. 36And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. 37Simply let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.
An Eye for an Eye

38"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'[g] 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
Love for Enemies

43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor[h] and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies[i] and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

In Verse 19 we learn that anyone who breaks the least of these commands is guilty of breaking all of these commands. Keep in mind now do we not only have the original commands to keep, but also the intentions of our hearts must be in accordance with God's will other wise it is the same as sinning out right.

So again, Once the least command is broken then one would find Himself unworthy of God if not for the blood atonement found in the sacrifice of Jesus. In completing the Law, Jesus didnot abolish the Law. He revealed the law in it's most perfect form. Which for an imperfect Man makes obtaining righteousness through trying to maintain the law a fools quest for glory.

Also, it's apparent in Acts that many years post-Jesus Christians were being held to the Law. This, according to Christians of today, seemingly changed at the Council of Jerusalem based not on a command from God, but the words and ideas of men.

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Actually it is in Acts 10 that God reveals to Peter that we are free from the dietary laws of the OT.

Peter's Vision

9About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. 10He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. 11He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. 12It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles of the earth and birds of the air. 13Then a voice told him, "Get up, Peter. Kill and eat."

14"Surely not, Lord!" Peter replied. "I have never eaten anything impure or unclean."
15The voice spoke to him a second time, "Do not call anything impure that God has made clean."
16This happened three times, and immediately the sheet was taken back to heaven.
17While Peter was wondering about the meaning of the vision, the men sent by Cornelius found out where Simon's house was and stopped at the gate. 18They called out, asking if Simon who was known as Peter was staying there.
19While Peter was still thinking about the vision, the Spirit said to him, "Simon, three[a] men are looking for you. 20So get up and go downstairs. Do not hesitate to go with them, for I have sent them."
21Peter went down and said to the men, "I'm the one you're looking for. Why have you come?" 22The men replied, "We have come from Cornelius the centurion. He is a righteous and God-fearing man, who is respected by all the Jewish people. A holy angel told him to have you come to his house so that he could hear what you have to say." 23Then Peter invited the men into the house to be his guests.

This, according to Christians of today, seemingly changed at the Council of Jerusalem based not on a command from God, but the words and ideas of men.

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If you believe the bible to be nothing more than the words of men then i can see a Muslims view. We on the other hand happen to believe that the Bible is the holy inspired word of God.

While that alone is suspect, it becomes even more so when you see an 8th century Patriarch who makes statements seemingly with the understanding that the Law is still in effect.

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The Men or "saints" found in the historical texts of "the church" may have an impact on a potion of the Christ believing population of this world, But i would say it is a small portion. Most of the people I know and even the people I know on this website take what these relics of the church have to say with a grain of salt, and a quick turn to scripture to see if his words stack up with true doctrine. It seems that secular historians, and those of "other" faiths know more of what men like J of D had to say than actual believers do.

I'm sure that as much as Christians love to hold onto the idea that they are not under the Law, most would be relieved if they found out this assumption was erroneous now rather than on judgment day. Am I right?

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If this were the case then the God we worship does not exist. I personally rather burn in Hell than to kneel before a God I do not know. I do not seek a place in "paradise" for my own reward. I seek a place near to the God I love.

I often ask people What if for some reason the descriptions for Heaven and Hell were at some point in History reversed? And, Heaven was a fiery pit, but The God you know and worship lived there, and Hell was what we know to be a literal paradise, but the presents of God was absent... Would you still want to go to Heaven? (the fiery pit) Just to be with God? Or would you still choose paradise?

Do you seek a relationship with God? Or do you seek a reward for a life well lived?
Do you really think you shall have either if you do not truly love the God you worship?
Will your love see you burn in Hell For what God wants? (Your love) Or will you pick a religion that pays you what you want for a life well lived?

I'm not even saying, that it's a fact that Christians are under the Law, just that matters of this nature should be reasoned out with an eye for what God wants, rather than what individuals want.

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If you honestly want to go through the Bible I can show you God has asked of us.

FYI if you never had a mcRib, it is a gelatinous BBQ smothered onion pickle thing. I try one every five or so years just to remind myself why I don't eat those things... Kinda like the cadburry cream eggs (1000x's too sweet)

On a side note Can a Muslim go easter egg hunting or eat easter candy??? Because technically It has little to do with actual Christianity or true Christian beliefs.

Musa80 said:

Don't get me wrong. I'm not persecuting Christianity on this issue. The point is, I left Christianity because of issues like this. Nowhere does Jesus (whom Christians assume to be God) say the Law was done away with. Also, it's apparent in Acts that many years post-Jesus Christians were being held to the Law. This, according to Christians of today, seemingly changed at the Council of Jerusalem based not on a command from God, but the words and ideas of men. While that alone is suspect, it becomes even more so when you see an 8th century Patriarch who makes statements seemingly with the understanding that the Law is still in effect. It's not a matter of persecution, but one of thought provoking.

I'm sure that as much as Christians love to hold onto the idea that they are not under the Law, most would be relieved if they found out this assumption was erroneous now rather than on judgement day. Am I right?

I'm not even saying, that it's a fact that Christians are under the Law, just that matters of this nature should be reasoned out with an eye for what God wants, rather than what individuals want.


I fear you may be right about the McRib

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The Law has not been done away with, but New Testament scripture did make some amendments to certain provisions in the Law, as drich0150 has pointed out.

The Law's purpose, as Paul pointed out in Romans 3:20, was to let us know what God considered to be sin. "Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin." No one is able to be justified in God's eyes by following the Law because it is impossible to keep all of it's points all the time. "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." (Rom. 3:23)

The Christian is still supposed to follow the Law to the best of his ability...he has not been "let off the hook" in that regard. However, and this is what is meant by the phrase "not under the Law," God does not judge Christians by their ability to keep all aspects of the Law. Instead, when one puts his faith in Jesus Christ, he becomes "justified freely by His [God's] grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus." (Rom. 3:24-26)

When the Christian stands before God, God will say, in essence, "you believed in my Son, Jesus, therefore I consider you righteous, and your sins have been forgiven and forgotten." "Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world." (Mt. 25:34)

Those who have not believed in Jesus Christ will still be judged by whether or not they kept the Law, which of course, they cannot do. Therefore, when they stand before God, they will hear Him say "Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels." (Mt. 25:41)

I would also say that Jesus fulfilled that Torah, in that he pointed towards the Torah, which is what this saying meant in Second Temple Judiasm. Therefore the dietry laws, the Sabbath etc have NOT been done away with but are there for us all to follow, although as gentiles we are not bound to keep them. We do however have an invitation to keep them as we are grafted into Isreal though our faith in Messiah.

So keep your McRib and give me a chicken sandwich anyday!