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I don't know Unitarians ... and if Catholics still teach that individuals can reach salvation by doing good works... it would be false.The evidence demonstrates otherwise:
On one end, you have Unitarians. On the other, maybe you have evangelicals. Then you have the Catholics. Get a representative from those three factions alone into a debate about the correct beliefs about salvation, while referencing Scripture, and watch what happens.
Which of these (3) alone are delivering 'false teachings', and why?
No. I said you can't rule out that it is so. I didn't make a positive claim here. You did if I remember well.You claim the verse, which states 'in the age to come", still means some level of heaven for believers whom commit blasphemy.
I don't know Unitarians ... and if Catholics still teach that individuals can reach salvation by doing good works... it would be false.
No, I don't think so.The authors of the Bible are the direct providers of confusion.
He already gave it. Romans 10:9-10.Is salvation based upon faith alone? Or is it works? Or is it a little of both? Regardless of what the answer actually is, I'm sure God would be happy to give you the answer.
But in looking at the verses you provided, they do not specify how to achieve salvation.
This is why I have difficulty believing you became a Christian, after reading the Bible.
How many times did you read it before you started to believe it? Was it instantly? Did it take a while?
My objective isn't to change the mind of the person for which I engage upon, or even the ones whom participate. It's more-so intended for the ones on the fence, whom watch from the side-lines, and read these posts later. The ones whom do not have any skin in the game. -- And later read these responses without too much bias, if that's even possible
Um, it is the claimed Bible we are speaking about here. Are you suggesting it is NOT based on actual events?
Disagree...
Matthew 25:31-46 is a parable. It's literal conclusion, is that He separates the saved/unsaved, by Him judging how much they help others. The ones that do not perform to Jesus' satisfaction are thrown into hell. This is direct instruction on what is required, to stay out of hell.
No, I don't think so.
The Bible shouldn't be blamed for every time the Catholics issue a false teaching, I think. It's them, in my opinion. I'm not Catholic by the way.
Neither should God be blamed for not being clear enough, I think, God merely spoke a simple language.
In my opinion, false teaching can't be backed up by the Bible.
He already gave it. Romans 10:9-10.
The passage from Matthew 25 concerning the so-called sheep and goat judgement applies to groups, such as churches of nations. They are not conflicting, as I said.
Churches can't have faith in their hearts as they don't have a heart. They are a group and the Romans vers does not apply to them as it does to individuals.
However, churches have the power to do many good works. Those kind of works that are mentioned in Matthew 25. When they get saved as announced in Revelations 2, it is because of their deeds, I guess.
I did address all your verses.
Regards,
Thomas
Yes they do. The whole New Testament positively screams it out: Faith in Jesus. Faith. Faith. Faith.
Not difficult unless you want to make it so. The path to Salvation starts with Jesus, ends with Jesus and has Jesus in the middle.
You want to know what to do to achieve salvation: Have faith in Jesus. Nothing else is REQUIRED, everything else is a consequence of that that ongoing choice.
Perhaps I'm just making it up? Maybe I've never read the Bible at all and just picking random verses out of the atmosphere in order to try and make an argument?
Or perhaps it is actually true and your inability to see that is the cause of the problem. I'm afraid your post implied that people who read the Bible would naturally fall away and I responded the opposite point that some people wouldn't, so now you you are saying that some people will be lost by reading the Bible. You've gone from implying all, to most to some. At least there is progress.
Yes and no. The Bible is made up of many genres not all of which one takes as literally true. When Jesus tells a parable about a certain man who was walking on the road, was there an actual man? If not then clearly this is not based on actual events. On the other hand the story of Jesus telling the story could well be based on actual events (and I maintain they were).
One only has to read the trial, death and resurrection accounts to see slight disparities. But that should tell the sensible person that none of them are absolutely true in detail, while being totally true in scope. In other words there is a set of events that happened and that some people have decided to record.
Same goes for the Old Testament. Is poetry absolutely true? When Proverbs personifies Wisdom as a woman, is it talking about an actual woman? Of course not. The genre is wisdom and it is making a point. Not the same as, say, the stories about David which are presented as historical.
Actually you haven't understood the purpose of the parable (the 'literal conclusion' as you put it). Basic hermeneutics is to understand it in its context. Who was it aimed at; who was the gospel written for? The answer is the same. The Jews. The same Jews who were convinced that wealth and power were a sign of God's favour and that the poor were not going to get to Heaven. Jesus turned that idea on its head.
Also this is not a direct instruction of anything. It is a parable. It is a guide not a rule. And the conclusion that this is about staying out of hell sounds like a very glass half empty approach.
here we disagree. Noone finds a verse saying that works can save an indiviual person. Even if the Catholic church claims otherwise: they are not Biblical authority to me.AGAIN, all believers, and non-believers alike, can reference or attribute differing verse(s) to amplify as THE way to salvation.
When Bible is clear in a matter, I refuse to ask God a second time about it. I won't ask him "God, did you really mean Romans 10:9-10 as written in the Bible?"You ignore, and/or refuse.
here we disagree. Noone finds a verse saying that works can save an indiviual person. Even if the Catholic church claims otherwise: they are not Biblical authority to me.
When Bible is clear in a matter, I refuse to ask God a second time about it. I won't ask him "God, did you really mean Romans 10:9-10 as written in the Bible?"
The Bible uses simple words both when it comes to linguistics and also when it comes to put it simple. Many things that are not 100% necessary to know for everybody .. are left to conjecture, as you say. I think this is because God wanted it to be so.
But there are other matters more important than that. In my opinion, when God leaves something to conjecture... it is better to turn away from that topic to deal with the more important one: salvation of individuals. as we are doing here
I see your point. What happens to those who committed the unforgivable sin... is conjecture indeed I think.Okay. How about Matthew 12:32? You asserted that this verse leads to conjecture. In line with Matthew 7:7, etc, can you ask Him to clarify what He meant there? If not, then your response above does not follow?
One thing is sure, though. One passage cannot negate the other. Theoretically, it could very well be that Matthew 12:32 and Romans 10:9-10 apply to different groups as @dcalling suggested. If they do overlap in a sense that saved people who committed the unforgivable sin exist... then it's conjecture on our part as to know what the restrictions are that (saved) people face when they have committed the unfogivable sin.
I see your point. What happens to those who committed the unforgivable sin... is conjecture indeed I think.
But man is not the judge. Jesus is. Let him decide. It's his business. I think it best to focus more on our business (preaching the Gospel and/or get saved).
This is at least my suggestion.
So now you said it is an issue of grave importance. One could lose a daughter to a drunk driver.
My stance here: before you have sex with someone... you know that this can lead to children... but you also know that here in this world you can't be sure that your children will reach the age of 18.
There're illnesses, terrorism, everything.
It belongs to the rules of the post-fall creation that anybody can die anytime. So you know that if you have a daughter... it's possible that she can die early. As sad as it is.
So when you know all of this beforehand... why is the issue of whether or not you still can be admitted to heaven if you blaspheme the Holy Spirit ... why is that an issue of grave importance, as you say? I'd rather call it a speciality.
Let the Lord decide, I propose.
Driving drunk is horrible though and needs to stop, here we agree.
One thing is sure, though. One passage cannot negate the other. Theoretically, it could very well be that Matthew 12:32 and Romans 10:9-10 apply to different groups as @dcalling suggested. If they do overlap in a sense that saved people who committed the unforgivable sin exist... then it's conjecture on our part as to know what the restrictions are that (saved) people face when they have committed the unfogivable sin.
Would you actually accept his explanation of what the verse means if he supplied an answer? Or would you simply retort that someone disagrees with him and that therefore God isn't clear? Why not just make the actual point you're trying to make?@thomas_t . First of all, thank you for engaging.
But please, please, address my request.I've asked at least (5) times now, and you have skipped right over it... In regards to the Biblical verses on blasphemy, you state it is less-than-clear. In line with God's instruction(s), He can be asked for clarification here (i.e.)
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye. shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh. findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened"
"If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.”
"Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours."
"And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it."
"In that day you will no longer ask me anything. Very truly I tell you, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name."
As listed above, you can ask Him what Matthew 12:32 is referring to exactly. Do Christian blasphemers go to a lesser heaven, or hell; (or), is the verse referencing something all together different?
I've tried to ask Him, and the request remains unanswered. Maybe you, the claimed truly faithful, might have better luck. A matter of fact, God guarantees you will be answered.
Please ask Him to clarify or elaborate upon this verse. With God's simple interjection, we can solve this little mystery.
Would you actually accept his explanation of what the verse means if he supplied an answer?
Or would you simply retort that someone disagrees with him and that therefore God isn't clear?
Why not just make the actual point you're trying to make?
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