Purpose Driven Life (problems, sickness, pain...)

[justinstout]

pg. 81 "Genuine surrender says, 'Father, if this problem, pain, sickness, or circumstance is needed to fulfill your purpose and glory in my life or in another's, please don't take it away!' This level of maturity does not come easy."



Is there anywhere in the whole New Testament where we are told to pray this way? People really should consider their theology before spreading unscriptural junk like this to millions of people.


What do you think?

 

[victoryword]

pg. 81 "Genuine surrender says, 'Father, if this problem, pain, sickness, or circumstance is needed to fulfill your purpose and glory in my life or in another's, please don't take it away!' This level of maturity does not come easy."



Is there anywhere in the whole New Testament where we are told to pray this way? People really should consider their theology before spreading unscriptural junk like this to millions of people.


What do you think?

Heck NO! The Bible teaches us to react completely different to the advice being given above:

Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms. Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. (James 5:13-16)
​

We are to pray for RELIEF from these things, for God to take them away, not for Him to keep them there. I have disagreed with a lot of the criticism of the PPL that is found on many web sites because most of them made up stuff about PPL or was just addressing it with personal bias. None of them addressed the real problems that I saw in the book. You just pointed out one of them.

 

[Tranceformer110]

I am not defending the Purpose Driven Life as I have not read it. I think 2nd Corinthians 12:5-10 should be considered though.

 

[victoryword]

I am not defending the Purpose Driven Life as I have not read it. I think 2nd Corinthians 12:5-10 should be considered though.

That passage has been considered and debated on this forum so much that it has become a very "thorny" issue.

Pun definitely intended.

 

[LittleRocketBoy]

That passage has been considered and debated on this forum so much that it has become a very "thorny" issue.

Pun definitely intended.

Yes, that discussion is sufficent for us...

 

[BarbB]

The Purpose Driven Life, IMO, has driven a wedge in the defenses of the church and has allowed all manner of New Agey stuff in. My church has had nothing but problems since it had an official study last winter. Personally I would like to find a way to cleanse the building and then offer up a service of repentence for taking that book so seriously.

 

[victoryword]

Yes, that discussion is sufficent for us...

Then we should most gladly glory in the weakness of the arguments used ...

Don't get me started LRB

 

[justinstout]

The Purpose Driven Life, IMO, has driven a wedge in the defenses of the church and has allowed all manner of New Agey stuff in. My church has had nothing but problems since it had an official study last winter. Personally I would like to find a way to cleanse the building and then offer up a service of repentence for taking that book so seriously.

Really?

Just about every baptist church that I drive by has had the "Purpose Driven Life study" going on. All this "40 Days of Purpose" and stuff. I really don't interact with many baptists anymore since I left the denomination several years ago.. I wonder if a lot of the other folks who did the same study that you did came out of it with the same response that you have..

What is everyone else saying about it?

 

[LittleRocketBoy]

Then we should most gladly glory in the weakness of the arguments used ...

Don't get me started LRB

Nay, rather we would glory in the revelations that we have come to....

 

[KleinerApfel]

I'm interested, in fact rather relieved that a few others have reservations over that book. I thought everybody but me loved it!

I read it a couple of years or so ago and felt quite condemned.
Purpose Driven - yes, that's exactly how it made me feel.

Don't remember the particular part mentioned in the OP, but agree it isn't biblical to pray that way.

God bless, love Sue

 

[Alpine]

pg. 81 "Genuine surrender says, 'Father, if this problem, pain, sickness, or circumstance is needed to fulfill your purpose and glory in my life or in another's, please don't take it away!' This level of maturity does not come easy."



Is there anywhere in the whole New Testament where we are told to pray this way? People really should consider their theology before spreading unscriptural junk like this to millions of people.


What do you think?

Yes, remember Jesus making it VERY clear to his disciples that he was
going to Jerusalem to die and no one could change that direction?

how about Paul who knew he was going to Jerusalem and would face great danger. He was warned by prophets and Christians in various cities pleaded with him to not go.

But he felt he had to suffer to further the kingdom. (most of his letters were written when he was imprisoned)

Eventually he was martyered for the faith.

Paul makes clear what types of struggles he endured for the gospel

2 Corinthians 11

I have worked much harder, been in prison more frequently, been flogged more severely, and been exposed to death again and again. 24Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one. 25Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was stoned, three times I was shipwrecked, I spent a night and a day in the open sea, 26I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my own countrymen, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false brothers. 27I have labored and toiled and have often gone without sleep; I have known hunger and thirst and have often gone without food; I have been cold and naked. 28Besides everything else, I face daily the pressure of my concern for all the churches. 29Who is weak, and I do not feel weak? Who is led into sin, and I do not inwardly burn?

 

[qpmomma]

The Purpose Driven Life, IMO, has driven a wedge in the defenses of the church and has allowed all manner of New Agey stuff in. My church has had nothing but problems since it had an official study last winter. Personally I would like to find a way to cleanse the building and then offer up a service of repentence for taking that book so seriously.

The Purpose Driven Life is a good book, but the first book should always be the Bible.

Christina

 

[justinstout]

Yes, remember Jesus making it VERY clear to his disciples that he was
going to Jerusalem to die and no one could change that direction?

how about Paul who knew he was going to Jerusalem and would face great danger. He was warned by prophets and Christians in various cities pleaded with him to not go.

But he felt he had to suffer to further the kingdom. (most of his letters were written when he was imprisoned)

Eventually he was martyered for the faith.

Paul makes clear what types of struggles he endured for the gospel

2 Corinthians 11

These verses about Paul were referring to persecution for Christ's sake.... they were not referring sickness or disease.

 

[pdudgeon]

pg. 81 "Genuine surrender says, 'Father, if this problem, pain, sickness, or circumstance is needed to fulfill your purpose and glory in my life or in another's, please don't take it away!' This level of maturity does not come easy."



Is there anywhere in the whole New Testament where we are told to pray this way?

i can think of a few instances where it was done. the most noteable would be
Christ in the garden--Luke 22:41- 42.
"He walked away, about a stone's throw, and knelt down and prayed,'Father, if You are wiling, please take this cup of suffering away from me. Yet I want Your will not Mine."

most of the time you will see this kind of courage exhibited by martyrs. Stephen would be a good example in Acts 7:59 "And as they stoned him. Stephen prayed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." and he fell to his knees, shouting, "Lord don't charge them with this sin!" and with that, he died.

I think that would fulfill your criteria of a prayer where the petitioner asks that the circumstance be allowed if it would
1.fulfill God's purpose,
2.bring glory to God, or
3.be used to witness to others about God.

I readily grant that 99 per cent of the time it is healing that brings glory or fulfills God's purpose, but i think that there can be exceptions.

 

[justinstout]

We are talking about sickness, pain, etc. There's nowhere in the New Testament where we're told to expect that type of suffering and to "endure it for Christ's sake". Sickness and pain is not needed to fulfill God's purpose in our lives. It's simply not in the Bible. Sometimes it seems that many people believe that God is so bankrupt that He needs the things of the devil to fulfill His will and purpose in our lives and to bring Him glory.

Even if we consider Jesus' prayer that you mentioned, we are never told to pray that particular way. Jesus had already told the disciples how to pray, and it didn't include receiving sickness and pain into our lives. That does nothing for the kingdom of God. Persecution comes as a result of preaching the Gospel, sickness and disease do not.

In the example of Stephen, he was being persecuted (and in this case, stoned to death) for the name of Christ. He was not battling the flu or heart problems. As I mentioned, persecution comes as a result of preaching the Gospel, sickness and disease do not. Even in this situation though, the stoning itself didn't glorify God, Stephen did.

 

[pdudgeon]

if you would like to separate out sickness and pain from your OP and discuss only those as they relate to glorifying God, we can do so.

that being the case, we would have to mention Paul's "thorn in the flesh" .
he prayed that it would be removed but God declined to do so, apparently thinking that it would do Paul more good to "endure" than to be healed.

or we could mention numerous brothers and sisters in Christ who have willingly served and died in leper colonies, knowing the risk of infection.

and we can't forget Abram and his son Isaac when thinking of pain, or Job.

the point here is that there are a very few Christians who are able to say to God "use me in any way, in any circumstance, to glorify You and further Your kingdom. Almost every one of us (if we admitted it) would add a "but" or an "except" into the equasion.

 

[justinstout]

if you would like to separate out sickness and pain from your OP and discuss only those as they relate to glorifying God, we can do so.

that being the case, we would have to mention Paul's "thorn in the flesh" .
he prayed that it would be removed but God declined to do so, apparently thinking that it would do Paul more good to "endure" than to be healed.

or we could mention numerous brothers and sisters in Christ who have willingly served and died in leper colonies, knowing the risk of infection.

and we can't forget Abram and his son Isaac when thinking of pain, or Job.

the point here is that there are a very few Christians who are able to say to God "use me in any way, in any circumstance, to glorify You and further Your kingdom. Almost every one of us (if we admitted it) would add a "but" or an "except" into the equasion.

First of all, I was referring to New Testament believers (on this side of the cross of Jesus Christ).

Secondly, Paul's thorn in the flesh was not sickness or disease but a demonic spirit sent [from satan] to stir up persecution everywhere Paul preached the Gospel. Also remember that several times Paul was warned about the danger of preaching in certain areas, yet he went against these warnings and suffered by personal choice, not because God told him to. Paul was not redeemed from persecution. We should expect persecution as believers since the Word declares that we will experience it.

Thirdly, sickness and disease does not glorify God. Preaching the Gospel, living godly in Christ, and being persecuted for it does glorify God.

 

[Kebisoni]

I have to say that the prayer of Christ in the garden of Gethsemane does seem to me to be exactly what Rick Warren is talking about - 'Father if it is possible, let this cup pass from me, but not my will but your will be done' - and if we are called to become like Christ - then don't we need to pay attention to how Jesus prayed? Isn't that sort of faith and surrender to God's plan good and something we should try and do?

I don't have a problem with that personally - because I know that everything works for the good for those who love him - and whatever the plan it is best to surrender to it because it can only work out well if you are in his will - even if to the world it doesn't look so good for now.

 

[Alpine]

These verses about Paul were referring to persecution for Christ's sake.... they were not referring sickness or disease.

But surely at some point in time if a 'John' Christian doesn't die from persecution he will die from something won't he?

 

[lismore]

I read it a couple of years or so ago and felt quite condemned.
Purpose Driven - yes, that's exactly how it made me feel.

Yes, we are not driven we are lead.

- he leads me beside quiet waters.