Purgatory

Swag365 · Aug 14, 2021

Albion said:
And yet prayers for the dead do not prove the existence of Purgatory. All they show is an appeal being made to God for his mercy, however and only if that is applicable, to be shown towards the departed.

That's what was observed among the Jews according to the passage in 2 Maccabees that is the leading "proof" text cited by people trying to say that the Bible teaches Purgatory or that the Jews did. Neither of those is in fact substantiated by that verse.

Well let's take a look at the text:

38 Then Judas assembled his army and went to the city of Adullam. As the seventh day was coming on, they purified themselves according to the custom, and kept the sabbath there.

39 On the next day, as had now become necessary, Judas and his men went to take up the bodies of the fallen and to bring them back to lie with their kindred in the sepulchres of their ancestors. 40 Then under the tunic of each one of the dead they found sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. And it became clear to all that this was the reason these men had fallen. 41 So they all blessed the ways of the Lord, the righteous judge, who reveals the things that are hidden; 42 and they turned to supplication, praying that the sin that had been committed might be wholly blotted out. The noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened as the result of the sin of those who had fallen. 43 He also took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably, taking account of the resurrection. 44 For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. 45 But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, so that they might be delivered from their sin.

Now, why is this group of Jewish people praying for dead people and making atonement for the sins of dead people so that they might be delivered from them, if they believed that the dead people were in Heaven or Hell?

Are they doing that so the dead people can get out of Hell and get into Heaven?

Are they doing that so the people in Heaven can get an extra reward?

Obviously, if the group of Jews believed in purgatory, it makes sense that they would pray for them and make atonement for them. But if that group of Jews did not believe in purgatory, it would make no sense at all to pray for them and to make atonement for them.

It's not a proof-text for purgatory, sure. But it should be obvious to any objective person that the verses strongly imply their belief in it.

Albion · Aug 14, 2021

Swag365 said:
It's not a proof-text for purgatory, sure.

That's right. And, in fact, it shows the Jews (who may be right or may be wrong) thinking that their own doings can result in sin being forgiven in the afterlife, which is NOT what Purgatory purportedly exists to do anyway!

it should be obvious to any objective person that the verses strongly imply their belief in it.

Not only does that not describe Purgatory as the CC defined it...but there's nothing compelling about some Jews having had a certain idea.

There are all sorts of things that some people did and thought before Christ came, and we certainly do not automatically consider all of that to be Christian dogma!

bbbbbbb · Aug 14, 2021

Albion said:
That's right. And, in fact, it shows the Jews (who may be right or may be wrong) thinking that their own doings can result in sin being forgiven in the afterlife, which is NOT what Purgatory purportedly exists to do anyway!

Not only does that not describe Purgatory as the CC defined it...but there's nothing compelling about some Jews having had a certain idea.

There are all sorts of things that some people did and thought before Christ came, and we certainly do not automatically consider all of that to be Christian dogma!

Quite true. There are some really curious, to say the least, beliefs among various ultra-Orthodox Jewish groups today.

Swag365 · Aug 14, 2021

Albion said:
I didn't say they were. Purgatory was created only a few years prior to the beginning of the Reformation, though, so any criticism about Protestants not challenging it during the prior 1400 years or so doesn't come close to making sense!

Well this is obviously false. You can easily find discussions of purgatory among the early church fathers:

Purgatory according to the Church Fathers

Let's take St. Augustine as an example:

Temporal punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by some after death, by some both here and hereafter, but all of them before that last and strictest judgment. But not all who suffer temporal punishments after death will come to eternal punishments, which are to follow after that judgment (The City of God 21:13 [A.D. 419]).

That there should be some fire even after this life is not incredible, and it can be inquired into and either be discovered or left hidden whether some of the faithful may be saved, some more slowly and some more quickly in the greater or lesser degree in which they loved the good things that perish, through a certain purgatorial fire (Handbook on Faith, Hope, and Charity l8:69 [A.D. 421])

There might be some basis for belief in something happening in the afterlife that is not either heaven or hell, but that doesn't mean that 90% of the theory of Purgatory can just be speculated on and then penciled in.

Well the issue here is that your "90% of the theory of Purgatory" is a straw-man. You present a straw-man about what the Church "really teaches" about Purgatory and then argue against the straw-man, instead of referring to official Catholic documents concerning the teaching on purgatory, such as that found at the Council of Trent or the Catechism. No Catholic should even countenance entertaining your straw-man.

Valletta · Aug 14, 2021

Albion said:
Purgatory as we know it was authorized and launched at a Catholic council in the 15th century, so it has nothing to do with which came first--Catholic Church or the Bible.

Some are. This one isn't.

I didn't say they were. Purgatory was created only a few years prior to the beginning of the Reformation, though, so any criticism about Protestants not challenging it during the prior 1400 years or so doesn't come close to making sense!

Except for those books of the Apocrypha that the Catholic Church expelled from the Bible during the 16th century.

It's not heavily implied, regardless of your willingness to believe it. There is virtually nothing in Scripture that can even be twisted into supporting the Treasury of Merit, Indulgences, and other elements that are inherent in believing in Purgatory. There might be some basis for belief in something happening in the afterlife that is not either heaven or hell, but that doesn't mean that 90% of the theory of Purgatory can just be speculated on and then penciled in.

What is in Scripture is so scant that to make a very technical and specific doctrine like Purgatory out of it is like saying that the Bible indicates that the Dead Sea existed in Jesus' time, ergo that proves the existence of submarines in heaven! Well, both are about water....so??

And as for the prison diary of Perpetua who was martyred in the third century, this is history, but it's not the Bible (which you've been saying proves Purgatory) and it's not Tradition (which the Catholic Church also uses to create doctrine, at least in theory) or the findings of an Ecumenical Council or the position taken by the Magisterium that is sometimes appealed to, and it's also not any kind of doctrinal consensus among the Early Church Fathers.

This is one person's accounts of her experiences prior to death and her own thoughts. You're trying to prove Purgatory with a diary entry.

You are under a misunderstanding, the Catholic Church teaches that purgatory exists and it may be a place or state. I don't know what you refer to by "90%." As always, if you are interested in what the Church really teaches check out the Catechism. I didn't say the Bible "proves" purgatory, it heavily implies purgatory and the Bible supports the Catholic teaching on purgatory. The Bible is not an instruction book or a catechism, it is a collection of texts that are God-breathed.

Swag365 · Aug 14, 2021

Albion said:
That's right. And, in fact, it shows the Jews (who may be right or may be wrong) thinking that their own doings can result in sin being forgiven in the afterlife, which is NOT what Purgatory purportedly exists to do anyway!

Not only does that not describe Purgatory as the CC defined it...but there's nothing compelling about some Jews having had a certain idea.

There are all sorts of things that some people did and thought before Christ came, and we certainly do not automatically consider all of that to be Christian dogma!

Well as mentioned above your "Purgatory as the CC defined it" is a straw-man. Let's look at what the Catechism says:

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607
As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608

The text of the Bible verse talks plainly of their sins being "blotted out" after death and them being "delivered from their sin" after death. This is entirely consistent with the Catechism where it states that certain offenses are forgiven in the age to come.

So you are incorrect in your assertion that the Bible text is inconsistent with purgatory as defined by the Catholic Church.

The Bible text is inconsistent with your "straw-man" version of purgatory, I would imagine.

Major1 · Aug 14, 2021

Swag365 said:
No, my "understanding" is exactly what Sacred Scripture states:

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Your "understanding" is that by faith only a man is justified, and not by works. Thus, your "understanding" is exactly the opposite of what the word of God expressly states.

No, James does not state that "saving faith will produce works". That is false. That phrase is not stated anywhere in James.

Nevertheless, I agree with you that a saving faith produces good works.

No, that is not what James said. That is your paraphrase and your interpretation of what James said, but that is not what James said. I reject your paraphrase and interpretation, and accept the clear word of God. This is what James said:

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Nonsense.

Amen brother. Amen!

I have talked to enough Catholic to know that you will only believe what the RCC tells you. I am not spending any more time on this So, Nice talking with you.

Swag365 · Aug 14, 2021

Major1 said:
I have talked to enough Catholic to know that you will only believe what the RCC tells you. So, Nice talking with you.

Have blessed day, my brother in Christ.

Major1 · Aug 14, 2021

Valletta said:
Prayers for the dead, and thus purgatory, was been part of Judeo/Christian beliefs all the way back to OT times. The movement to deny purgatory did not take place until Protestant reformation times. While Protestants dropped it, prayers for the dead are still said by Jews and other Christians, in the east and west. Since you are trying to imply a pagan origin, did you know that the name you identify by, "Christian," was first used by pagans? Consult the Bible, it tells you the first time the word was used.

2 Maccabees was dropped from the version of the Word of God used by Protestants, it was a glaring contradiction to their new teachings that purgatory did not exist. It was not actually physically removed from within the bindings of the King James until the 1800s.

What do you think that your post proves??????

"Prayers for the dead and Purgatory was good thousands of years ago so it must be good now. IS THAT what you are wanting to say???????

No friend.......wrong and un-biblical is wrong and unbiblical whether it was 6000 years ago ot yesterday.

I am not IMPLYING anything at all. I am giving you real historical facts. If you want to reject them......
no problem for me at all.

WHY DON't YOU do the work and see for your self??????

Plato’s Purgatory

The Pagan Origins of Purgatory

The Pagan Origin of Purgatory

The Apocrypha was removed when men who studied the Bible realized that it was occultic.

Major1 · Aug 14, 2021

Valletta said:
The Bible is the book of the Catholic Church, not the other way around. Catholic teachings are supported by the Bible, not all spelled out, such as our belief in the Holy Trinity. The concept of Purgatory was not "created" during the times of the reformation. Teaching is often formally declared by the Catholic Church because of heresy or disagreement. For example, the Gospels were well accepted as the Word of God long before the Catholic Church formally approved the Bible in the late 300s. Those Gospels were part of mass readings in the early centuries of Christianity. But there were differences (disagreement) in readings from region to region, and the Catholic Church wanted to determine what was and what was not the Word of God. The process spanned centuries. The first list of the 73 books of the Bible in the same order we used today did not appear until the 300s.

To me purgatory is heavily implied by the Bible, you have a right to disagree. But the understanding was there, in early Christianity. You can see from this book from 202 A.D. that the understanding was more than prayers for the dead:

"This Dinocrates had been my brother after the flesh, seven years of age, who died miserably with disease. . . . For him I had made my prayer, and between him and me there was a large interval, so that neither of us could approach to the other . . . and knew that my brother was in suffering. But I trusted that my prayer would bring help to his suffering. . . . I made my prayer for my brother day and night, groaning and weeping that he might be granted to me. Then, on the day on which we remained in fetters, this was shown to me: I saw that the place which I had formerly observed to be in gloom was now bright; and Dinocrates, with a clean body well clad, was finding refreshment. . . . [And] he went away from the water to play joyously, after the manner of children, and I awoke. Then I understood that he was translated from the place of punishment” The Martyrdom of Perpetua and Felicity 2:3–4

You said........
"Catholic teachings are supported by the Bible".........Really?????

Where then in the Bible is the Rosary?
Where then in the Bible is the Conception of Mary.?
Where then in the Bible is the Ascension of Mary?
Where then in the Bible is the practice of crossing yourself?
Where then in the Bible can we find the Words "Purgatory"?

Albion · Aug 14, 2021

Valletta said:
You are under a misunderstanding, the Catholic Church teaches that purgatory exists and it may be a place or state.

Right. There's no misunderstanding about that.

As always, if you are interested in what the Church really teaches check out the Catechism.

I am aware--of both what the Church taught for the first 500 or so years after proclaiming the existence of a Purgatory and, also, what the newest alterations to that position have been.

I didn't say the Bible "proves" purgatory, it heavily implies purgatory and the Bible supports the Catholic teaching on purgatory.

Very well, I thought that when we started, you believed that Purgatory was proven by the Bible. But it is true that you said, more recently, that you think it is only implied there. (That doesn't mean that it actually IS implied, however)

The Bible is not an instruction book or a catechism, it is a collection of texts that are God-breathed.

It is all those things. The Bible certainly does give us, Catholic or Protestant, most of the doctrines that our churches teach as true. Purgatory just happens not to be one of them.

Valletta · Aug 14, 2021

Major1 said:
You said........
"Catholic teachings are supported by the Bible".........Really?????

Where then in the Bible is the Rosary?
Where then in the Bible is the Conception of Mary.?
Where then in the Bible is the Ascension of Mary?
Where then in the Bible is the practice of crossing yourself?
Where then in the Bible can we find the Words "Purgatory"?

Once again, the Bible is the book of the Catholic Church, not the other way around. When the Catholic Church chose the 73 books of the Bible any text that was not 100% in compliance with Catholic teaching was rejected. The Bible contains texts that the Catholic Church decided were God-breathed, it is not an instruction book or Catechism, and does not contain all of God's Word nor all of history--it was NEVER intended to do so nor does it say it does. God cannot be confined to a book. The Bible does not contain all customs AND practices, it also never was intended to do so nor is such stated in the Bible. For example, churches were not built until maybe ten or twenty years after Constantine allowed freedom of religion. The practice of worshiping God in a church that contained or had a cross on top of it is not in the Bible, this, like so many other Catholic customs, has been adopted by Protestants. The rosary, for example, is very much praying the Bible. Who is against praying the Bible? We meditate on many Biblical mysteries, the Annunciation, the Nativity, the Resurrection, etc. Try it.

Albion · Aug 14, 2021

Swag365 · Aug 14, 2021

Albion said:
It is all those things. The Bible certainly does give us, Catholic or Protestant, most of the doctrines that our churches teach as true. Purgatory just happens not to be one of them.

No, that is false. Many fundamental protestant doctrines, Sola-Fide, Sola-Scriptura, "Once Saved Always Saved," "penal substitution," etc. are found nowhere in the Bible, and in-fact are contradicted by the Bible.

Swag365 · Aug 14, 2021

Major1 said:
Where then in the Bible is the Conception of Mary.?

You don't believe that Mary was conceived?

Swag365 · Aug 14, 2021

Major1 said:
Where then in the Bible is the Rosary?

Well let's start with Luke 1:28. That is where the "Hail Mary" in the Rosary comes from.

Would you like me to show you where the "Our Father" in the Rosary comes from?

Albion · Aug 14, 2021

Swag365 said:
Well let's start with Luke 1:28. That is where the "Hail Mary" in the Rosary comes from.

Part of it. The second part of the Hail Mary was added by the order of a recent Pope, and that section is the most doctrinally questionable part of the prayer.

Swag365 · Aug 14, 2021

Albion said:
Part of it. The second part of the Hail Mary was added by the order of a recent Pope, and that section is the most doctrinally questionable part of the prayer.

What, the part about Mary being the mother of God? I'm pretty sure that's in the Bible too my friend.

Albion · Aug 14, 2021

Swag365 said:
You don't believe that Mary was conceived?

It would help the discussion if you just answered the question. Where in the Bible is the immaculate conception of Mary described or referred to?

Swag365 · Aug 14, 2021

Albion said:
It would help the discussion if you just answered the question. Where in the Bible is the immaculate conception of Mary described or referred to?

Well that is an entirely different question.

I do not see the Catholic doctrine of the immaculate conception described or referred to in the Bible, although I find some of the "type" arguments based on the ark of the covenant and so forth to be quite persuasive.

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