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Purgatory
- Thread starter Zacharias
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Rising_Suns
'Christ's desolate heart is in need of comfort'
A Catholic is obligated to accept every doctrine/dogma the Catholic Church teaches.
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Rising_Suns said:
I kinda figured that. To say that one doesn't accept every doctrine/dogma would essentially be calling the Pope fallible.
Thanks y'all for answering so quickly.
Pax Christi, Freak4JC
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Rising_Suns said:
So those Catholics who accept all the doctrine/dogma have the privilege of calling themselves Catholics, and those who call themselves Catholic and do not accept all the doctrine/dogma are not truly Catholics?
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DreamTheater said:
Or a Burger King Christian ( Non-Catholics )
Hold the parables, hold the letters, special orders do upset us.
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Paul S
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xxRachaelxx said:
"Cafeteria Catholics" pick and choose which doctrines to believe or reject, just like a diner at a cafeteria selects which dishes he wants instead of having to accept a fixed menu.
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Paul S said:
So are Cafeteria Catholics really Protestants? How much or a what point is rejecting too much doctrine, push you over the other side?
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Rising_Suns
'Christ's desolate heart is in need of comfort'
Anthony said:
Ok, let me check the Catechism to see if the term "Cafeteria Catholic" has been officially defined in canon law yet....
....nope, not yet.
.
.
.
.
(the point of my silly post being, it's just a loose label for lax Catholics and by no means definitive)
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Paul S
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Anthony said:
Knowingly and willingly rejecting any infallible teaching of the Church places one outside her, so I guess you could say "cafeteria Catholics" are Protestant.
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Crusader05
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While some souls fly directly to heaven, others first go to Purgatory which is a place where some souls of the just, who died in the grace of God, may go for a time after their death to expiate any remaining imperfection. Who may still owe some satisfaction for their sins. The belief in purgatory is as old as Christianity itself. Some of the early Church Fathers wrote about an intermediate state after death; a way station on the path to Heaven. Many wrote about the importance of issuing prayers for the dead. Such prayers only make sense if a third state - one other than Heaven or Hell - exists. After all, if the person who died is in Heaven, prayers would be meaningless; if the person was in Hell, then they are already lost and prayers would not help them.
Early Christian writers included "Fathers Tertullian, Origen, Cyprian, Lactantius, Eusebius, Cyril, Gregory of Nyssa, Epiphanius, Jerome, Ambrose, John Chrysostom, Augustine, Gregory the Great, Venerable Bede and second-millennium theologians such as Anselm, Bernard, Aquinas and Bonaventure..." 1,2 Prayers for the dead are also found in early Christian catacombs and in early church liturgies.
Both purgatory and prayers for the dead were upheld by the major councils, beginning with the Council of Carthage in 394 A.D. For some Scriptural references I hope this may help.
Job 19:21 "Have pity on me, have pity on my, at least you my friends, because the Hand of the Lord hath touched me."
2 Samuel 12:13-16 David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the LORD." And Nathan said to David, "The LORD also has put away your sin; you shall not die. Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the LORD, the child that is born to you shall die." Then Nathan went to his house. And the LORD struck the child that Uri'ah's wife bore to David, and it became sick. David therefore besought God for the child; and David fasted, and went in and lay all night upon the ground. [Note that God has "put away" David's sins, but David still fasts. This is the same as in Numbers, when Moses was still excluded from the Promised Land even after he was forgiven for his sin of striking the rock twice with his rod.]
Ecclesiasticus 7:37 "A gift hath grace in the sight of all the living: and restrain not grace from the dead."
Ecclesiasticus 24:45 "And I will penetrate all the lower parts of the earth, and behold all that sleep, and will enlighten all that hope in the Lord."
2 Maccabees 12:43-46 "He also took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably, taking account of the resurrection. For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.
Wisdom 3:1-7 "But the souls of the just are in God's hand; no torment will touch them. in the eyes of the foolish they seemed to be dead; their departure was reckoned as defeat, and their going from us a disaster. But they are at peace, for though in the sight of men they may suffer punishment, they have a sure hope of immortality, and after a little chastisement they will receive great blessings, because God has tested them and found them worthy to be His. He put them to the proof like gold in a crucible, and found them acceptable like an offering burnt whole on the altar. In the hour of their judgement they will shine in glory and will sweep over the world like sparks through stubble."
Isaiah 66:15-16 "For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.
Daniel 12:10 "Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
Zechariah 9:11 "Thou also, by the blood of Thy testament, has sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein there is no water."
Zechariah 13:9 "I will lead that third into the fire, and refine them as silver is refined, test them as gold is tested. They will call on my name and I shall listen; and I shall say: These are my people; and each will say, "Yahweh is my God!"
Malachi 3:2-3 "But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
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Matthew 5:26 "Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing. [Note He didn't say, "until I pay the last farthing for you."
Matthew 12:32 "And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come"
Luke 12:47-48 "And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more."
Luke 12:58-59 "When thou goest with thine adversary to the magistrate, as thou art in the way, give diligence that thou mayest be delivered from him; lest he hale thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and the officer cast thee into prison. I tell thee, thou shalt not depart thence, till thou hast paid the very last mite. [RSV: "As you go with your accuser before the magistrate, make an effort to settle with him on the way, lest he drag you to the judge, and the judge hand you over to the officer, and the officer put you in prison. I tell you, you will never get out till you have paid the very last copper."]
1 Corinthians 3:13-15 "Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
2 Timothy 1:16-18 "The Lord give mercy unto the house of Onesiphorus [who just died]; for he oft refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain: But, when he was in Rome, he sought me out very diligently, and found me. The Lord grant unto him that he may find mercy of the Lord in that day: and in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou knowest very well.
Hebrews 2:27-28 "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
Hebrews 12:5-8 "5 And you have forgotten the consolation which speaketh to you, as unto children, saying: My son, neglect not the discipline of the Lord: neither be thou wearied whilst thou art rebuked by him. For whom the Lord loveth he chastiseth: and he scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. Persevere under discipline. God dealeth with you as with his sons. For what son is there whom the father doth not correct? But if you be without chastisement, whereof all are made partakers, then are you illegitimate and not sons."
"Be ye therefore perfect: as your Heavenly Father is perfect."
J.M.J.
plainswolf
Early Christian writers included "Fathers Tertullian, Origen, Cyprian, Lactantius, Eusebius, Cyril, Gregory of Nyssa, Epiphanius, Jerome, Ambrose, John Chrysostom, Augustine, Gregory the Great, Venerable Bede and second-millennium theologians such as Anselm, Bernard, Aquinas and Bonaventure..." 1,2 Prayers for the dead are also found in early Christian catacombs and in early church liturgies.
Both purgatory and prayers for the dead were upheld by the major councils, beginning with the Council of Carthage in 394 A.D. For some Scriptural references I hope this may help.
Job 19:21 "Have pity on me, have pity on my, at least you my friends, because the Hand of the Lord hath touched me."
2 Samuel 12:13-16 David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the LORD." And Nathan said to David, "The LORD also has put away your sin; you shall not die. Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the LORD, the child that is born to you shall die." Then Nathan went to his house. And the LORD struck the child that Uri'ah's wife bore to David, and it became sick. David therefore besought God for the child; and David fasted, and went in and lay all night upon the ground. [Note that God has "put away" David's sins, but David still fasts. This is the same as in Numbers, when Moses was still excluded from the Promised Land even after he was forgiven for his sin of striking the rock twice with his rod.]
Ecclesiasticus 7:37 "A gift hath grace in the sight of all the living: and restrain not grace from the dead."
Ecclesiasticus 24:45 "And I will penetrate all the lower parts of the earth, and behold all that sleep, and will enlighten all that hope in the Lord."
2 Maccabees 12:43-46 "He also took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably, taking account of the resurrection. For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.
Wisdom 3:1-7 "But the souls of the just are in God's hand; no torment will touch them. in the eyes of the foolish they seemed to be dead; their departure was reckoned as defeat, and their going from us a disaster. But they are at peace, for though in the sight of men they may suffer punishment, they have a sure hope of immortality, and after a little chastisement they will receive great blessings, because God has tested them and found them worthy to be His. He put them to the proof like gold in a crucible, and found them acceptable like an offering burnt whole on the altar. In the hour of their judgement they will shine in glory and will sweep over the world like sparks through stubble."
Isaiah 66:15-16 "For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.
Daniel 12:10 "Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
Zechariah 9:11 "Thou also, by the blood of Thy testament, has sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein there is no water."
Zechariah 13:9 "I will lead that third into the fire, and refine them as silver is refined, test them as gold is tested. They will call on my name and I shall listen; and I shall say: These are my people; and each will say, "Yahweh is my God!"
Malachi 3:2-3 "But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Matthew 5:26 "Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing. [Note He didn't say, "until I pay the last farthing for you."
Matthew 12:32 "And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come"
Luke 12:47-48 "And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more."
Luke 12:58-59 "When thou goest with thine adversary to the magistrate, as thou art in the way, give diligence that thou mayest be delivered from him; lest he hale thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and the officer cast thee into prison. I tell thee, thou shalt not depart thence, till thou hast paid the very last mite. [RSV: "As you go with your accuser before the magistrate, make an effort to settle with him on the way, lest he drag you to the judge, and the judge hand you over to the officer, and the officer put you in prison. I tell you, you will never get out till you have paid the very last copper."]
1 Corinthians 3:13-15 "Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
2 Timothy 1:16-18 "The Lord give mercy unto the house of Onesiphorus [who just died]; for he oft refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain: But, when he was in Rome, he sought me out very diligently, and found me. The Lord grant unto him that he may find mercy of the Lord in that day: and in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou knowest very well.
Hebrews 2:27-28 "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
Hebrews 12:5-8 "5 And you have forgotten the consolation which speaketh to you, as unto children, saying: My son, neglect not the discipline of the Lord: neither be thou wearied whilst thou art rebuked by him. For whom the Lord loveth he chastiseth: and he scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. Persevere under discipline. God dealeth with you as with his sons. For what son is there whom the father doth not correct? But if you be without chastisement, whereof all are made partakers, then are you illegitimate and not sons."
"Be ye therefore perfect: as your Heavenly Father is perfect."
J.M.J.
plainswolf
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