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Purgatory (questions)

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Christy4Christ

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Hi everyone,


I have met a nice girl named AsburyJuke who is a non-catholic new member of CF. She is super sweet and I sort of stoled her from another questionable forum. Hi Asbury!! This one is for you! :wave:

She was asking me about Purgatory and I really couldn't give her any kind of scripture on it because I don't really know any. I couldn't really explain where the idea came from but I told her that I was sure some of my friends here could help.

Thank you in advance! :D
 

NDIrish

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Ask, and ye shall receive (from scripturecatholic.com):

I. A State After Death of Suffering and Forgiveness

Matt. 5:25,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 - these verses allude to a temporary state of purgation called a "prison." There is no exit until we are perfect, and the last penny is paid.

Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, "be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect." We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a state we call purgatory.

Matt. 12:32 - Jesus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for more than 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will will no longer live with the Master.

Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.

1 Cor. 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, to atone for their sins. These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory.

Phil. 2:10 - every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and "under the earth" which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory.

2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him. But there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.

Heb. 12:14 - without holiness no one will see the Lord. We need final sanctification to attain true holiness before God, and this process occurs during our lives and, if not completed, in the state of purgatory.

Heb. 12:23 - the spirits of just men who died in godliness are "made" perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits were in purgatory.

1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in the "prison." These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.

Rev. 21:4 - God shall wipe away their tears, and there will be no mourning or pain, but only after the coming of the new heaven and the passing away of the current heaven and earth. But there is no morning or pain in heaven, and God will not wipe away their tears in hell. These are the souls experiencing purgatory.

Rev. 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven. Even the propensity to sin is uncleanliness. It is amazing how many Protestants do not want to believe in purgatory. Purgatory exists because of the mercy of God. If there were no purgatory, this would also likely mean no salvation for most people. God is merciful indeed.

Gen. 50:10; Num. 20:29; Deut. 34:8 - here are some examples of ritual prayer and penitent mourning for the dead for specific periods of time. The Jewish understanding of these practices was that the prayers freed the souls from their painful state of purificatioin, and expedited their journey to God.

Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. Prayers for the dead are unnecessary in heaven and unnecessary in hell. These dead are in purgatory.

Zech. 9:11 - God, through the blood of His covenant, will set those free from the waterless pit, a spiritual abode of suffering which the Church calls purgatory.

2 Macc. 12:43-45 - the prayers for the dead help free them from sin and help them to the reward of heaven. Those in heaven have no sin, and those in hell can no longer be freed from sin. They are in purgatory. Luther was particularly troubled with these verses because he rejected the age-old teaching of purgatory. As a result, he removed Maccabees from the canon of the Bible.


II. Purification After Death By Fire


Heb. 12:29 - God is a consuming fire (of love in heaven, of purgation in purgatory, or of suffering and damnation in hell).

1 Cor. 3:10-15 - works are judged after death and tested by fire. Some works are lost, but the person is still saved. Paul is referring to the state of purgation called purgatory. The venial sins (bad works) that were committed are burned up after death, but the person is still brought to salvation. This state after death cannot be heaven (no one with venial sins is present) or hell (there is no forgiveness and salvation).

1 Cor. 3:15 - Paul says though he will be saved, "but only" through fire. The phrase "but only" in the Greek is "houtos" which means "in the same manner." This means that man is both rewarded and saved by fire.

1 Cor. 3:15 - when Paul teaches that those whose work is burned up will suffer loss, the phrase for "suffer loss" in the Greek is "zemiothesetai." The root word is "zemioo" which also refers to punishment. This means that there is an expiation of temporal punishment after our death, which cannot mean either heaven (no need for it) or hell (expiation no longer exists).

1 Cor. 3:13 - when Paul writes about God revealing the quality of each man's work by fire and purifying him, this purification relates to his sins (not just his good works). Protestants, in attempting to disprove the reality of purgatory, argue that Paul was only writing about rewarding good works, and not punishing sins (because punishing and purifying a man from sins would be admitting that there is a purgatory).

1 Cor. 3:17 - but this verse proves that the purgation after death deals with punishing sin. That is, destroying God's temple is a bad work, which is a mortal sin, which leads to death.

1 Cor. 3:14,15,17 - purgatory thus reveals the state of righteousness (v.14), state of venial sin (v.15) and the state of mortal sin (v.17).

1 Peter 1:6-7 - Peter refers to this purgatorial fire to test the fruits of our faith.

Jude 1:23 - the people who are saved are being snatched out of the fire. People are already saved if in heaven, and there is no possibility of salvation if in hell. These people are being led to heaven from purgatory.

Rev. 3:18-19 - Jesus refers to this fire as what refines into gold those He loves if they repent of their sins.

Dan 12:10 - Daniel refers to this refining by saying many shall purify themselves, make themselves white and be refined.

Wis. 3:5-6 - the dead are disciplined and tested by fire to receive their heavenly reward.

Sirach 2:5 - for gold is tested in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of humiliation.

Zech. 13:8-9 - God says 2/3 shall perish, and 1/3 shall be left alive, put into the fire, and refined like silver and tested like gold.

Mal. 3:2-3 - also refers to God's purification of the righteous at their death.
 
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feo

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That Was Well Typed Out NDirish Thanks. The Use of Purgatory isnt Super Crystal Clear For me in The Bible, Though :( a Lot of What you Said... is Very very interprative. why is it, That the thief on The Cross- was to be With Jesus 'today' in Paradise?

Why Was he Treated Differently From The Others, Who Must go Through Purgatory? This to me, Doesnt Seem Like The nature of God...

im Not Trying to Flame or Debate. im Just Curious on your Stance of it :S
 
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AsburyJuke

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Thank you SO much ND for taking time out to post all that info for me!

I have recently asked Jesus into my life after being an Atheist for years because unfortunately the "Christians" which I came across were some of the worst people I knew. Thankfully the Lord worked extra hard and brought me here today. :bow:

When I was converted, I was given a copy of the Living Bible but something always bothered me about faith. If Christians were to love everyone, how could they possibly deal with the fact that if there is a life after death, that everyone who is not a devout Christian, walking past them on the street, working with them etc etc. was to burn eternally in hell even if they had lived a reasonably *good* life. After all, a lot of people devote their lives to working for charity and helping others but aren't devout Christians. Although we do our best, it is impossible to manage to get everyone to do more than pray to God when they are in trouble and admit Jesus died to save them. I read about the Catholic Saint who had visions of Purgatory existing, and asked Christy if that was a belief of the Catholic faith, because I believe that unless someone has actually given thier life to Satan, they deserve a chance for eternal peace after some punishment and forgiveness to God, whereas the Holy can go straight to Heaven. So.. Christy made the post and I just wanted to say thanks to her and you guys for answering my question.

God Bless !! :priest:
 
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Skripper

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kern

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One thing to always point out in cases like this is that Catholics do not believe that the Bible alone constitutes the Word of God -- so whether or not Purgatory is in scripture doesn't really matter. It does happen that some verses of the Bible support Purgatory, but some people get the idea that Catholics also believe "sola scriptura" but just have strange interpretations.

-Chris
 
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raptor13

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feo said:
That Was Well Typed Out NDirish Thanks. The Use of Purgatory isnt Super Crystal Clear For me in The Bible, Though :( a Lot of What you Said... is Very very interprative. why is it, That the thief on The Cross- was to be With Jesus 'today' in Paradise?

Why Was he Treated Differently From The Others, Who Must go Through Purgatory? This to me, Doesnt Seem Like The nature of God...

im Not Trying to Flame or Debate. im Just Curious on your Stance of it :S

This actually backfires on you, because Jesus did NOT go to paradise on the day he died. He was dead for 3 days, right? In John 20:17, even after the Resurrection, Jesus says that "I have not yet ascended to the Father."

So where was he? 1 Peter 3:19 says that he preached to "the spirits in prison". This is not heaven, because spirits in heaven are not in prison, and this is not hell, because preaching is useless to people already condemned to eternal torment." Therefore, there should be some other place where "paradise" was located, where both Jesus and the thief were.
 
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Christy4Christ

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Hi Asbury I'm glad you came here! I love these people they always answer questions so well when I find myself stuttering "well umm because umm I dunno it's umm" LOL

Now I have stuff I can study too and that will help me grow. All because you asked me a question, it's nice how that works , isn't it?
 
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nyj

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Not only is Purgatory a scripturally sound doctrine (which others have attested to), it can be affirmed by simply reason and logic as well.

This article explains why.

http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0204/articles/walls.html

Forgiveness alone does not eliminate unpleasant odors, and lack of condemnation does not clean up soiled clothes.
 
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JeffreyLloyd

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ShannonMcMorland said:
Also in regards to the good thief- I have heard it explained the he was baptised (through desire) and by merits of his baptism he was cleansed of Original sin, any actual sin, and any temporal punishment from any actual sins commited...

In Him
Shannon

Here is what Jimmy Akins (from Catholic Answers) says:


Q: If, as Jesus says, we must be baptized in order to enter the kingdom of God (John 3:5) then how could the thief on the cross (Luke 23:40-43) be saved?

A: Several reasons:

1. The thief on the cross may have been baptized for all we know. A lot of people received baptism at the hands of the apostles (John 3:22-4:3 -- note how this comes right on the heels of the conversation in which Jesus stressed the need for baptism).

2. The Christian age had not yet begun, thus Christian baptism was not yet required.

3. In any event the thief clearly had baptism of desire. He was willing to do whatever it took to align himself with Jesus and be saved; it was simply physical impossibility that prevented him from doing anything while on the cross.

Any one of these reasons, and especially the last two, are sufficient to show how the thief could have been saved.

It is somewhat amazing that people ever throw his up as an objection to Jesus' teaching on the necessity of baptism. The Catholic Church has never considered this a problem since the answers are so obvious. Those anti-Catholics who try to use this to undermine Christ's teachings on baptism reveal by citing this example that they have not thought through the issue sufficiently.
 
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Aaron-Aggie

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nyj said:
Forgiveness alone does not eliminate unpleasant odors, and lack of condemnation does not clean up soiled clothes.

Well put :)
We can wipe are feet on the outside door mat (life) or the inside door mat( purgortoury) But no tracking dirt into God's House
 
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