Purgatory is Jewish and makes sense

Athanasias · Sep 2, 2018

BNR32FAN said:
While I do believe confession is a good thing and I do confess my sins and ask for forgiveness, the Bible says we are saved by faith not confession. To my knowledge the Bible does not say if you don’t confess your sins you won’t be forgiven. Keep in mind when Paul wrote his epistles to the Colossians, the Corinthians, and the Romans he had no idea if they had unconfessed sins or not, but he was certain that their sins were forgiven. He wrote very boldly in regards to this.

Oh I am pretty sure he knew they committed sins. In Corinth for example he makes sure to warn them that even though they have been justified and saved by baptism that they must be careful not to fall into certain mortal sins like drunkenness ,homosexuality or idolatry or they will not see the kingdom of God(1 Cor 6:9-11). he also tells them not to sin against their body and join themselves with prostitues just a few verses later.

In Romans he mentions not only the sin of homosexuality in chapter 1 but later in chapter 11 St. Paul warns the Roman Christians that if they do not continue in Gods kindness they can be "cut off" from God(we call this mortal sin) just like the Jews the natural branches.

In Colossians Paul is aware of the sins they commit and reminds them:

"But now put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and foul talk from your mouth.
[9] Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old nature with its practices "(Col 3:8-9) and tells them

He(Christ Jesus) has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and irreproachable before him,
[23] provided that you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which has been preached to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.

BNR32FAN · Sep 3, 2018

Athanasias said:
Oh I am pretty sure he knew they committed sins. In Corinth for example he makes sure to warn them that even though they have been justified and saved by baptism that they must be careful not to fall into certain mortal sins like drunkenness ,homosexuality or idolatry or they will not see the kingdom of God(1 Cor 6:9-11). he also tells them not to sin against their body and join themselves with prostitues just a few verses later.

In Romans he mentions not only the sin of homosexuality in chapter 1 but later in chapter 11 St. Paul warns the Roman Christians that if they do not continue in Gods kindness they can be "cut off" from God(we call this mortal sin) just like the Jews the natural branches.

In Colossians Paul is aware of the sins they commit and reminds them:

"But now put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and foul talk from your mouth.
[9] Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old nature with its practices "(Col 3:8-9) and tells them

He(Christ Jesus) has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and irreproachable before him,
[23] provided that you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which has been preached to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.

Yes absolutely we must all abide in Christ and our sins will be forgiven. If we abide in Him He will abide in us. This is not to say that we will not stumble from time to time but that we don’t become a slave to sin or make a habit of willfully sinning or turn away from God completely back to our old ways.

Athanasias · Sep 3, 2018

BNR32FAN said:
Yes absolutely we must all abide in Christ and our sins will be forgiven. If we abide in Him He will abide in us. This is not to say that we will not stumble from time to time but that we don’t become a slave to sin or make a habit of willfully sinning or turn away from God completely back to our old ways.

Yes we must abide in Christ. Catholics call this abiding in a state of grace. But yeah just because we are in Christ does not mean we cannot commit mortal sins or cannot fall away as St. Paul and Jesus and St. John show.

BNR32FAN · Sep 3, 2018

Athanasias said:
Yes we must abide in Christ. Catholics call this abiding in a state of grace. But yeah just because we are in Christ does not mean we will cannot commit mortal sins or cannot fall away as St. Paul and Jesus and St. John show.

I agree, I don’t agree with eternal security. At least not the Protestant understanding of it. I believe in eternal security in the sense that the book of life was written before creation and God having foreseen everything has written the names of those who are victorious to the end. The book of life will not be edited. Names will not be added or removed from the book of life. In this sense eternal security is true but this doesn’t mean that a person who does believe and has faith can’t fall from grace and by doing so was never written in the book of life because he did not abide in Christ. A person can be on the path towards salvation and turn away from God and therefore was not written in the BOL. Many Protestants believe that once a person is a believer they can never lose their salvation. They believe if someone turns away from God they never truly believed in the first place. John 15:1-10 contradicts this idea. I insist that all the verses referring to loss of salvation due to lack of repentance and lack of producing fruit are all written specifically for believers because nonbelievers do not qualify for salvation to begin with. None of these verses exclude believers and are implied to everyone. Of course nonbelievers cannot repent and produce fruit without believing and therefore have no chance for salvation. Only believers can repent and produce fruit so these verses can only pertain to believers. Many people confuse good works with producing fruit. Many believe that nonbelievers who do good works are producing fruit. This is actually a deception. Producing fruit is doing good works for God’s glory to be seen by others that the Holy Spirit is working thru us. We are representatives of Christ and our works are atributed to God not to ourselves. That’s why whenever I help someone I’m always sure to say God bless you so they know where the help actually came from. I don’t want the credit I want them to thank God and turn to Him. I want them to realize that God sent me to help them so they will praise His name. Sorry I kind of got off subject a little in my attempt to answer questions before they arise. Lol When you’ve been through so many debates on these topics you become familiar with the inevitable defense people come at you with. I’m sure salvation by works will likely be mentioned but I don’t want to make this post any longer than it already is.

Athanasias · Sep 3, 2018

BNR32FAN said:
I agree, I don’t agree with eternal security. At least not the Protestant understanding of it. I believe in eternal security in the sense that the book of life was written before creation and God having foreseen everything has written the names of those who are victorious to the end. The book of life will not be edited. Names will not be added or removed from the book of life. In this sense eternal security is true but this doesn’t mean that a person who does believe and has faith can’t fall from grace and by doing so was never written in the book of life because he did not abide in Christ. A person can be on the path towards salvation and turn away from God and therefore was not written in the BOL. Many Protestants believe that once a person is a believer they can never lose their salvation. They believe if someone turns away from God they never truly believed in the first place. John 15:1-10 contradicts this idea. I insist that all the verses referring to loss of salvation due to lack of repentance and lack of producing fruit are all written specifically for believers because nonbelievers do not qualify for salvation to begin with. None of these verses exclude believers and are implied to everyone. Of course nonbelievers cannot repent and produce fruit without believing and therefore have no chance for salvation. Only believers can repent and produce fruit so these verses can only pertain to believers. Many people confuse good works with producing fruit. Many believe that nonbelievers who do good works are producing fruit. This is actually a deception. Producing fruit is doing good works for God’s glory to be seen by others that the Holy Spirit is working thru us. We are representatives of Christ and our works are atributed to God not to ourselves. That’s why whenever I help someone I’m always sure to say God bless you so they know where the help actually came from. I don’t want the credit I want them to thank God and turn to Him. I want them to realize that God sent me to help them so they will praise His name. Sorry I kind of got off subject a little in my attempt to answer questions before they arise. Lol When you’ve been through so many debates on these topics you become familiar with the inevitable defense people come at you with. I’m sure salvation by works will likely be mentioned but I don’t want to make this post any longer than it already is.

There is much we agree with each other here. I applaud you for understanding that a saved person can fall. We come very close in much of our understanding on this. In the Catholic view God foreknows all who will be saved and desires to save all and gives sufficient graces for all to be saved, but we have free will and can turn our backs on God and deny Him by mortal sin.

We see that even our name can be in the book of life but we have to remain in it by our free will and endurance till the end or else Christ will take our name out of the book of life(Rev 3:5, Rev 22:19).

BNR32FAN · Sep 3, 2018

Athanasias said:
There is much we agree with each other here. I applaud you for understanding that a saved person can fall. We come very close in much of our understanding on this. In the Catholic view God foreknows all who will be saved and desires to save all and gives sufficient graces for all to be saved, but we have free will and can turn our backs on God and deny Him by mortal sin.

We see that even our name can be in the book of life but we have to remain in it by our free will and endurance till the end or else Christ will take our name out of the book of life(Rev 3:5, Rev 22:19).

Our name can only be written in the book of life if we are victorious to the end. By our free will we are now writing what God foresaw before creation. The choices we make from now until the day we die or until Jesus’ second coming will determine what God foresaw before creation.

Athanasias · Sep 3, 2018

BNR32FAN said:
Our name can only be written in the book of life if we are victorious to the end. By our free will we are now writing what God foresaw before creation. The choices we make from now until the day we die or until Jesus’ second coming will determine what God foresaw before creation.

Yes I agree with that.

thecolorsblend · Sep 14, 2018

JIMINZ said:
Purgatory is a Catholic thing, and makes no sense whatsoever.

It cheapens the Sacrifice made by Jesus, to say He didn't take all our sin, is heresy.

It probably would be but nobody is claiming that.

JIMINZ said:
The verses your referencing 1 Cor 3:10-15 has absolutely nothing at all to do with Purgatory.

With respect, that isn't for you to say. The Church has interpreted that passage to relate to Purgatory. That is essentially what she defines Purgatory to be.

More broadly, belief in Purgatory goes back practically to the beginning of the Church. This is a very old doctrine.

BNR32FAN · Sep 14, 2018

thecolorsblend said:
It probably would be but nobody is claiming that.

With respect, that isn't for you to say. The Church has interpreted that passage to relate to Purgatory. That is essentially what she defines Purgatory to be.

More broadly, belief in Purgatory goes back practically to the beginning of the Church. This is a very old doctrine.

Actually the Catechism is saying exactly that. That Jesus’ sacrifice does not pay for all our sins and purgatory is for us to pay for the remaining sins. Also “The Church” excommunicated Rome almost 300 years before purgatory ever became a doctrine and disagree with the doctrine of purgatory. So according to your last post Rome’s interpretation is not valid.

thecolorsblend · Sep 14, 2018

BNR32FAN said:
Actually the Catechism is saying exactly that. That Jesus’ sacrifice does not pay for all our sins and purgatory is for us to pay for the remaining sins. Also “The Church” excommunicated Rome almost 300 years before purgatory ever became a doctrine and disagree with the doctrine of purgatory. So according to your last post Rome’s interpretation is not valid.

Show me the quote.

Athanasias · Sep 14, 2018

thecolorsblend said:
It probably would be but nobody is claiming that.

With respect, that isn't for you to say. The Church has interpreted that passage to relate to Purgatory. That is essentially what she defines Purgatory to be.

More broadly, belief in Purgatory goes back practically to the beginning of the Church. This is a very old doctrine.

It actually goes even earlier then the beginning of the Church. It goes back to the Jews who predated Christianity as this thread shows.

thecolorsblend · Sep 14, 2018

Athanasias said:
It actually goes even earlier then the beginning of the Church. It goes back to the Jews who predated Christianity as this thread shows.

I get that but the aim of my post was to establish Purgatory's roots in Christian belief. Ancient judaism has no truck with a lot of members here. Understandably so, as well, but there it is.

Athanasias · Sep 14, 2018

thecolorsblend said:
I get that but the aim of my post was to establish Purgatory's roots in Christian belief. Ancient judaism has no truck with a lot of members here. Understandably so, as well, but there it is.

I get that but the thread I started is about the Jewish roots of the doctrine.

Purgatory is Jewish and makes sense

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