Psalm 82

[justified]

This is a fun verse to work with. I have included here an older Hebrew text along with the 1917 JPS translation. I'd like to discuss this verse; pay particular attention to the Hebrew words used. DO NOT rely on the english translation here, nor the NIV (which is usually good on these things).

Psalms Chapter 82

א מִזְמוֹר, לְאָסָף:
אֱלֹהִים, נִצָּב בַּעֲדַת-אֵל; בְּקֶרֶב אֱלֹהִים יִשְׁפֹּט. ​

1 A Psalm of Asaph. {N}
God standeth in the congregation of God; in the midst of the judges He judgeth:

ב עַד-מָתַי תִּשְׁפְּטוּ-עָוֶל; וּפְנֵי רְשָׁעִים, תִּשְׂאוּ-סֶלָה. ​

2 'How long will ye judge unjustly, and respect the persons of the wicked? Selah

ג שִׁפְטוּ-דַל וְיָתוֹם; עָנִי וָרָשׁ הַצְדִּיקוּ. ​

3 Judge the poor and fatherless; do justice to the afflicted and destitute.

ד פַּלְּטוּ-דַל וְאֶבְיוֹן; מִיַּד רְשָׁעִים הַצִּילוּ. ​

4 Rescue the poor and needy; deliver them out of the hand of the wicked.

ה לֹא יָדְעוּ, וְלֹא יָבִינוּ-- בַּחֲשֵׁכָה יִתְהַלָּכוּ;
יִמּוֹטוּ, כָּל-מוֹסְדֵי אָרֶץ. ​

5 They know not, neither do they understand; they go about in darkness; {N}
all the foundations of the earth are moved.

ו אֲנִי-אָמַרְתִּי, אֱלֹהִים אַתֶּם; וּבְנֵי עֶלְיוֹן כֻּלְּכֶם. ​

6 I said: Ye are godlike beings, and all of you sons of the Most High.

ז אָכֵן, כְּאָדָם תְּמוּתוּן; וּכְאַחַד הַשָּׂרִים תִּפֹּלוּ. ​

7 Nevertheless ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.'

ח קוּמָה אֱלֹהִים, שָׁפְטָה הָאָרֶץ: כִּי-אַתָּה תִנְחַל, בְּכָל-הַגּוֹיִם. ​

8 Arise, O God, judge the earth; for Thou shalt possess all nations. {P}

 

[Nazaroo]

A psalm from Asaph:

Elohim(sing.) presiding in the Great Assembly among the Elohim (pl.), He (the 1st Elohim) judges:

"Until when will you keep supporting the unjust,
and upon the faces of the wicked keep showing favour?"
Selah

"Defend us! - weak, fatherless, and poor and oppressed, uphold our rights!
Rescue the weak and needy from the hand of the wicked; Deliver us!"

"They (the Elohim in v1) know know nothing and understand nothing;
in darkness they walk;"

The foundations of all the earth are shaken;

"I said, You (are) Elohim and Sons of the Most High, all of you:
but like Adam you will die, and like other rulers you will fall."

Rise up Elohim, judge the earth (righteously), for you will inherit all the nations.

Or translate to taste (Massoretic Kittel the Nazi critical text)

The Elohim (pl) in this psalm appear to be the Judges (Rulers) of Israel.
Elohim (sing.) appears to be the Lord.

The psalm appears to be structured in a 'sing song' manner,
with the psalm singers (loyal followers of Yahweh) acting as a chorus.
The psalmist provides the narrative.
The Rulers of Israel provide the comedy.

 

[justified]

What's your argument for calling the elohim judges?

Anyone else? Apparently Naz' Hebrew skills are lacking. I'll wait for others to respond before offering my own comment.

 

[Nazaroo]

What's your argument for calling the elohim judges?

It's simple: its the other way round: the judges are called elohim.

Anyone else? Apparently Naz' Hebrew skills are lacking. I'll wait for others to respond before offering my own comment.

"Is there anyone else we can talk to?" (King Arthur trying to sidestep the Frenchman on the wall of the castle in "Monty Python & the Holy Grail")

 

[justified]

It's simple: its the other way round: the judges are called elohim.

?

Spell it out, Nazzy. you know how slow I am.

 

[WAB]

This is a fun verse to work with. I have included here an older Hebrew text along with the 1917 JPS translation. I'd like to discuss this verse; pay particular attention to the Hebrew words used. DO NOT rely on the english translation here, nor the NIV (which is usually good on these things).

Psalms Chapter 82


א מִזְמוֹר, לְאָסָף:

אֱלֹהִים, נִצָּב בַּעֲדַת-אֵל; בְּקֶרֶב אֱלֹהִים יִשְׁפֹּט.​

1 A Psalm of Asaph. {N}
God standeth in the congregation of God; in the midst of the judges He judgeth:

ב עַד-מָתַי תִּשְׁפְּטוּ-עָוֶל; וּפְנֵי רְשָׁעִים, תִּשְׂאוּ-סֶלָה.
2 'How long will ye judge unjustly, and respect the persons of the wicked? Selah

ג שִׁפְטוּ-דַל וְיָתוֹם; עָנִי וָרָשׁ הַצְדִּיקוּ. ​

3 Judge the poor and fatherless; do justice to the afflicted and destitute.

ד פַּלְּטוּ-דַל וְאֶבְיוֹן; מִיַּד רְשָׁעִים הַצִּילוּ. ​

4 Rescue the poor and needy; deliver them out of the hand of the wicked.

ה לֹא יָדְעוּ, וְלֹא יָבִינוּ-- בַּחֲשֵׁכָה יִתְהַלָּכוּ;​

יִמּוֹטוּ, כָּל-מוֹסְדֵי אָרֶץ.​

5 They know not, neither do they understand; they go about in darkness; {N}
all the foundations of the earth are moved.

ו אֲנִי-אָמַרְתִּי, אֱלֹהִים אַתֶּם; וּבְנֵי עֶלְיוֹן כֻּלְּכֶם.
6 I said: Ye are godlike beings, and all of you sons of the Most High.

ז אָכֵן, כְּאָדָם תְּמוּתוּן; וּכְאַחַד הַשָּׂרִים תִּפֹּלוּ. ​

7 Nevertheless ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.'

ח קוּמָה אֱלֹהִים, שָׁפְטָה הָאָרֶץ: כִּי-אַתָּה תִנְחַל, בְּכָל-הַגּוֹיִם. ​

8 Arise, O God, judge the earth; for Thou shalt possess all nations. {P} ​

It would indeed appear that you enjoy tearing the Word of God apart... (at least from your own perspective).....


​

 

[TrevorL]

Howdy justified and others,

Greetings. Psalm 82 is quoted by Christ.
John 10:34-35 (KJV): "34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;"

The usage in the OT of the word "Elohim" is different to our English usage of the word "God" or "gods". To our English minds this usage of the word "gods" in this context is unusual, but the following perhaps helps to take one step towards understanding this usage:
Deuteronomy 1:16-17 (KJV): "16 And I charged your judges at that time, saying, Hear the causes between your brethren, andjudge righteously between every man and his brother, and the stranger that is with him. 17Ye shall not respect persons in judgment; but ye shall hear the small as well as the great; ye shall not be afraid of the face of man; for the judgment is God’s: and the cause that is too hard for you, bring it unto me, and I will hear it."
2 Chronicles 19:5-7 (KJV): "5 And he set judges in the land throughout all the fenced cities of Judah, city by city, 6 And said to the judges, Take heed what ye do: for ye judge not for man, but for the LORD, who is with you in the judgment. 7 Wherefore now let the fear of the LORD be upon you; take heed and do it: for there is no iniquity with the LORD our God, nor respect of persons, nor taking of gifts."

Simply stated, when an Israelite came before the judges, he also came before God because the judges represented God, and the judges had received the word of God to administer.

The following is an example of the word "Elohim" applied to the judges, and the inconsistency of translations does actually help to understand the range of the word:
Exodus 22:8 (KJV): "If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall be brought unto the judges, to see whether he have put his hand unto his neighbour’s goods."
Exodus 22:8 (1901 ASV): "If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall come near unto God, to see whether he have not put his hand unto his neighbor’s goods."
Exodus 22:8 (RSV): "If the thief is not found, the owner of the house shall come near to God, to show whether or not he has put his hand to his neighbor’s goods."

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[justified]

The following is an example of the word "Elohim" applied to the judges, and the inconsistency of translations does actually help to understand the range of the word:

Very good evidence, though I think the wrong conclusion. My comments are still forthcoming when I finish another project here.

 

[Nazaroo]

Yes, rightly or wrongly, the KJV translators understood that 'Elohim' carried the idiomatic meaning 'judges' or at least was applied to them, and so translated it where it appeared appropriate to them.

 

[TrevorL]

Howdy justified, Nazaroo and others,

Greetings. The same problem in translation arises with "Elohim" when the subject is the angels. There is a parallel of why both the angels and the judges have been given the title "Elohim" by God, they both represent God and act on His behalf.
Psalm 8:5 (KJV): "For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour."
Psalm 8:5 (1901 ASV): "For thou hast made him but little lower than God, And crownest him with glory and honor."
Psalm 8:5 (RSV): "Yet thou hast made him little less than God,
and dost crown him with glory and honor."
In each of the above, KJV "the angels’, ASV "God", RSV "God" is "Elohim" and is the same word as "God" in Genesis 1:26,27 and helps to understand the plural in Genesis 1:26.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[FreezBee]

Greetings. The same problem in translation arises with "Elohim" when the subject is the angels. There is a parallel of why both the angels and the judges have been given the title "Elohim" by God, they both represent God and act on His behalf.
Psalm 8:5 (KJV): "For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour."
Psalm 8:5 (1901 ASV): "For thou hast made him but little lower than God, And crownest him with glory and honor."
Psalm 8:5 (RSV): "Yet thou hast made him little less than God,
and dost crown him with glory and honor."
In each of the above, KJV "the angels’, ASV "God", RSV "God" is "Elohim" and is the same word as "God" in Genesis 1:26,27 and helps to understand the plural in Genesis 1:26.

True, "elohim" (pl.) is used to designate beings that operate on behalf of God, whereas "Elohim" (sin.) is used about God himself - assuming there is any difference!

Not that in Psalms 8, God is actually mentioned as YHWH (in v. 1), not as "Elohim"! Any suggestions wherefore?


- FreezBee

 

[TrevorL]

Howdy FreezBee,

Greetings.

True, "elohim" (pl.) is used to designate beings that operate on behalf of God, whereas "Elohim" (sin.) is used about God himself - assuming there is any difference!

Perhaps a large subject to look at many passages and contexts, but I believe that Psalm 8 helps to unlock the usage of a plural noun "Elohim" with a singular verb "created" in Genesis 1:1, representing the One God working through his angels.

Note that in Psalms 8, God is actually mentioned as YHWH (in v. 1), not as "Elohim"! Any suggestions wherefore?

I believe that in a few contexts YHWH can be the name bearing angel speaking or acting on God's behalf. In the context of Psalm 8, I believe it is speaking of God, the Father Himself, and this carries over to the "Thou" of Psalm 8:5. This seems to be supported by the allusion / quotaion / summary of this Psalm in Matthew 11:25. Paul's quotation of Psalm 8:5 in Hebrews 2:7 proves that "Elohim" in this context includes the angels.

Kind regards
Trevor