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proving evolution as just a "theory"

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Justatruthseeker

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Whatever excuse you need. Why dont you read what happened with an actual experiment of domestication of wild canines? Or would and actual study of the process invalidate your beliefs?

Trut Fox Study | Domestication | Dogs

You will find that only the mutation to the gene that affected hair color was involved. But I understand they need to bring evolution into the dog lineage somehow so will say anything. But then I havent been shown I can trust people to tell the truth about evolution when they refuse to admit the truth about finches......... You havent yet explained to me why finches that interbreed are separate species, while spiders are the same species because they interbreed? Without justification it just shows youll say anything to support their lies....
 
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tas8831

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Try school with its evolutionists teachings.....

Not confusing at all - as long as one has not been brainwashed with religion.

All canidae are of the same species/Kind. You may if you wish divide them into subspecies if it helps you keep track of them.

There was no plan to have so many similar Kinds.

So now you speak for the Creator?

There is only one Kind of canidae. The reason they contain such variability built into the genome is surviveability.

Assertion? Check.

Evidence for assertion? BZZZZZZZT

Dismissed.
What disease may decimate one subspecies may not affect them all. What genetic degradation leading to a dead end that affects one may not affect them all.

Assertion? Check.

Evidence for assertion? BZZZZZZZT

Dismissed.

Nice ad hoc nonsense - but you should actually try to address the questions/issues at hand.

I asked:

Yes, all domesticated dogs are of one species.
What about foxes?
Jackals?
Are they their own Kind?​

And you prattle on about diseases and God's lack of a plan.

Those that couldnt even bring themselves to call races subspecies....

All are subspecies (races) of the original African humans.

But that doesn't jive with your version of the bible tale, I'm sure. uh oh!

Can cheetahs interbreed with ocelots?
PUMA/OCELOT HYBRIDS

Dont know, why dont you try it?

I didn't know that ocelots are pumas.

Right - THEY AREN'T.

Nice sleight of hand - dishonest and/or incompetent, but nice nonetheless. You were either hoping I wouldn't see that or, more likely, just didn't know any better.

CHEETAH HYBRIDS

"The two species could only meet in a zoo or menagerie and I have found no reported attempts to breed cheetah/puma hybrids."

AGAIN, I had asked:


"Can cheetahs interbreed with ocelots?"

Ocelots are not Pumas.

It is so cute how you think you scored a GOTCHA! So many such attempts by you backfire, but you keep trying. What is it they say about trying the same thing over and over?

No, they are the same Kind/species, not several.

By your personally preferred definition. There is disagreement about it among biologists. You are picking one side because you think it props up your bible tales, not for any real biological reason.

Where? Not sure that questions count as contradictions.

Um... it would have been nice if you had replied to what had ACTUALLY been written, rather than prattle on with some rehearsed mumbo jumbo that has no bearing at all on what I did actually write.

To be clear:

"Speaking of birds, is "kind" at the level of the Finch? Or are ALL birds of one Kind?

Can parrots breed with emus?

If not, why not?"

So, are ALL BIRDS one 'Kind'? Or is it just Finches that are all one 'Kind'?

Can parrots and Emus interbreed - are they one species? Or not?

And in anticipation of you googling 'parrot hybrids' and declaring victory, please remember what I am actually asking, not what you hope I am asking.
No, my Bible classifies a bat as a flying creature. You chose to put the term bird in the Hebrew word for flying creature in its place.

I merely report what Online Bible sites tell me:


Leviticus 11:13-19New International Version (NIV)

13 “‘These are the birds you are to regard as unclean and not eat because they are unclean: the eagle,[a] the vulture, the black vulture, 14 the red kite, any kind of black kite, 15 any kind of raven, 16 the horned owl, the screech owl, the gull, any kind of hawk, 17 the little owl, the cormorant, the great owl, 18 the white owl, the desert owl, the osprey, 19 the stork, any kind of heron, the hoopoe and the bat.

or

Leviticus 11:13-19King James Version (KJV)

13 And these are they which ye shall have in abomination among the fowls; they shall not be eaten, they are an abomination: the eagle, and the ossifrage, and the ospray,

14 And the vulture, and the kite after his kind;

15 Every raven after his kind;

16 And the owl, and the night hawk, and the cuckow, and the hawk after his kind,

17 And the little owl, and the cormorant, and the great owl,

18 And the swan, and the pelican, and the gier eagle,

19 And the stork, the heron after her kind, and the lapwing, and the bat.
[/URL]



Sorry, I forgot - all creationists on the internet, in addition to being experts in all areas of science, are also bible scholars.

Please forgive my oversight.

But I have a question - if the bible writers meant 'flying creature' - why no mention of flying squirrels? Phalangers? Sugar gliders? Flying insects?

And each was made according to its Kind.

Assertion? Check.

Evidence for assertion? BZZZZZZZT

Dismissed.
Whats cute is your repeated denial of what is right before your eyes.

I do not reject evolution, you do.
Yet the only change in form in the species you have ever observed is when two mate and produce a new form...

And the expert on What Science Is speaks!

Defining speciation

Have you observed a subkind being produced?

Oh - still waiting for an example of a created Kind.

An observational fact. And all you assert is that one can split into two, even if never once observed in the real world.

Never observed an atom splitting, either, but I am pretty sure it happens. Due to the evidence that it does.


No - there is but one format.

If you are implying that variation comes from copying errors - then that is mutation and that is the basis for evolution. Co-opting evolution is something that creationists often do, not understanding that they have done so.


Thanks for another example of how creationists operate.

All canidea are of one kind. All felidae are of one Kind. Surely you can figure out the rest.

So there is a Cheetah kind? After all, hybridization is, according to you, the only way to get a new species (or is it copying errors? you can't seem to make up your mind), so that would only explain how we get a different species - subKind - not what the original is.

Is there an ostrich kind?

Does the Bird Kind contain Archaeopteryx, too?

Are there any living examples of common ancestors or even any fossils of them? How can you tell?

I am not the one declaring that such things must be found - that is YOUR schitick. So thanks for admitting that you cannot produce for creationism what your ilk demands from evolution.

However, if evolution were true, we EXPECT that these things would be difficult since evolution posits life as a continuum.

Whereas, creationism posits living things are discreet 'kinds.'

Here is a phylogenetic tree depicting the phylogeny of many representative groups of mammals.

Such a thing should not be possible if creationism were true, unless all mammals are 1 'kind'.

Agreed, this is what evolutionists are fond of doing.

More projection.
Why should it, they were all created from the same dust. The same protons, neutrons and electrons.

Um, golly - maybe because phylogenetic analysis does not use protons or neutrons?

I have posted several times evidence on the tested methods used to analyze phylogeny, and each time you bail and or misrepresent what I show you.

I suspect that, like many creationists, you don't WANT to understand this stuff.

Allies...

Sort of like you refuse to rethink your position about finches, declaring as above they are many species, even when presented with the DNA evidence they were never reproductively isolated?

It is a funny thing - I have not once brought up finches - YOU did. because you think you've got a winner there, for some reason. That and your repeated ad nauseum 'Asians breed Asians...' nonsense.

The Galapagos finches are a very nice examples of selection.


You cant admit to the truth of the mistake in classification with finches, even with the DNA evidence.

I have not seen you once present or link to ANY DNA evidence, so I have no idea what you are talking about.

Given your obvious lack of even a basic understanding of genetics, I have my doubts that you would even know what DNA evidence means.
As stated in my post above, if they cant or wont admit to what is before their eyes, when it is clear they are lying, how are you going to convince me anything else they say has any truth?

Who is lying?

Creationist Jeff Tomkins? Henry Morris? Duane Gish? They've all been caught in many lies, yet they keep or kept on stating them.

Not sure who you are referring to. Disagreements are not lies, by the way.

There are evangelicals that accept that the earth is very old - are they lying?


What about this creationist with a doctorate:

I hope this doesn't turn into a rant, but it might. You have been warned.

Evolution is not a theory in crisis. It is not teetering on the verge of collapse. It has not failed as a scientific explanation. There is evidence for evolution, gobs and gobs of it. It is not just speculation or a faith choice or an assumption or a religion. It is a productive framework for lots of biological research, and it has amazing explanatory power. There is no conspiracy to hide the truth about the failure of evolution. There has really been no failure of evolution as a scientific theory. It works, and it works well.

I say these things not because I'm crazy or because I've "converted" to evolution. I say these things because they are true. I'm motivated this morning by reading yet another clueless, well-meaning person pompously declaring that evolution is a failure. People who say that are either unacquainted with the inner workings of science or unacquainted with the evidence for evolution. (Technically, they could also be deluded or lying, but that seems rather uncharitable to say. Oops.)​



What do you know that he doesn't?


And there you go.

It is pretty funny, really, that you contradict yourself, even as you accused me of doing so.


Can't see how?

Here you go:

"There was no plan to have so many similar Kinds. There is only one Kind of canidae. The reason they contain such variability built into the genome is surviveability. What disease may decimate one subspecies may not affect them all. What genetic degradation leading to a dead end that affects one may not affect them all....

Where did the variation come from if they were 'created' AS a 'kind'?
From the genome, where that variation already existed. Variation is nothing but what already existed copied into a different format."

but


"African mates with African and produces only African. Only when Asian and African mate is a new race seen in the species."


So.... How did we get all this variation from some mythological "created Kind"?

Hilarious.

Why would I admit to nonsense? "Morph" into a new variation?

Man, you are too much.
 
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tas8831

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Social Marxism and social Fascism is both bought and sponsored by school book Darwinism.

Yeah, sure, because fascism and Socialism did not exist until Darwin wrote a biology book.

Makes perfect right-wing Christian fantasy sense.

Weird though that Hitler and Stalin banned Darwin's book... If it was their Opus from which to draw inspiration...
 
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Skreeper

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Go look up crime rates, divorce rates etc versus population since 1962 when creation was removed the schools and replaced by evolution. Then come back and discuss your findings.....

Looking up random unrelated statistics doesn't prove your point. Maybe the increase in the consumption of bread caused crime rates to go up? Better ban eating bread just in case...

Didn't you learn in school that correlation does not imply causation?
 
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tas8831

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I should have seen the signs - the constant repetition, the self-righteousness, the ignorance (allies... DNA letters... pieces of DNA...) despite the pompous implication of certitude, etc.

But he is a creationist, and creationists... well, this is sort of what they do. Almost all of them.
 
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Jimmy D

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Don't change the subject, we were discussing how mutations in the canine lineage were responsible for change, not fox domestication experiments. How do those experiments challenge this....

................

The "small dog" variant suppresses the activity of the gene, inhibiting growth.
The same sequence of DNA was found in other small breeds such as chihuahuas, toy fox terriers and pomeranians.
It was not there in larger breeds such as Irish wolfhounds, St Bernards and great danes, or in wild members of the dog family including wolves and jackals


How about that, ha? A DNA sequence that is present in "small dog" variants, but not in wolves or other big canines.

(Thanks Dogmahunter).

.............

which invalidates your claims.

"Since over 100 breeds of dogs came about from wolf stock, those original wolf genes contained within them all the genetic code necessary for the creation of all the breeds we see today."

"Whether you want to admit to it or not, the Husky and Mastiff genome contains within them everything needed to create the Chinook. There was no mutation involved, no evolution."
 
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tyke

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Maybe the increase in the consumption of bread caused crime rates to go up?

No, not this. Cime rates went up when people started wearing multi - cloth clothes!! "S obvious.
 
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tas8831

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What do studies show Conservatism leads to?
 
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Yes, I have seen you advocating going to the original Hebrew many times. I'm curious, are you actually fluent in biblical Hebrew? In that case, awesome! Or do you just mean looking up words in Strong's Concordance? Because, that is not quite the same thing ...
 
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tas8831

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Perhaps you should learn Hebrew before you comment on things you dont understand......

So you know Hebrew, do you?


Funny - you don't understand a single thing about genetics, yet you write post after post about the topic.

Double standards much?





LOL!

"Allie"

"DNA letter"



I find it hilarious the lengths that evangelical apologists will go to to defend their favorite ancient tales.

The bible is true and 100% accurate, cover to cover... Well, except when it isn't - then we have to find a way to divert attention, equivocate, make excuses... See? Still 100% accurate!


I suggest all you amazing Hebrew/Aramaic/Greek language experts and bible scholars get together and just re-write the bible the RIGHT way, to get rid of all of this confusion that the actual, you know, bible produces.

But because we cannot trust the versions of the bible available to us to be accurate, why should anyone even read it, much less believe it? Why teach lies?
 
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tas8831

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Agreed - I have read several criticisms of Strong's, indicating that much of his and subsequent work is more akin to apologetics - 'defining' words to help the bible out - than actual translation.
 
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tas8831

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Go look up crime rates, divorce rates etc versus population since 1962 when creation was removed the schools and replaced by evolution. Then come back and discuss your findings.....


Minnesota removed administration led prayer in, I believe it was 1905.

By your Breitbart logic, Minnesota should have the highest crime rates in the USA.
 
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tas8831

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I believe that jimmy d destroyed you and your dishonest antics on this issue already.

I won't be wasting the time to try to explain grown-up science to someone with your track record.

You should start work on your TRUE translation of the bible, so we can avoid being misled by the current version.
 
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tas8831

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No, not this. Cime rates went up when people started wearing multi - cloth clothes!! "S obvious.

Poly-cotton blends ARE an abomination unto the Lord, after all...

Oops - no, that is shrimp:

Leviticus 11:9-12King James Version (KJV)

9 These shall ye eat of all that are in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat.

10 And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you:

11 They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination.

12 Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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You keep repeating this as if it's some sort of insightful observation that you've come up with, but no one would suggest otherwise - of course a dog will give birth to another dog.
Yet understanding dogs only give birth to dogs, you insist I accept some common ancestor of which none exist, gave birth to what became both human and chimpanzee. You know the reality but then propose the exact opposite.


Whoa, steady on there, if you're claiming that the wolf was created with a super - genome containing all possible configurations for future dogs, you need to provide evidence.
All dogs came from the wolf, yes? Common descent, with only breeding.....


You missed the point.

"may reflect a unique recombination event in domestic dogs. However, we find no evidence of recombination "

Then posit despite no evidence that this is the reason.... Typical evolutionary PR hype....


I've never disagreed that what already exists can be written in a new format. That same DNA exists, it is nothing new, it was simply rewritten into a new format. Yet no evidence of this recombination event is observed......



Apparently you dont read too well.

The IGF1 small dog haplotype is derived from Middle Eastern grey wolves

"Our results show that the small dog haplotype is closely related to those in Middle Eastern wolves and is consistent with an ancient origin of the small dog haplotype there. Thus, in concordance with past archeological studies, our molecular analysis is consistent with the early evolution of small size in dogs from the Middle East."

How can the small dog haplotype be closely related to those in Middle Eastern wolves, if thayt halplotype does not exist in some form in those wolves?

As I have repeatedly said, what already exists may be written into a new format or enhanced by the quadrillionth mutation. Nothing here is inconsistent with that statement.

Apparently you dont understand what that haplotype being closely related to the same haplotype in middle eastern wolves means...... Taking it to mean it never existed in Middle Eastern wolves, because that is the concluson the PR people want you to come to. Yet if it never existed, there could be no close relationship to that halpotype in the Middle Eastern wolves. I understand common sense is beyound you, that all you can do is parrot what others tell ypou to believe, but learn to think for yourself. If it didnt alredy exist in some form in Middle Eastern wolves, that halpotype that is dominant in small dogs could not be closely related to the haplotype found in Middle Eastern wolves. In Middle Eastern wolves it may be recessive and not active, but exists already in a closely related form of the gene... Not that I expect an evolutionist to be able to distinguish the difference between mere dominance and recessiveness in genes.... Instead only able to parrot what they are told to say and unable to think for themselves....
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Looking up random unrelated statistics doesn't prove your point. Maybe the increase in the consumption of bread caused crime rates to go up? Better ban eating bread just in case...

Didn't you learn in school that correlation does not imply causation?

Says the person that wants correlation to imply evolution...... Hmm conflicting beliefs, I understand why you all are so confused, you cant be consistent one post to the next.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Read the post two above.

Then explain how a haplotype that doesnt exist in wolves is closely related to those in small dogs if it doesnt exist in those wolves? Ahh, but that was left out of the post you quoted from so your excuse is you lacked sufficient data?

Seems someone isnt doing there research as usual, but just parroting as usual.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Perplexing, isn't it?

I'm still waiting for him to explain what alleles are, how they arise, how many an organism can have, etc.

Lets use the scientific definition.

An allele (/əˈliːl/) is a variant form of a given gene.

So what already exists is simply written into a different format.

Or can we say dominance and resessive?

"In many cases, genotypic interactions between the two alleles at a locus can be described as leading to dominant or recessive,"

So that what was recessive becomes dominant, or dominant recessive, just shows that what already exists in the genome is used.

Thats like evolutionists claiming E coli processing citrus is new, when all that happened was that gene became dominant, as E coli could always process citrus, even if not to the extent of being able to do so solely. Being the gene turned dominant - that already existed - it could then process citrus more efficiently.

The number is currently unknown at each loci. Since the number is unknown, it is unknown if one becomes dominant that already existed.

They just found two, even if it is the most reasearched next to blood types because of diseases.

Identification of two new alleles, IGHV3-23*04 and IGHJ6*04, and the complete sequence of the IGHV3-h pseudogene in the human immunoglobulin locus and their prevalences in Danish Caucasians
 
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bhsmte

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Minnesota removed administration led prayer in, I believe it was 1905.

By your Breitbart logic, Minnesota should have the highest crime rates in the USA.

Not only that, the countries around the world, with the lowest crime rates and highest standards of living, are those with the lowest belief in gods.
 
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