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What about "evolutionists" who are theists? Who believe that all order is ultimately the creation of God?
You can start with the Roman Catholic, Orthodox and Oriental Christians as well as a large percentage of Protestants. We can leave non-Christian theists until later.Well what about them? Can you possibly shed some light and I will give you my opinion. Thanks.
You can start with the Roman Catholic, Orthodox and Oriental Christians as well as a large percentage of Protestants. We can leave non-Christian theists until later.
Great! Then the Universe can be something requiring no form of creation, perhaps it just changed state - therefore it can both be the thing that's eternal AND the thing that shows age - we've just done away with an entire realm of unexplained and unevidenced supposition about an uncreated creator.Understood.. but maybe that's the actual end of the discussion... not a "dead' end .. but an actual end. Stating that something required no form of creation.. appears to be in my view the most logical conclusion.. If you see the universe as "One".. linking everything together then yes.. It would appear that everything has always been here.. but I think our universe shows signs of age.. so that would in my opinion imply that our universe isn't that thing that wasn't subject to creation..
Who lost their job for demonstrating evidence? Also, how many Scientists lost their job when the Universe was found not to be in a steady state after all?Lol.
Perhaps not. Perhaps you would lose your job as a professor, like many have. Just as classic liberalism has been taboo in many colleges since the 1970s, and historical inferences that are in any way pro Western European about any topic, we find that for every epistemic category there are men and women wearing priestly garments proclaiming their right to control "knowledge."
But you received a bunch of "likes" and a "winner" so you must be on to something.
Controversial theories in mathematics are a different story to the sciences. Also, evolution is not controversial. Well, not in scientific circles, that is...Strange. My friends in departments of theoretical mathematics talk about publishing "Contraversial theories" in mathematics can be career limiting, but you are not granting a research field like evolution is controversial?
It doesn't matter what number the molecular evolutionist is, the reason for dismissal could be any number of things, but a well evidenced scientific argument won't be it - see above re: steady state universe.Do you think that when the number one molecular evolutionist is fired that doesn't slow people who are researching from publish findings that disconfirm the theory. Follow Eugenie Scott NSF and ask if any grants will be awarded to someone who doesn't support a NeoDarwinian inference?
....HAHAHAHAhahahaha!Having said that, I have come to understand that the Pundits of Evolution Theory are no different to the Pundits of Flat Earther Theory or other conspiracy theories for that matter.
.............HAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHahahahaha!The Flat Earthers have a conspiracy against NASA and government, whilst the Evolutionist have a conspiracy against the Single Intelligencia.
.....................BAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHahahahahahahahahaha!!!!....<cough>Either way, it highlights to me a cognitive dissonance that is being exhibited on the part of Evolutionists, because they dogmatically hold to a 100% conviction in discounting order from an Intelligence source, when facts to the contrary present a single signature pattern like the Fibonacci pattern, that is evidenced throughout all matter from the finite to the infinite.
None of this post makes any sense to me at all. (Please note the second line of my signature.)Saved by science is your descriptor.
As a general comment not personally directed to you. I like to have a go at interpreting it like....
Saved by chance maybe in case of Evolution Theory?
It may also be saved by Chaos, if that makes sense at all!
....HAHAHAHAhahahaha!
.............HAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHahahahaha!
.....................BAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHahahahahahahahahaha!!!!....<cough>
Yes. Very much so. It made no sense to me as part of this discussion. It did not seem to relate in a coherent way to any part of this discussion. Internally the individual sentences did not appear to hang together. I cannot even come up with a couple of alternate interpretations to place before you and ask "which of these, if any, is correct?" Would you please take another stab at stating what you mean?Is that a sincere reply?
Yes. Very much so. It made no sense to me as part of this discussion. It did not seem to relate in a coherent way to any part of this discussion. Internally the individual sentences did not appear to hang together. I cannot even come up with a couple of alternate interpretations to place before you and ask "which of these, if any, is correct?" Would you please take another stab at stating what you mean?
Why, Yes, Thank you for letting me get that out, I haven't had a good laugh at such an epic leg pulling in quite a while. Heck, for a second there I thought you were serious!Are you alright?
Are you alright friend?
Are you better now, that you let it out?
I mean you well and hope that you realise how futile it is to reject the intellectual property of the single Intelligencia.
Be comforted with my words friend.
English. Now will you show me the courtesy of having a second attempt at explaining what you meant?
Non-Christian Atheistic predominantly push the Evolution Theory. It can be said that all Atheists are Evolutionists.
The Christian and non- Christian theists have a different reason altogether for believing in Theistic Evolution, which is in vast contrast to Atheistic Evolutionists.
That being said, it is unfair to group theistic evolutionists with atheistic evolutionists, because one believes in an intelligent designer, whilst the other denies any intelligence.
The Atheistic Evolution is order out of chaos, as in the Latin motto: ORDO AB CHAO.
The debate of this thread is to prove that ORDO AB CHAO is purely speculative and is unable to resolve an unresolvable contradiction, that is, if chance, with chaos brought about order, then why don't we see a vast multitude of embedded algorithmic patterns in matter, the function and movement of matter and the conversion of matter to a lifeform.
What I have come to learn about Evolutionists, is that their primary and secondary discourses are part of an elementary process of deduction. Just like the Flat Earthers, who solely rely on circumstantial evidence such as a land based observor sees the earth flat, therefore the Earth must be flat. So that bits and pieces of Disjointed DATA are used in the concoctions in order to haphazardly stitch together supporting ideas for their narrative.
With reference to my dialogue with @Kylie and by seeing the bits and pieces of disjointed ideas presented in this thread, has made me realise that Evolutionists are doing exactly what the Flat Earthers are doing. By that I mean, they will point to say how sand particulates are ordered and how chaotic silicate melt is layered and all these disjointed data are presented as evidence to support their narrative.
So what is their narrative?
That there is no intelligent designer/Engineer.
Flat Earthers will not make any links between their fragmented ideas and expect people to believe them at their word. Evolutionists respond by saying there is no embedded algorithmic pattern to establish, because order establishes itself out of chaos, arising from pure chance. This is the chance roulette of Evolutionists and you can quite easily discern that the ideas presented are absent of connecting algorithims and they build a closed loop of non connecting ideas to try and push their narrative that there is no intelligent designer.
As an Engineer I have come to understand that whether you are dealing with the field of mechanics, electromagnetics or electrical circuitry, the basic idea from one algorithim connects to other ideas using working out to establish ideas from ideas and this forms the scientific cohesiveness of the field of engineering.
Evolution theory has failed the test, because there are no related embedded algorithms and no interconnected ideas, rather a cacophony of unrelated and disjointed ideas.
We can't consider Evolution Theory as scientific as much as we can't consider Flat Earth Theory as scientific.
Earlier you posted this: "Saved by science is your descriptor.Engineering equations are worked out from other engineering equations. Scientifically all engineering equations are interconnected through algorithms that use practical and repeatable solutions to the problem. The laws do not change, though the methodology used varies from research to research.
The essential part of knowing where things come from is not by looking at random phenomena, but rather by looking at the connections they have. Like a unique finger print, the unique path taken is evidence of the workings of the intelligent designer who uses these connections across the board. It is this unique signiture that we look at when we discern the single intelligencia.
Fibonacci pattern is the smoking gun which discloses the single intelligent Creator.
No logical argument can be made to say that the Fibonacci pattern is the only algorithmic path that could have been taken to establish order or that the Fibonacci pattern is the most efficient pattern used to arrive at order. Either way, it invalidates the Evolutionists premise of randomness or chaotic path to the order of life itself. In fact contrary to randomness we observe order from order, as opposed to order from chaos.
The basic framework of life was already designed to be perfect to begin with and allowance for fine tuning embedded within the process (plant). That is why from a wolf to a dog the variability is allowed, only within the constraint of the species. Notwithstanding this reasoning, the Fibonacci DNA pattern remains unchanged as the framework for life.
Now it comes down to the reasoning as...
to say that the Fibonacci pattern is the only algorithmic path that could have been taken to establish order or that the Fibonacci pattern is the most efficient pattern used to arrive at order. Either way, it invalidates the Evolutionists premise of randomness or chaotic path to the order of life itself. In fact contrary to randomness we observe order from order, as opposed to Evolutionists order from chaos.
I did not say that you are not thinking, rather your bias prevents you from looking intuitively to intellegence behind complicated order. Your bias is towards order from chaos and you are unwilling to consider that the complicated path towards order, through consistent and interconnected patterns are authored by intellegencia.
What are the probabilities anyway?
To you, it appears 0%. Why?
No, that is not true!
I am saying that your claim negates intellegence and that you never apply the consistent and repeated paths taken towards order as having an intellegence. This one intelligence has left signiture marks everywhere. I am saying that it is not OK for you to ignore intellegence. You need to atleast consider intellegence in your deductive reasoning, otherwise you appear to me as a religious person holding onto dogma.
You see. You sound like a religious person to me!
Apparently the Evolution theory is solely based on the most inefficient paths, before A PATH is found. Now if there is A Path to Evolution, then why is the signiture fibonnici pattern showing up every, from the finite to the infinite.
Are you claiming that the fibonnici pattern is the most efficient path that could be taken?
If so, then that flies in the face of evolution theory, because where is the randomness or the multitude of chaotic Paths taken?
If you cannot find evidence for evolution theory in nature, then it fails to meet evolutionist doctrinal dogma.
You see, in Evolution there would be organisms that reach a goal more efficiently in an environment, yet the same organism in time and space may be superseeded by another, which is more efficient. Those organisms have taken different paths to reach order of efficiency in their time, so show us the evidence of embedded algorithmic paths that are numerous and found qualifiably and quantifiably throughout nature?
Please do not tell me that only one efficient embedded algorithm exists across the board and throughout time and space.
Again, you fail to see that over time the path taken that was efficient then, may not be efficient now.
This means that another intelligence, like the example of the first and second engineer would establish two paths, one more efficient than the other. As a result two signature patterns exist which inform us of a more than one embedded algorithmic path taken towards the solution/order.
So you presented two intelligence agents, the first and second engineer. Why can you not see that only one single embedded algorithmic path is found in our material universe, that is unaffected by time and space and remains consistent?
Does this not highlight to you a single intelligencia, or a single Engineer who has used the same path consistently throughout time and space?
Are you saying that only ONE efficient embedded algorithmic path exists?
That would dicredit the evolution theory.
Or are you saying that there is no random and no chaotic paths taken, because there is only one efficient path that could have been taken?
In this case, evolution theory is done for, because there should not have been millions of millions of misses before a hit.
If it took such a long time for an efficient path to order to be realised, then we should see an infinite array of embedded algirithmic paths taken throughout nature. But why is only one path scientifically observable and measurable?
Because the other inefficient paths taken million of million of years to find in establishing order did NOT exist. Therefore the religion of evolution is busted.
On the contrary!
Yes, there is!
Because it is truth. You know as the saying goes, "can you handle the truth?".
Sometimes truth needs to be delivered with a conviction that may appear to be condescending, but deep down in the heart it is for strengthening and edifying that individual. I guarantee you that you have my utmost respect.
Are you serious! How can you say that?
Evidence is the consistent embedded algorithmic path found in matter and throughout the universe, that is the Fibonacci signiture.
Are you saying that the Fibonacci path, is the only efficient path to order?
Hmmmmm...........I am waiting for a sincere reply and not a dogmatic one.
If you were to consider the same process over time, would you see the exact same path taken to sift the smaller ones amongst themselves and the larger ones amongst themselves.
I hope that you would say that there would be a multiple paths to the same order. No particulate is the same shape or size and if you look at it microscopically you would find different arrangements amongst the smaller ones, everytime you did the test.
What does this mean?
It means that you failed to exactly replicate the first test, resulting in multiple paths, which would suggest different attempt.
Now when we consider the Fibonacci signiture pattern found in DNA, not only is it the same across the board in all sprectrum of life, but it is consistently reproduced every time new life comes into being.
Now if you being a very intelligent person is unable to replicate the attempts of obtaining the exact same path taken for the layering of particulates, then how can you discount an intellegencia that does this exactly to the DNA finite matter everytime and without fail?
Your example further illustrates that there must exist an intelligence exhibiting the same consistent path over and over again.
If our DNA did not have the Fibonacci pattern consistently every time, then we may or may not be walking and breathing prototypes and that no living entity would exhibit the human that has stayed consistent throughout time and space.
Do we have a Creator?
Evolution theory is just a religious dogmatic book that is all!
Which further supports intelligencia as described above.
You would not be able to sort the same small particulates the same way on every attempt without fail. Every attempt will be different and if this was so with DNA, atomic arrangements and chemical molecule ratios, then every attempt would yield a prototype and that no prototypes are the same in matter.
We are talking about Fibonacci pattern found in paths leading to consistently repeated and sustained life.
This is not a sifting through sand grains, but is a configuration and creation of life. You can throw sand in a box all you like, the result is still sand. The Fibonacci pattern is what leads to a consistent and repeated path for the conversion of matter to life and there is a big difference between what I have been discussing and your throwing sand in a box or cereal in a box experiment.
So when ever you attempted this exercise you would yield a different pattern and a different path. If Fibonacci sequence and ratios found in DNA were infinitesimally changed then you would not yield a human being consistently.
This pattern plays a role in the conversion of matter to a lifeform. If you can find over attempts then show us those patterns.
Now in the Christian Bible it says repeatedly the following......
Everything that God (Intellegencia) made was perfect from the beginning.
If a claim exists like this before humanity was technologically converse then now as a technologically converse society, we have proven that that claim to be scientifically true, because life only shows one efficient embedded algorithmic path for the conversion of matter to life forms.
I like your humour!
Everything has a path to order and must be scientifically observed and measured, quantifiably and qualifiably.
Order comes from intelligence friend, everytime and without fail.
Whilst you have demonstrated order with the sand particulates, you failed to understand that the conversion of matter to life is not a random and chance phenomena, otherwise everytime an attempt is made, there would be a change in the embedded signiture pattern and in this regard we see no change. One Fibonacci signitured pattern which is seen from the finite to the infinite
God is Perfect.
God is NOT ordered! God IS Order!
God is NOT loving! God IS Love!
The source is never the action, just like the bulb that transmits light is NOT the action of light itself.
No two intersections are the same. Yet civil engineers go of engineering drawings of the same copy of the intersection. The final product has different paths, depending on the lead civil engineer.
Yet our DNA make-up has the same Engineer! So go figure.
I took time to reply to you. I have only good feedback for you and that is that your heart's conviction will lead you to the truth of the matter, for I have only laid the seed, for you to scrutinise what you have been taught and told.
if you say so. i have not seen any evidence so far.
I would suggest not using the word "theory" to mean hypothesis, or unproven.
Theory in scientific knowledge means proven via experiment.
Further random mutation destroys information not the other way around.
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