Prove something to me...

[ragarth]

I'm an Atheist, I'm gay, I'm a rationalist who believes only in things that can be proven. I ascribe to a social contract form of morality, and believe in a strong separation of church and state. I espouse evolution, abiogenesis, big bang theory (but not really expansion, not without a more thorough mechanism behind it). I believe that the human brain is the seat of the self, of our sentience, sapience and consciousness. I deny the existence of God (fundamental to being an Atheist.)

Now, given all this, there are several on this forum who seem to believe that people like this are agents of evil, that either I'm possessed by a demon, I have a demon whispering in my ear, that I'm just influenced by Satan, or I'm a sheep strayed too far from the flock. To all these people I give you a challenge:

Show me that I'm an agent of evil.

Whether it be that my morals, ethics, and beliefs are founded in Satan or something else, prove it to me. If you can do this, you might win yourself a convert to your brand of Christianity, and wouldn't that look spiffy on your resume?

I'll give you some help in this endeavor, a bit of advice, really. Bible quotes mean nothing to me, without a belief in God or the supernatural, the bible is an interesting collection of fables. Praying for me will also accomplish nothing, but you're welcome to try. You're best bet will be logical arguments that show a clear delineation from my beliefs to Satan. To assist you in this, I give you a statement that summarizes my moral system:

Freedom is the most important goal and should be striven for in all things, so long as such freedom does not hinder the health or freedom of yourself or others in a clear, definable and provable way.

 

[Risen Tree]

No responses yet. Interesting...

 

[revanneosl]

Abiogenesis? Like, spontaneous generation? D00d - I don't think you're an agent of evil - you sound more like my totally-cool athiest husband. But abiogenesis?

Tell me you don't think that crumbs left lying around causes mice to exist!

 

[ragarth]

Abiogenesis? Like, spontaneous generation? D00d - I don't think you're an agent of evil - you sound more like my totally-cool athiest husband. But abiogenesis?

Tell me you don't think that crumbs left lying around causes mice to exist!

Haha! I guess abiogenesis could theoretically cover that, but no, I'm talking about the good stuff. It's well proven that rotting meat doesn't produce maggots, flies do!

The abiogenesis I'm referring to is the idea that self-replicating life such as we have here on earth can be produced from inorganic materials, specifically a culmination of organic molecules producing self-replicating molecules. This wikipedia article covers it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis

Abiogenesis has some problems, it's missing a lot of critical details, but at the moment it's the best answer we have. If other theories like panspermia gain better evidence then I'll shift my view.

 

[The Bible Thumper]

I'm not so sure your case can be applied to the general rule because you're gay (thus, there's that prejudice to Christianity and everything that Christianity stands for from the very start). But there are the multiple instances when we get those Atheists that are such for reasons other than 'fighting back'. These are the people that will claim, "You Christians subscribe to an ancient set of morals and you can stuff them where the sun don't shine!" They will make the immoral moral and turn sin into purity. Injustice becomes justice.

Your situation is different, since there's the high probability that you're an Atheist precisely because--as a gay dude--you were brought up being told by Christians that your sexual orientation is something of an evil, or something to be ashamed of. Thus, your reaction to mainstream Christian thinking is understandable, and your attachment to Atehism is an exceptional case.

Answer me this if you will: What do you think of this?

 

[The Bible Thumper]

Haha! I guess abiogenesis could theoretically cover that, but no, I'm talking about the good stuff. It's well proven that rotting meat doesn't produce maggots, flies do!

The abiogenesis I'm referring to is the idea that self-replicating life such as we have here on earth can be produced from inorganic materials, specifically a culmination of organic molecules producing self-replicating molecules. This wikipedia article covers it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis

Abiogenesis is off-topic. BTW, if life emerged from the simple ingredients of a simple, 3-billion year-old Earth, don't you guys think such simplicity can be hypothesized and replicated in the lab? So far, only an amino acid, from which the team of scientists were granted a Nobel Prize in like the 1950's.
Not very good, if you ask me...

 

[ragarth]

No responses yet. Interesting...

Either I came off as a jerk, or their faith isn't strong enough. Or perhaps I just invited 4,000 people to pray for me, I just wish they'd let me know they were doing it so I could feel like I've got some kind of challenge however deluded I think it is.

 

[Angel4Truth]

Now, given all this, there are several on this forum who seem to believe that people like this are agents of evil, that either I'm possessed by a demon, I have a demon whispering in my ear, that I'm just influenced by Satan, or I'm a sheep strayed too far from the flock. To all these people I give you a challenge:

Show me that I'm an agent of evil.

Whether it be that my morals, ethics, and beliefs are founded in Satan or something else, prove it to me. If you can do this, you might win yourself a convert to your brand of Christianity, and wouldn't that look spiffy on your resume?

I'll give you some help in this endeavor, a bit of advice, really. Bible quotes mean nothing to me, without a belief in God or the supernatural, the bible is an interesting collection of fables. Praying for me will also accomplish nothing, but you're welcome to try. You're best bet will be logical arguments that show a clear delineation from my beliefs to Satan. To assist you in this, I give you a statement that summarizes my moral system:

Freedom is the most important goal and should be striven for in all things, so long as such freedom does not hinder the health or freedom of yourself or others in a clear, definable and provable way.

Since satan is a biblical concept and you do not want biblical evidence then you have already tied the hands of anyone who could respond.

Hint though - if you actually do convert to christianity and actually become a christian no one here could be credited anyway. It would happen by God through Christ with the assistance of the Holy Spirit. So much for your challenge.

 

[TeddyKGB]

Abiogenesis is off-topic. BTW, if life emerged from the simple ingredients of a simple, 3-billion year-old Earth, don't you guys think such simplicity can be hypothesized and replicated in the lab? So far, only an amino acid, from which the team of scientists were granted a Nobel Prize in like the 1950's.
Not very good, if you ask me...

No one is asking you, because you quite obviously did not even read the material at the wikipedia page.

 

[ragarth]

Since satan is a biblical concept and you do not want biblical evidence then you have already tied the hands of anyone who could respond.

Hint though - if you actually do convert to christianity and actually become a christian no one here could be credited anyway. It would happen by God through Christ with the assistance of the Holy Spirit. So much for your challenge.

But if you cannot provide rational proof of Christianity's claim to truth, how can being Christian be rational? If the only proof you can offer is an old book of myths and legends, how does that make Christianity stand out from Islam or Buddhism? How is it that one could believe something written in a book with no basis in the empirical and testable over books that *are* based in the empirical and testable such as peer reviewed scientific journals?

 

[Risen Tree]

Either I came off as a jerk,

Not at all. Rather, it seemed ironic that some people didn't jump at the chance to judge you.

or their faith isn't strong enough. Or perhaps I just invited 4,000 people to pray for me, I just wish they'd let me know they were doing it so I could feel like I've got some kind of challenge however deluded I think it is.

If you build it, will they come?

 

[Angel4Truth]

But if you cannot provide rational proof of Christianity's claim to truth, how can being Christian be rational? If the only proof you can offer is an old book of myths and legends, how does that make Christianity stand out from Islam or Buddhism? How is it that one could believe something written in a book with no basis in the empirical and testable over books that *are* based in the empirical and testable such as peer reviewed scientific journals?

This pretty much answers your own concern. Your mind is made up. Again you contracted your own plea for adressing your concern by eliminating the possibility of answer from the start.

No one could adress your question about satan without using the bible since Satan is a biblical concept. So do you just want to argue with yourself?

 

[The Bible Thumper]

No one is asking you, because you quite obviously did not even read the material at the wikipedia page.

Dude. My knowledge surrounding abiogenesis surpasses a Wikipedia article. Thus, what's the point in reading it?

 

[ragarth]

I'm not so sure your case can be applied to the general rule because you're gay (thus, there's that prejudice to Christianity and everything that Christianity stands for from the very start). But there are the multiple instances when we get those Atheists that are such for reasons other than 'fighting back'. These are the people that will claim, "You Christians subscribe to an ancient set of morals and you can stuff them where the sun don't shine!" They will make the immoral moral and turn sin into purity. Injustice becomes justice.

Your situation is different, since there's the high probability that you're an Atheist precisely because--as a gay dude--you were brought up being told by Christians that your sexual orientation is something of an evil, or something to be ashamed of. Thus, your reaction to mainstream Christian thinking is understandable, and your attachment to Atehism is an exceptional case.

Answer me this if you will: What do you think of this?

I refute your assertion that I'm Atheist because I'm gay. I grew up in a rather loving home, actually. My mother and father were/are both Christian but were rather open minded. My church growing up was the Church of the Brethren, and they're pretty accepting of gays and lesbians. No, I'm afraid if I weren't Atheist I'd be a Christian Gay. No, the reason I'm Atheist is because I cannot reconcile the idea of an omnipotent, omniscient deity with my need for empirical, testable evidence.

To answer your question, I'm happy that church feels the way it does, but unless they are the ones who ripped our rights away in California, they are not the ones who should be apologizing. I believe that the majority of Christians are good, honest people who really care about their fellow man, it's a very vocal minority who use the idea of God to do harm. Unfortunately, the religious moderates and liberals in this country can't find a voice and let those right extremists talk for them, and so they let their reputation get sullied by those who don't care about others.

 

[ragarth]

This pretty much answers your own concern. Your mind is made up. Again you contracted your own plea for adressing your concern by eliminating the possibility of answer from the start.

No one could address your question about satan without using the bible since Satan is a biblical concept. So do you just want to argue with yourself?

I got this idea from reading PC_F and other people's claims that those against them are evil. So I decided it was a challenge, because if I am evil then I wouldn't know it, would I? It's like us trying to figure out the shape of the galaxy, we're in the galaxy so we can't clearly see it's shape, we have to extrapolate it through other means. Therefore I left the proving that I'm evil thing to y'all since y'all are not me and therefore more capable of showing me the sins of my ways.

As for proving Satan without the bible, don't use Satan then, go somewhere else. Build an argument against me using any tactic you wish. I told you my opinion as to what won't work on me to give you a better chance of exposing my demon if there is one.

edit:
Perhaps as a Christian, you have a moral obligation to accept my challenge. I mean, I made this post, maybe deep down I realize the error of my ways, the flickering, dying breath of holy light within me is crying out for help to release it from the shackles of darkness and evil attempting to strangle it out. It would be an abomination not to attempt to save that light, wouldn't it?

 

[TeddyKGB]

Dude. My knowledge surrounding abiogenesis surpasses a Wikipedia article. Thus, what's the point in reading it?

I dunno. How about so you don't say stupid things like, "So far, only an amino acid, from which the team of scientists were granted a Nobel Prize in like the 1950's" in the future?

 

[Nathan Poe]

I'm an Atheist, I'm gay, I'm a rationalist who believes only in things that can be proven. I ascribe to a social contract form of morality, and believe in a strong separation of church and state. I espouse evolution, abiogenesis, big bang theory (but not really expansion, not without a more thorough mechanism behind it). I believe that the human brain is the seat of the self, of our sentience, sapience and consciousness. I deny the existence of God (fundamental to being an Atheist.)

Now, given all this, there are several on this forum who seem to believe that people like this are agents of evil, that either I'm possessed by a demon, I have a demon whispering in my ear, that I'm just influenced by Satan, or I'm a sheep strayed too far from the flock. To all these people I give you a challenge:

Show me that I'm an agent of evil.

Nothing to prove from me -- you sound like one of the more well-adjusted people on this forum.

To assist you in this, I give you a statement that summarizes my moral system:

Freedom is the most important goal and should be striven for in all things, so long as such freedom does not hinder the health or freedom of yourself or others in a clear, definable and provable way.

This may be off-topic, but I have to ask: Freedom for what? Most people think "Freedom" is an end unto itself, but my take on it is, you need to want something else first, and then strive for the freedom to achieve it.

Freedom without a goal is only a step or two removed from moral nihilism.

 

[ragarth]

This may be off-topic, but I have to ask: Freedom for what? Most people think "Freedom" is an end unto itself, but my take on it is, you need to want something else first, and then strive for the freedom to achieve it.

Freedom without a goal is only a step or two removed from moral nihilism.

I believe that the greatest strength any population of humans can have is diversity. Diversity provides more viewpoints, ideas, and methods to do things, but it cannot be legislated. Diversity can only be achieved through a lack of legislation and restriction. Therefore, freedom as a goal enhances diversity and therefore enhances the strength of the population that has it as a goal.

To be more specific, freedom to me is the freedom to engage in your own actions, desires, and beliefs. By placing a restriction on this freedom to limit it's damage to self and others you actually get something a bit similar to what we have right now in the USA. Drug use is curbed roughly within guidelines of what will damage you, murder is illegal, etc.

 

[Angel4Truth]

I got this idea from reading PC_F and other people's claims that those against them are evil. So I decided it was a challenge, because if I am evil then I wouldn't know it, would I? It's like us trying to figure out the shape of the galaxy, we're in the galaxy so we can't clearly see it's shape, we have to extrapolate it through other means. Therefore I left the proving that I'm evil thing to y'all since y'all are not me and therefore more capable of showing me the sins of my ways.

As for proving Satan without the bible, don't use Satan then, go somewhere else. Build an argument against me using any tactic you wish. I told you my opinion as to what won't work on me to give you a better chance of exposing my demon if there is one.

edit:
Perhaps as a Christian, you have a moral obligation to accept my challenge. I mean, I made this post, maybe deep down I realize the error of my ways, the flickering, dying breath of holy light within me is crying out for help to release it from the shackles of darkness and evil attempting to strangle it out. It would be an abomination not to attempt to save that light, wouldn't it?

Where did you get that idea? youve claimed you know what we believe - which means you know the way of salvation then you trash what we believe - then say you dont want biblical argument -which means you have had opportunity to find out the truth and reject it so why would you think anyone is obligated to continue convince you? We cant save you. Do you want to put your trust in me? That will not save you. Putting your trust in Christ is the only thing that will.

 

[ragarth]

Where did you get that idea? youve claimed you know what we believe - which means you know the way of salvation then you trash what we believe - then say you dont want biblical argument -which means you have had opportunity to find out the truth and reject it so why would you think anyone is obligated to continue convince you? We cant save you. Do you want to put your trust in me? That will not save you. Putting your trust in Christ is the only thing that will.

No, it was an appeal to try to get you to provide me with an argument. I'm sorry if you took offense from it, but do note I used the word perhaps. Not once did I presume to know what you believe. Perhaps is a term of ambiguity like 'perhaps I am a marmoset' it does not define certainty like the phrase 'I am a marmoset'.

In any case, I'm sorry you're not willing to try. Good luck elsewhere.