Protoevangelium of James

Uphill Battle · Mar 26, 2012

Standing Up said:
It was at that time c150-200 (except the Carpenter Son or something like that). Perhaps you're thinking of Pseudo-Matthew c600 who revived the PoJ view after the church banished it.

BTW, hang tough and praise God.

meaning, that those who adhere to PV don't neccessarily need extraneous documentation for a teaching to be true, so long as it is part of their holy tradition.

so even if this document itself turned out to be worth less than the virtual ink I used to type this post, it wouldn't change the belief of it in the slightest.

Montalban · Mar 26, 2012

Cyril of Jerusalem refers to Mary's witness as 'on-going' and calls her virgin. He doesn't say "The once virgin Mary"

The Father bears witness from heaven to his Son. The Holy Spirit bears witness, coming down bodily in the form of a dove. The archangel Gabriel bears witness, bringing the good tidings to Mary. The Virgin Mother of God bears witness" (Catechetical Lectures 10:19 [A.D. 350]).

Thekla · Mar 26, 2012

Standing Up said:
So, you are agreeing the birth was not normal, right? If so, like I've been saying, we really have no common ground to continue conversation.

I don't recall any full and specific description of the birth; I can't comment on a "sketched" description that (per what you've described) is an "outside of sight" account.

Would you find it odd that God would be present at the birth of Christ in some visible way in accord with the 'mark' of the presence described elsewhere ?

Montalban · Mar 26, 2012

Uphill Battle said:
meaning, that those who adhere to PV don't neccessarily need extraneous documentation for a teaching to be true, so long as it is part of their holy tradition.

so even if this document itself turned out to be worth less than the virtual ink I used to type this post, it wouldn't change the belief of it in the slightest.

Perhaps it would then be classed like Luther's works who gave a basis for Protestant teaching, but also wrote anti-Semetic tracts (and thus 'errs')

Uphill Battle · Mar 26, 2012

Montalban said:
Perhaps it would then be classed like Luther's works who gave a basis for Protestant teaching, but also wrote anti-Semetic tracts (and thus 'errs')

possibly. My main thrust was to not let anyone think that defeating a document about a subject, is in any way, defeating the subject itself.

Montalban · Mar 26, 2012

Uphill Battle said:
possibly. My main thrust was to not let anyone think that defeating a document about a subject, is in any way, defeating the subject itself.

I agree. It sounds like "poisoning the well" otherwise

Uphill Battle · Mar 26, 2012

Montalban said:
I agree. It sounds like "poisoning the well" otherwise

we agreed.

Thekla · Mar 26, 2012

Uphill Battle said:
we agreed.

Wasn't there some thing about eating pork ?

this may be verboten ...

Uphill Battle · Mar 26, 2012

Thekla said:
Wasn't there some thing about eating pork ?

this may be verboten ...

let them raise the issue here too then. whatever, I'm still going to enjoy my BLT.... hold the L and T.

Fireinfolding · Mar 26, 2012

Pigs do fly

Montalban · Mar 26, 2012

Thekla said:
Wasn't there some thing about eating pork ?

this may be verboten ...

Perhaps more about when pigs fly

Thekla · Mar 26, 2012

Montalban said:
Perhaps more about when pigs fly

Sure that isn't when "pigs fry" ?

Cause this pig has an apple in its mouth ...

Uphill Battle · Mar 26, 2012

Thekla said:
Sure that isn't when "pigs fry" ?

Cause this pig has an apple in its mouth ...

for merely aesthetic purposes, of course.

Montalban · Mar 26, 2012

Thekla said:
Sure that isn't when "pigs fry" ?

Cause this pig has an apple in its mouth ...

Well in this case no, 'cause it's from the Simpsons and Lisa imposed her vergetarianism on the family by having the pig 'escape'before it could be eaten.

The episode:
Lisa the Vegetarian - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Uphill Battle · Mar 26, 2012

Montalban said:
Well in this case no, 'cause it's from the Simpsons and Lisa imposed her vergetarianism on the family by having the pig 'escape'before it could be eaten.

The episode:
Lisa the Vegetarian - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Its still good, its still good!

Standing Up · Mar 26, 2012

Uphill Battle said:
meaning, that those who adhere to PV don't neccessarily need extraneous documentation for a teaching to be true, so long as it is part of their holy tradition.

so even if this document itself turned out to be worth less than the virtual ink I used to type this post, it wouldn't change the belief of it in the slightest.

I understand what you're saying and agree.

The problem, however, is there was in fact another tradition operating at that time. It was the tradition that they were brothers (same mother, different father). This tradition you've probably not heard about is found in Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, Origen, and Cyril of Jerusalem.

It's the one from Mt. and Mk. are these not His brothers? and Paul, James the Lord's brother.

IOW, c175, there are only 2 tradtions:

PoJ--sons of Joseph by a previous marriage.
Scripture/tradition--sons of Mary/Joseph.

So, let's say we do agree PoJ is useless (and besides says nothing about Mary after the birth), what are the choices? There's only one.

Thekla · Mar 26, 2012

Uphill Battle said:
for merely aesthetic purposes, of course.

Well, in that case

we're off the hook (but not, perhaps, the pig).

Montalban · Mar 26, 2012

To keep using Clement of Alexandria without recourse to addressing rebuttal is I feel disingenuous

I've shown Clement use the term 'virgin' in relation to Mary in a manner that doesn't restrict itself to a past tense.

Standing Up · Mar 26, 2012

Montalban said:
Cyril of Jerusalem refers to Mary's witness as 'on-going' and calls her virgin. He doesn't say "The once virgin Mary"

The Father bears witness from heaven to his Son. The Holy Spirit bears witness, coming down bodily in the form of a dove. The archangel Gabriel bears witness, bringing the good tidings to Mary. The Virgin Mother of God bears witness" (Catechetical Lectures 10:19 [A.D. 350]).

Never mind. Conceived by the virgin isn't to say ever-virgin. Nor does he say that she was.

Oops. Just noted you cut out the introductory sentence from Cyril "19. Many, my beloved, are the true testimonies concerning Christ. ..." Nope, nothing there, but the tradition handed down from James the brother of the Lord.

But this thread isn't about the ever-virgin doctrine, so don't bother repling to the cutting issue. You may start one though. Please do not disrail.

Kepha · Mar 26, 2012

Standing Up said:
Cyril does use brother in both senses of the word (Fire pointed this out, but was ignored). 500 brethren (kinfolk). James His OWN brother (brother-same mother, different father).

What was the proper word he used for Brother regarding James?

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