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Actually, I think this admission that Catholics believe that it is the virtue of the actions of men which save people is quite illuminating. Quite illuminating indeed.Nickolai said:I don't think you meant to say that.
The sick man's sins are fogiven because of the Grace of God. You are correct in saying that Christ gave the power to forgive sins to the Apostes, (which we believe passed on to their successors) but it's still the God working through the Priest that does the forgiving ultimately. [/font][/color]
CCWoody said:Actually, I think this admission that Catholics believe that it is the virtue of the actions of men which save people is quite illuminating. Quite illuminating indeed.
hoser said:James 5:14-15 Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; (15) and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.
The verse demonstrates several things the Church has taught for 2,000 years.
First, in order to apply the sacrament, one must call for the elders or priests of the Church. This would require ordained men that constitute the Church.
Secondly, James says [FONT]the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up. This demonstrates that the Church's priests act in the person of Christ ("in persona Christi") in furthering Christ's work of salvation.
Yes, Jesus is our only Savior, but He desires us to participate in His eternal priesthood, and He calls certain men to participate in a very intimate way by effecting salvation (through the ministerial priesthood described here). So the priests, through the power of Christ, save the sick man's soul.
Finally, by virtue of the actions and prayers of the priests, the sick man's sins are forgiven (this is what actually saves the man's soul). These verses demonstrate that priests have the power and authority to forgive sins (which was given to men by Christ; see Matthew 9:8), and in particular to His Apostles, see John 20:22-23.
So, what do these two verses mean to a protestant? No where in protestant theology does it allow for priests to forgive sins or apply the sacrament for the sick.
Nickolai said:Oral teaching is not infallible? Why did the Church use it for the 300+ years before the Canon of scripture existed then? Not to mention the fact that Paul exorts the Thessalonians to "Hold fast to the Traditions passed down whether by word or epistle"? (2 Thess 2:15)
Nickolai said:You can try to stick to scripture, (the scripture which we compiled) but wouldn't it be better to listen to the near 2000 years of patristic Tradition dating back to the Apostles themselves?
So, what are you saying here? That the OP is just the private interpretation of the poster?Forest said:Catholic Catechism:
1441 Only God forgives sins. 39 Since he is the Son of God, Jesus says of himself, "The Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins" and exercises this divine power: "Your sins are forgiven." 40 Further, by virtue of his divine authority he gives this power to men to exercise in his name. 41
To Titus, my true child in a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior. This is why I left you in Crete, so that you might put what remained into order, and appoint elders (πρεσβυτέρους, presbyterous) in every town as I directed you--if anyone is above reproach, the husband of one wife, and his children are believers and not open to the charge of debauchery or insubordination. For an overseer (ἐπίσκοπον, episkopon) as God's steward, must be above reproach. He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain, but hospitable, a lover of good, self-controlled, upright, holy, and disciplined. - Titus 1:4-8 [ESV]
Forest said:Catholic Catechism:
1441 Only God forgives sins. 39 Since he is the Son of God, Jesus says of himself, "The Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins" and exercises this divine power: "Your sins are forgiven." 40 Further, by virtue of his divine authority he gives this power to men to exercise in his name. 41
Nickolai said:Let's take this apart piece by piece.
Nickolai said:However the Phariseeic line was broken when St. Zacharias was killed in the Temple, and his priesthood sold to the highest bidder. Not so with current Apostolic Succession.
Nickolai said:It's not just a spiritual connection it's a physical one as well. Current Orthodox Bishops were physically ordained by Bishops who were physically ordained by Bishops who were physically ordained by Bishops... back to the Apostles themselves,
Nickolai said:Never on the essentials of the faith.
Nickolai said:Oral teaching is not infallible? Why did the Church use it for the 300+ years before the Canon of scripture existed then? Not to mention the fact that Paul exorts the Thessalonians to "Hold fast to the Traditions passed down whether by word or epistle"? (2 Thess 2:15)
Nickolai said:However both taught the exact same thing for nearly 1000 years before the schism.
Nickolai said:You can try to stick to scripture, (the scripture which we compiled) but wouldn't it be better to listen to the near 2000 years of patristic Tradition dating back to the Apostles themselves?
Well, I went to crosswalk.com to settle this for myself. They use the Strong's concordance.Ethan_Fetch said:Presbyteros means "elder", not priest. Hieros means "priest".
Jig said:Pick apart? You barely even scratched this...all your doing is letting your relgious institution make your mind up for you.
Are you saying you missed my point? It still stands.
Note: I got my beliefs from the apostles, too. 'Apostolic' is just a word your religious institute uses to sound authoritative. All Christians get there dogmas and doctrines from scripture which was mostly written by who...the apostles. The main physical claim (the RCC, EO, etc use) to this is Peter (and other questionable relations)...this can't be proven beyond a reasonable doubt.
Heresay mixed with fallable and questionable writtings which could very well could hold extreme bias. I don't see scriptural support for a Pope...wait, neither do you. (I forgot your EO)
hmmm....if you say so. At least you agree there was differences in opinion. Though I do find it funny, the early church fathers writtings are picked at. Their work is only quoted if it agrees with your churchs doctrine, all other work by them that disagrees with current doctrine get sweeped under the rug and never brought up.
15So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.
See the word 'whether'. True tradition is good. It was nessacary when scripture wasn't widely printed or available, obviously, but oral teachings should never differ from scripture. In fact we are to look back at scripture to judge whether or not an oral teaching is true or not.
The word 'whether' here states one thing. You can teach by oral tradition OR by reading scripture. They should both be the same, which is not true for a lot of oral traditions we find today, such as Limbo.
Ever play that game 'telephone'? A bunch of kids sit in a circle and whisper a pharse into the childs ear next to him/her and the same is repeated until it gets to the last child. Guess what...it isn't the same pharse that got started with the game ends with.
When something is told orally it is slowly transformed by the many people who carry it through the years. (Sometimes it can be as little as a few days for something to change) Fallable people add or take away, sometimes without even meaning harm. Sometimes teachings go out of the scriptural backing they started with and become something else...
Why do you think Paul had to continue to write to the churchs even after he visited and taught to them? These people were taught by an apostle as still got it wrong. This is why he worte it down on paper, so it couldn;t be changed.
What does that matter...the same things not being taught now. Someone must be wrong.
No, it wouldn;t be better to hear out oral tradition. We have a choice now to learn from EITHER tradtion or letter. (2 Thess 2:15) I'm going to choose the one that is inspired by God Himself and can't be wrong. It is the obvious better choice here, since oral teachings can be fallable.
Not by the Catholics it isn't, but it is the same thing taught by the Orthodox. (Now a Catholic memeber is gonna come in here and say that they are right and the Orthodox are wrong of course.)
ThirdDay3337 said:Maybe the reason Paul told them to hold fast to traditions passed down is because they didn't have the canon of scripture to tell them what to do. Now we do have the canon of scripture, so why don't we utilize it and read it and follow it, not fallable traditions.
Ever heard of the game telephone? Ever played it? It's hard to play with ten people to say the exact same thing at the end. Try 2000 years.
Brother in Christ,
Luke
Actually, I think your wilful misunderstanding of what he wrote (and your happy dismissing of everything else he said in the OP and in other posts) is even more illuminating, isn't it?CCWoody said:Actually, I think this admission that Catholics believe that it is the virtue of the actions of men which save people is quite illuminating. Quite illuminating indeed.
The day you or any other Protestant can prove that everything Jesus and the Apostles taught was written in the Bible, I'll leave the Church.ThirdDay3337 said:Maybe the reason Paul told them to hold fast to traditions passed down is because they didn't have the canon of scripture to tell them what to do. Now we do have the canon of scripture, so why don't we utilize it and read it and follow it, not fallable traditions.
And if God's the one passing it along, is it going to change? Not likely. And since God IS the one passing it along, your telephone game is a strawman analogy.Ever heard of the game telephone? Ever played it? It's hard to play with ten people to say the exact same thing at the end. Try 2000 years.
He claimed it is the virtue of the actions of men which actually saves sinners. This IS what he said.Borealis said:Actually, I think your wilful misunderstanding of what he wrote (and your happy dismissing of everything else he said in the OP and in other posts) is even more illuminating, isn't it?
hoser said:2 Thessalonians 2:15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.
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