Protestants-biblically prove ONE Mediator

[inCRISTalone]

Can anyone help me with a tough-to-beat defense of ONE Mediator? I know and have practically memorized the passages in Hebrews, but have problems disputing Revelation 5:8 with my RomanCatholic friend. He believes its okay to pray to Mary and use saints as intercessors. I just can't believe RC's think that its okay when the BIBLE specifically says ONE GOD, ONE Mediator! Why do RC's believe dead people can hear them, angels can hear them and Mary, who is obviously dead, can hear them? My heart breaks for them. I wish I could just convince my friends. I know, I know, God has a plan. Thankfully!!!

 

[Dark_Lite]

You are addressing this entirely in the wrong fashion. Catholicism teaches that there is one mediator between God and man, and that mediator is Christ. Here is a search that shows various paragraphs from the Catechism of the Catholic Church: http://ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=mediator&xsubmit=Search&s=SS.

As for the communion of Saints, it is taught that they are alive in Christ. Christ conquered death, did he not? The unity of the Body of Christ does not end with physical death. The Saints, as you said, are intercessors. They are not mediators. Praying to saint actually means you are asking the Saint to pray for you to God.

 

[myhopeisfound]

Can anyone help me with a tough-to-beat defense of ONE Mediator? I know and have practically memorized the passages in Hebrews, but have problems disputing Revelation 5:8 with my RomanCatholic friend. He believes its okay to pray to Mary and use saints as intercessors. I just can't believe RC's think that its okay when the BIBLE specifically says ONE GOD, ONE Mediator! Why do RC's believe dead people can hear them, angels can hear them and Mary, who is obviously dead, can hear them? My heart breaks for them. I wish I could just convince my friends. I know, I know, God has a plan. Thankfully!!!

I have always wondered why people believe angels and saints in heaven can hear them also. God is omniscient, all knowing, not people and angels. any response?

 

[Dark_Lite]

I have always wondered why people believe angels and saints in heaven can hear them also. God is omniscient, all knowing, not people and angels. any response?

The answer to your question is found in the doctrine of theosis. This doctrine has been mostly emphasized in Eastern Christianity, but it does show up in Western spirituality as well. An oft-cited quote from St. Athanasius sums it up: "God became man so that men might become gods." To many Protestants, this sounds borderline, if not outright, heretical.

But we must remember that the idea of theosis is not saying that humans become omniscient powerful beings like God or gods like the gods of the Greek pantheon. It is the transformation of the human into the full glory of our eternal selves. This is an ontological transformation of sorts, although it is not a transformation that puts us on the level of God.

By partaking in the divine nature, we are unified with God and his power. The glorified soul is of an "ascended" nature, but only with the power of God. The Saints have no power of their own. Anything they are granted is by God and through God and exists to point towards God's glory.

 

[Incariol]

Can anyone help me with a tough-to-beat defense of ONE Mediator? I know and have practically memorized the passages in Hebrews, but have problems disputing Revelation 5:8 with my RomanCatholic friend. He believes its okay to pray to Mary and use saints as intercessors. I just can't believe RC's think that its okay when the BIBLE specifically says ONE GOD, ONE Mediator!

The two issues seem unrelated. Mediation and intercession are completely different actions.

Why do RC's believe dead people can hear them, angels can hear them and Mary, who is obviously dead, can hear them?

Mary isn't dead....

My heart breaks for them. I wish I could just convince my friends. I know, I know, God has a plan. Thankfully!!!

Yeah....


"By the Holy Spirit does man come to know the Lord, his Creator, and the Holy Spirit with His grace fills his entire being - his soul, his mind and his body.

The Lord gave the Saints His grace, and they loved Him and clung to Him utterly, for the sweetness of the love of God does not allow of love for the world and its beauty.

And if it be thus here on earth, how much closer will the Saints in heaven be united to the Lord in love! And this love is ineffably sweet and proceeds from the Holy Spirit, and all the heavenly hosts are nourished thereon.

God is love; and the Holy Spirit in the Saints is love. By the Holy Spirit is the Lord made known. By the Holy Spirit is the Lord magnified in heaven. By the Holy Spirit the Saints glorify God, and with the gifts of the Holy Spirit does the Lord give glory to the Saints, and this glory shall have no end.

To many people the Saints seem far removed from us. But the Saints are far only from people who have distanced themselves - they are very close to them that keep Christ's commandments and possess the grace of the Holy Spirit.

In heaven all things live and move in the Holy Spirit. But this same Holy Spirit is on earth, too. The Holy Spirit dwells in our Church; in the sacraments; in the Holy Scriptures; in the souls of the faithful. The Holy Spirit unites all men, and so the Saints are close to us; and when we pray to them they hear our prayers in the Holy Spirit, and our souls feel that they are praying for us.

The Saints live in another world, and there through the Holy Spirit they behold the glory of God and the beauty of the Lord's countenance. But in the same Holy Spirit they see our lives, too, and our deeds. They know our sorrows and hear our ardent prayers. In their lives they learned of the love of God from the Holy Spirit; and he who knows love on earth takes it with him into eternal life in the Kingdom of Heaven, where love grows and becomes perfect. And if love makes one unable to forget a brother here, how much more do the Saints remember and pray for us!

The holy Saints have attained the Kingdom of Heaven, and there they look upon the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ; but by the Holy Spirit they see, too, the sufferings of men on earth. The Lord gave them such great grace that they embrace the whole world with their love. They see and know how we languish in affliction, how our hearts have withered within us, how despondency has fettered our souls; and they never cease to intercede for us with God.

The Saints rejoice when we repent, and grieve when men forsake God and become like brute beasts. They grieve to see people living on earth and not realizing that if they were to love one another, the world would know freedom from sin; and where sin is absent there is joy and gladness from the Holy Spirit, in such wise that on all sides everything looks pleasing, and the soul marvels that all is so well with her, and praises God.

Call with faith upon the Mother of God and the Saints, and pray to them. They hear our prayers and known even our inmost thoughts.

And marvel not at this. Heaven and all the Saints live by the Holy Spirit and in the world there is naught hidden from the Holy Spirit. Once upon a time I did not understand how it was that the holy inhabitants of heaven could see our lives. But when the Mother of God brought my sins home to me I realized that they see us in the Holy Spirit, and know our entire lives.

The Saints hear our prayers and are possessed from God of the strength to help us. The whole Christian race knows this."

St. Silouan the Athonite

 

[myhopeisfound]

The two issues seem unrelated. Mediation and intercession are completely different actions.
In what way?


Mary isn't dead....
Very true, she is alive with Christ as are all who believe in His work for them.


Yeah....


"By the Holy Spirit does man come to know the Lord, his Creator, and the Holy Spirit with His grace fills his entire being - his soul, his mind and his body.

The Lord gave the Saints His grace, and they loved Him and clung to Him utterly, for the sweetness of the love of God does not allow of love for the world and its beauty.

And if it be thus here on earth, how much closer will the Saints in heaven be united to the Lord in love! And this love is ineffably sweet and proceeds from the Holy Spirit, and all the heavenly hosts are nourished thereon.

God is love; and the Holy Spirit in the Saints is love. By the Holy Spirit is the Lord made known. By the Holy Spirit is the Lord magnified in heaven. By the Holy Spirit the Saints glorify God, and with the gifts of the Holy Spirit does the Lord give glory to the Saints, and this glory shall have no end.

To many people the Saints seem far removed from us. But the Saints are far only from people who have distanced themselves - they are very close to them that keep Christ's commandments and possess the grace of the Holy Spirit.

In heaven all things live and move in the Holy Spirit. But this same Holy Spirit is on earth, too. The Holy Spirit dwells in our Church; in the sacraments; in the Holy Scriptures; in the souls of the faithful. The Holy Spirit unites all men, and so the Saints are close to us; and when we pray to them they hear our prayers in the Holy Spirit, and our souls feel that they are praying for us.

The Saints live in another world, and there through the Holy Spirit they behold the glory of God and the beauty of the Lord's countenance. But in the same Holy Spirit they see our lives, too, and our deeds. They know our sorrows and hear our ardent prayers. In their lives they learned of the love of God from the Holy Spirit; and he who knows love on earth takes it with him into eternal life in the Kingdom of Heaven, where love grows and becomes perfect. And if love makes one unable to forget a brother here, how much more do the Saints remember and pray for us!

The holy Saints have attained the Kingdom of Heaven, and there they look upon the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ; but by the Holy Spirit they see, too, the sufferings of men on earth. The Lord gave them such great grace that they embrace the whole world with their love. They see and know how we languish in affliction, how our hearts have withered within us, how despondency has fettered our souls; and they never cease to intercede for us with God.

The Saints rejoice when we repent, and grieve when men forsake God and become like brute beasts. They grieve to see people living on earth and not realizing that if they were to love one another, the world would know freedom from sin; and where sin is absent there is joy and gladness from the Holy Spirit, in such wise that on all sides everything looks pleasing, and the soul marvels that all is so well with her, and praises God.

Call with faith upon the Mother of God and the Saints, and pray to them. They hear our prayers and known even our inmost thoughts.

Mary is not the Mother of God...That would suggest God had a beginning.
Mary is the mother of Jesus Christ(...yes, I know He is the Second person of the Godhead)

And marvel not at this. Heaven and all the Saints live by the Holy Spirit and in the world there is naught hidden from the Holy Spirit. Once upon a time I did not understand how it was that the holy inhabitants of heaven could see our lives. But when the Mother of God brought my sins home to me I realized that they see us in the Holy Spirit, and know our entire lives.

The Saints hear our prayers and are possessed from God of the strength to help us. The whole Christian race knows this."

Could someone give me a verse to explain this thought. I'm a Christian and I don't believe this...

St. Silouan the Athonite

Okay...can you give me Bible verses to back up The veiw of People and Angels in Heaven hearing our prayers...something besides Rev.5:8?

 

[CryptoLutheran]

Okay...can you give me Bible verses to back up The veiw of People and Angels in Heaven hearing our prayers...something besides Rev.5:8?

Try looking at this from a different perspective:

If Christ has defeated death, and we are made new creations in Jesus, and have been united together in Him and with Him then all who are in Christ share fellowship together in and with Him.

That means that whether on earth or in heaven we are all part of the same Body, we are still the Church, we still love and pray for each other because we are grounded and united in the love and fellowship of Christ.

In light of this, it might be worth exploring why the saints who have gone before us wouldn't pray for us who are here on earth, or what prohibits them from hearing us.

Now, for the record, asking the saints to pray for me/us isn't a part of my Christian practice. However I have faith and in faith am convinced that absolutely nothing can separate us from the love of Christ, not death, not anything; and therefore all who have gone before us and run this race are cheering us on--and part of that is with their earnest prayers on our behalf because they and we are one in Christ, united together as one Body, servants of God, disciples of our one and same Lord Jesus.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Yarddog]

Can anyone help me with a tough-to-beat defense of ONE Mediator?

There is One Mediator between God and man. Jesus Christ. Us Catholics teach this.

I know and have practically memorized the passages in Hebrews, but have problems disputing Revelation 5:8 with my RomanCatholic friend.

What does Hebrews say that Jesus mediated?

[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva]8:6 "mediator of a better covenant"[/FONT]

[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva]9:15 "mediator of a new covenant"[/FONT]

[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva] 12:24 "mediator of a new covenant"[/FONT]

He believes its okay to pray to Mary and use saints as intercessors.

Intercessor-1. Entreaty in favor of another, especially a prayer or petition to God in behalf of another.

Do you believe that we are supposed to pray for others? If you do, then you are an intercessor.

I just can't believe RC's think that its okay when the BIBLE specifically says ONE GOD, ONE Mediator!

There is also ONE Church. Can't we pray for each other.

Why do RC's believe dead people can hear them, angels can hear them and Mary, who is obviously dead, can hear them?

Catholics and Orthodox do not pray to the dead, they pray to the living. We believe that those in heaven are alive, I hope that you do as well. We all have that One Spirit which God gave his children. That Holy Spirit binds all of us together. That is the communion of the saints.

My heart breaks for them.

Thank you and mine beats for you. One heart in Christ Jesus.

I wish I could just convince my friends. I know, I know, God has a plan. Thankfully!!!

We are convinced by God's Holy Spirit which has taught the One Church throughout its history. I pray, and intercede, that you will understand that those who are in heaven are alive and pray for us when we pray to God.

The One Mediator has established a new covenant so that we can become children of God. His blood has washed us clean. We become holy temples through receiving the Holy Spirit and God lives within us.

Praise God the Father and the Son.

 

[Incariol]

Okay...can you give me Bible verses to back up The veiw of People and Angels in Heaven hearing our prayers...something besides Rev.5:8?

Why would verses be necessary to back up what is logical? And why would you exclude Revelation 5:8? Oh well, I'm going to cite it anyways.

Revelation 5:8, the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man, Revelation 8:3, Revelation 6:9-11.

 

[ananda]

... problems disputing Revelation 5:8 with my RomanCatholic friend. He believes its okay to pray to Mary and use saints as intercessors. I just can't believe RC's think that its okay when the BIBLE specifically says ONE GOD, ONE Mediator!

Rev 19:10. The Apostle John "fell at [the mighty angel's] feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." (KJV)

The English word "worship" in the verse above is translated from the Greek word "proskyneo" which can also mean "to revere", "to make obeisance", "to express respect", "to make supplication", or "to express homage". The angel obviously rebukes him, saying only Elohim deserves such attention.

In a much more literal translation (YLT), it says "and I fell before his feet, to bow before him, and he saith to me, `See -- not! fellow servant of thee am I, and of thy brethren, those having the testimony of Jesus; bow before God, for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of the prophecy.'"

 

[INTJ-F]

necromancy - talking to dead people - is forbidden by God:

Necromancy | Define Necromancy at Dictionary.com

necromancy

–noun 1. a method of divination through alleged communication with the dead; black art.

2. magic in general, especially that practiced by a witch or sorcerer; sorcery; witchcraft; conjuration.
​

Deuteronomy 18

10There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch. 11Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
​

Communicating with dead people - even asking them to "intercede" for you - is forbidden by God.

 

[Incariol]

necromancy - talking to dead people - is forbidden by God:

Necromancy | Define Necromancy at Dictionary.com

necromancy

–noun 1. a method of divination through alleged communication with the dead; black art.

2. magic in general, especially that practiced by a witch or sorcerer; sorcery; witchcraft; conjuration.
​

Deuteronomy 18

10There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch. 11Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
​

Communicating with dead people - even asking them to "intercede" for you - is forbidden by God.

1. Your own definition describes it as divination. This is not what praying to the saints is.

2. No one is trying to communicate with the dead in any case, so point is moot.

 

[No Swansong]

The answer to your question is found in the doctrine of theosis. This doctrine has been mostly emphasized in Eastern Christianity, but it does show up in Western spirituality as well. An oft-cited quote from St. Athanasius sums it up: "God became man so that men might become gods." To many Protestants, this sounds borderline, if not outright, heretical.

But we must remember that the idea of theosis is not saying that humans become omniscient powerful beings like God or gods like the gods of the Greek pantheon. It is the transformation of the human into the full glory of our eternal selves. This is an ontological transformation of sorts, although it is not a transformation that puts us on the level of God.

By partaking in the divine nature, we are unified with God and his power. The glorified soul is of an "ascended" nature, but only with the power of God. The Saints have no power of their own. Anything they are granted is by God and through God and exists to point towards God's glory.

Well done DarkLite. That is the best concise explanation of Theosis that I have read from a Roman Catholic including professional Theologians.

 

[markedward]

Can anyone help me with a tough-to-beat defense of ONE Mediator?

This verse seems pretty dang clear:

I Timothy 2.5: For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

 

[myhopeisfound]

Why would verses be necessary to back up what is logical? And why would you exclude Revelation 5:8? Oh well, I'm going to cite it anyways.

Revelation 5:8, the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man, Revelation 8:3, Revelation 6:9-11.

Incariol, Why would I back up something with verses?! Instead of using logic? Abortion is logical to some...Cheating is logical to some...Lying is logical to some...etc...never once have I read to pray to anyone but God through Christ. I want verses that specifically tell me to pray to Mary. I would like to see a verse or ten that tells me to ask saints in heaven to pray for me. I pray and ask others to pray for me, not to change God's mind, but to strengthen myself and hopefully it strengthens whoever is praying for me. So if I ask my grandma who passed away 15 years ago to pray for me, is she being strenthened and edified? I would say "no". She is in heaven in her glorified state. I'm assuming she would not need strengthening. I would like specific verses in the Bible that say things like, "Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God." If the Spirit is intercedeing for the saints because they are weak, then they can't be glorified saints in heaven. I just can't find anything in the OT or NT that says to pray to Mary or a saint in heaven, BUT I do find places where Jesus teahces us to pray and never once does He mention to ask saints in heaven to pray and never once does He or any of the Books of the Bible tell me to pray to Mary. I never read of Jesus sitting down with His disciples and asking a person in heaven to help them pray. He always went directly to the Father. There are many prayers in the OT and all are directly addressed to God.

Also, how do you know who to pray/talk to? What if the person you are praying/talking to is in Purgatory, not in his/her perfect/glorified state yet. Is you prayer/talk in vain?

I'm just trying to understand your "logic". My "logic" is to copy how Christ prayed.

 

[billybtennessee]

Personally, I see a vast difference in praying for someone, and then praying to God.

And to pray to one other than God, is not scriptural. Yes, we have a great cloud of witnesses, and no doubt they desire the best for us, but when we pray, it should be to God. We have direct access to God since Jesus Christ died for us, that is why the veil was torn. The way to God now, is through the veil, Jesus Christ, whose flesh was torn for us. We can approach the throne of grace boldly through Jesus Christ, if we are abiding in Him. If we are not in Jesus Christ, nothing, no-one else will do us any good.

 

[LOCO]

Can anyone help me with a tough-to-beat defense of ONE Mediator? I know and have practically memorized the passages in Hebrews, but have problems disputing Revelation 5:8 with my RomanCatholic friend. He believes its okay to pray to Mary and use saints as intercessors. I just can't believe RC's think that its okay when the BIBLE specifically says ONE GOD, ONE Mediator! Why do RC's believe dead people can hear them, angels can hear them and Mary, who is obviously dead, can hear them? My heart breaks for them. I wish I could just convince my friends. I know, I know, God has a plan. Thankfully!!!

Christ is the only Mediator.

Saints, Angels, Prophets and Christians are all intercessors.

Paul says that Christians should intercede: "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:1–4).

Clearly, then, intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others is something "good and pleasing to God," not something infringing on Christ’s role as mediator.

God being God clearly does not need Angels, Prophets or Saints yet there they are helping him. We also intercede by praying for others.

Physically, Saints are dead but spiritually their souls are still alive in Christ.

For Catholics our bodies perish upon death but our souls immediately separate from the body. We receive an immediate personal judgment as to our relationship with Christ. We go either to Heaven immediately or Heaven via Purgatory. Hell is the other immediate and eternal destination.

In the Final Judgment we will be reunited with our bodies and all that we done and failed to do will be revealed to all.

 

[LOCO]

necromancy - talking to dead people - is forbidden by God:
Communicating with dead people - even asking them to "intercede" for you - is forbidden by God.

As we know Elijah and Moses appeared to Jesus and some of the apostles. They were long dead. Elijah and Moses are considered Saints in some Orthodox Churches. They led exemplary holy lives.

Revelation 5:8 "And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb.

Who are these 24 elders, humans in Heaven? The CC and EO teaches that these elders are the Patriarchs of the 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 Apostles.

From the Catholic perspective Saints are not DEAD as they are in the presence of God and God is the God of the living not the dead. Not all those who are dead are called Saints, only those who led an exemplary holy life.

Catholics do not view themselves as being separated from the dead or those in heaven, there is a bridge through constant communication via prayer, the Mass, the Sacraments, divine intervention (miracles), divine messengers (visions and angelic visits) and visits from Jesus etc.

Asking Saints in heaven to pray for us is no different to asking others on earth to pray for us. Catholics pray directly to God too, it is not a 'requirement of faith' to ask the Saints to pray for us, but why wouldn't we, their prayers are more efficacious.

This is about Saints (capital S) in heaven, not saints (small s) on earth. Not all those who are physically dead are called Saints, only those who led a holy life.

The prayers of Saints in heaven' are more effective than those of us on earth as they are already cleansed, sin no more and in the presence of God. Whereas the prayers of 'saints on earth' are tainted by distracted thoughts, selfish desires and unconfessed sins. The more people praying for you the better.


A 'Jesus and me alone together for evermore, no-one else' relationship is unhealthy. If you love someone, you want to know their entire family, dad, mum, extended family, friends etc. you want to develop these relationships as well. This does not in any way minimise our primary relationship with Jesus as the other relationships are secondary and only serve to magnify Our Lord's greatness.


Other Christians are also friends of Jesus and therefore we should get to know them as we are all doing on this forum.

 

[myhopeisfound]

As we know Elijah and Moses appeared to Jesus and some of the apostles. They were long dead. Elijah and Moses are considered Saints in some Orthodox Churches. They led exemplary holy lives.

Moses murdered another man. He led and exemplary holy life? He also had anger issues...

Revelation 5:8 "And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb.

Who are these 24 elders, humans in Heaven? The CC and EO teaches that these elders are the Patriarchs of the 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 Apostles.

From the Catholic perspective Saints are not DEAD as they are in the presence of God and God is the God of the living not the dead. Not all those who are dead are called Saints, only those who led an exemplary holy life.

What is an "exemplary holy life"? By what standards do you rate someones life? What works constitute an exemplary holy life?

Catholics do not view themselves as being separated from the dead or those in heaven, there is a bridge through constant communication via prayer, the Mass, the Sacraments, divine intervention (miracles), divine messengers (visions and angelic visits) and visits from Jesus etc.

Can someone in purgatory hear you/see you here on earth?

Asking Saints in heaven to pray for us is no different to asking others on earth to pray for us. Catholics pray directly to God too, it is not a 'requirement of faith' to ask the Saints to pray for us, but why wouldn't we, their prayers are more efficacious.

Do the Saints in heaven experience the pain of watching us suffer or sin here on earth? How do they hear the prayers that are offered up?

This is about Saints (capital S) in heaven, not saints (small s) on earth. Not all those who are physically dead are called Saints, only those who led a holy life.

Isaiah 64:6 "We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment."

What is a "holy life"?

The prayers of Saints in heaven' are more effective than those of us on earth as they are already cleansed, sin no more and in the presence of God. Whereas the prayers of 'saints on earth' are tainted by distracted thoughts, selfish desires and unconfessed sins. The more people praying for you the better.

But they can still see or hear about sin? Where does it specify that in the Scriptures? Where in the Scriptures does it say that the Saints in heaven have a more effective prayer to offer. Christ tells me to "pray to [my] Father" in Matthew. He says to do this more than once. He never tells me to pray to others in heaven so they can pray to the Father for me.

A 'Jesus and me alone together for evermore, no-one else' relationship is unhealthy.

I never said that was healthy...

If you love someone, you want to know their entire family, dad, mum, extended family, friends etc. you want to develop these relationships as well. This does not in any way minimise our primary relationship with Jesus as the other relationships are secondary and only serve to magnify Our Lord's greatness.

Taking away Christ's position as ONE Mediator is not magnifying His greatness.


Other Christians are also friends of Jesus and therefore we should get to know them as we are all doing on this forum.

This I can agree with.

1 Timothy 2:5

 

[LOCO]

1 Timothy 2:5

St Paul also murdered many Christians when he was Saul of Tarsus, we still call him Saint. St Peter denied knowing Our Lord on 3 occasions. Yes, Moses had anger issues, he was after all, human.

We all have issues, it's part of being human.

It's not works alone, it goes hand in hand with faith as we know faith without works is dead. As for how the Church defines Saints already in heaven. It is quite detailed, please check out the link at the end of the posting.

Some of the things the Church looks at are:

1. Miracles, many Saints raised the dead by the power of Christ. e.g. St Patrick, St Elizabeth of Hungary

2. Martyrs, many Saints laid down their lives for others e.g. St Maximillian Kolbe, a priest who volunteered himself in place of a Jewish father who was being taken away for extermination.

3. Many Saints chose a life of poverty often refusing material attachments or comforts.

4. A Saint is always someone through whom we catch a glimpse of what God is like -- and of what we are called to be. Only God 'makes' Saints, of course. The church merely identifies from time to time a few of these for emulation. The church then tells the story. But the author is the Source of the grace by which saints live. And there we have it: A saint is someone whose story God tells


As an example, I would not rate myself on par with the Apostles or Moses. These guys were professionals, I'm an amateur.

I can aspire to be like them, as young tennis players aspire to be like Roger Federer. I could also aspire to be like Jesus, but I know that I would go literally insane as he is perfect. Therefore, I make do with the Saints as a model.

Purgatory is not a place. The current Pope writes that purgatory may involve "existential" rather than "temporal" duration. It may be someone one <experiences>, but experiences in a moment, rather than something one endures over time.

We pray directly to God also, many also ask Saints to pray for them the same way I would ask a friend to pray for me.

I never said you said it was healthy, I was responding to INTJ-F. I don't believe I even responded to your posting.

You are confusing mediator with intercessor.

Saints intercede by praying for us.
Christians intercede by praying for others.
Angels intercede by bringing messages and battling demons.
Prophets intercede by giving us prophecies and warnings.
Pastors/priests intercede by counselling and preaching on the proper Christian behaviour etc.

They are not needed by God, yet here they are helping him.

How are they taking away from Christs role as the only mediator?

If no Christian were to intercede for others Christianity would cease to exist.

Blessings




http://www.catholic.org/saints/faq.php