• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Protestant errors and inventions (3)

Status
Not open for further replies.

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,127
33,262
✟583,992.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married

I agree with you except for the part about "no one reading and understanding them could hold to the views of a majority of Protestants, specifically concerning predestination 'and other things.'(?)"

Not only is predestination not the belief of a majority of Protestants, but these books provide almost no doctrinal directives, even for the churches that include them in their canon.
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,127
33,262
✟583,992.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
My mistake. I momently thought of American Evangelicals as representative of the majority of Protestants.

I doubt very much if a majority of American Evangelicals are believers in Predestination. They're pretty much believers in Faith as something that is available for the taking. That's why they are so emphatic about distributing Bibles, evangelizing, converting the unchurched, etc. etc..
 
Upvote 0

Shane R

Priest
Site Supporter
Jan 18, 2012
2,474
1,344
Southeast Ohio
✟726,679.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Widowed
American Evangelicals are quasi-Baptist with Methodist leanings. Most of them have very undeveloped beliefs in my experience. The pastors tend to be 3 or 4 point Calvinists.

However, I forgot the ever-growing influence of Pentecostalism and the bastions of non-Reformed Protestantism in my other post.
 
Upvote 0

Isatis

Disciple of Christ
Sep 12, 2011
10,970
1,224
✟28,693.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
The Apocrypha are an interesting study.
Agreed

Most Protestants are utterly illiterate as regards the several books of Apocrypha.
Agreed. At least, that applies to me.

This is because no one reading and understanding them could hold to the views of the majority of Protestants, specifically concerning predestination among other things.
So, tell me. If I read and understand the Apocrypha, predestination becomes an "error"?

Truly, some of the best devotional reading is contained in these texts, especially Sirach and Wisdom. Baruch is deceptively rich liturgically. Tobit is a story of faith being lived, and God's providence towards the faithful.
Can I share with you some concerns outlined by Protestants who studied the Apocrypha?
 
Upvote 0

Isatis

Disciple of Christ
Sep 12, 2011
10,970
1,224
✟28,693.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Share whatever you please. But I was a member of Protestant churches in the past. I have probably seen or heard whatever profound statement you want to share.

Here is one short article giving "ten" reasons why Apocrypha does not belong in the Protestant Bible. To keep it short, I skipped the intro and the footnotes, and clickable words are not shown either.

Rejection by Jesus and the Apostles

1. There are no clear, definite New Testament quotations from the Apocrypha by Jesus or the apostles. While there may be various allusions by the New Testament to the Apocrypha, there are no authoritative statements like "thus says the Lord," "as it is written," or "the Scriptures say." There are references in the New Testament to the pseudepigrapha (literally “false writings”) (Jude 14-15) and even citations from pagan sources (Acts 17:22-34), but none of these are cited as Scripture and are rejected even by Roman Catholics. In contrast, the New Testament writers cite the Old Testament numerous times (Mt. 5; Lk. 24:27; Jn. 10:35) and use phrases such as "thus says the Lord," "as it is written," or "the Scriptures say," indicating their approval of these books as inspired by God.

2. Jesus implicitly rejected the Apocrypha as Scripture by referring to the entire accepted Jewish Canon of Scripture, “From the blood of Abel [Gen. 4:8] to the blood of Zechariah [2 Chron. 24:20], who was killed between the altar and the house of God; yes, I tell you, it shall be charged against this generation (Lk. 11:51; cf. Mt. 23:35).”

Abel was the first martyr in the Old Testament from the book of Genesis, while Zechariah was the last martyr in the book of Chronicles. In the Hebrew Canon, the first book was Genesis and the last book was Chronicles. They contained all of the same books as the standard 39 books accepted by Protestants today, but they were just arranged differently. For example, all of the 12 minor prophets (Hosea through Malachi) were contained in one book. This is why there are only 24 books in the Hebrew Bible today. By Jesus referring to Abel and Zachariah, He was canvassing the entire Canon of the Hebrew Scriptures which included the same 39 books as Protestants accept today. Therefore, Jesus implicitly rejected the Apocrypha as Scripture.

Rejection by the Jewish Community

3. The "oracles of God" were given to the Jews (Rom. 3:2) and they rejected the Old Testament Apocrypha as part of this inspired revelation. Interestingly, Jesus had many disputes with the Jews, but He never disputed with them regarding the extent of the inspired revelation of God.2

4. The Dead Sea scrolls provide no commentary on the Apocrypha, but do provide commentary on some of the Jewish Old Testament books. This probably indicates that the Jewish Essene community did not regard them as highly as the Jewish Old Testament books.

5. Many ancient Jews rejected the Apocrypha as Scripture. Philo never quoted the Apocrypha as Scripture. Josephus explicitly rejected the Apocrypha and listed the Hebrew Canon to be 22 books. 3 In fact, the Jewish Community acknowledged that the prophetic gifts had ceased in Israel before the Apocrypha was written.

Rejection by many in the Catholic Church

6. The Catholic Church has not always accepted the Apocrypha. The Apocrypha was not officially accepted by the Catholic Church at a universal council until 1546 at the Council of Trent. This is over a millennium and a half after the books were written, and was a counter reaction to the Protestant Reformation.4

7. Many church Fathers rejected the Apocrypha as Scripture, and many just used them for devotional purposes. For example, Jerome, the great Biblical scholar and translator of the Latin Vulgate, rejected the Apocrypha as Scripture though, supposedly under pressure, he did make a hurried translation of it. In fact, most of the church fathers in the first four centuries of the Church rejected the Apocrypha as Scripture. Along with Jerome, names include Origen, Cyril of Jerusalem, and Athanasius.

8. The Apocryphal books were placed in Bibles before the Council of Trent and after, but were placed in a separate section because they were not of equal authority. The Apocrypha rightfully has some devotional purposes, but it is not inspired.

False Teachings

9. The Apocrypha contains a number of false teachings (see: Errors in the Apocrypha). (To check the following references, see http://www.newadvent.org/bible.)

The command to use magic (Tobit 6:5-7).
Forgiveness of sins by almsgiving (Tobit 4:11; 12:9).
Offering of money for the sins of the dead (2 Maccabees 12:43-45).


Not Prophetic

10. The Apocryphal books do not share many of the chararacteristics of the Canonical books: they are not prophetic, there is no supernatural confirmation of any of the apocryphal writers works, there is no predictive prophecy, there is no new Messianic truth revealed, they are not cited as authoritative by any prophetic book written after them, and they even acknowledge that there were no prophets in Israel at their time (cf. 1 Macc. 9:27; 14:41).

Reasons why the Apocrypha does not belong in the Bible|Why the Apocrypha should not be part of the Canon | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry
 
Upvote 0

Isatis

Disciple of Christ
Sep 12, 2011
10,970
1,224
✟28,693.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
To follow up on previous article, here is another important one as it outlines errors in the Apocrypha. As I said earlier, I have not read the Apocrypha and can only share concerns outlined by those who read them.

Here again, skipped intro to keep it short.


Problems in the Apocrypha

When we look into the apocrypha itself, we find numerous problems. For example, we see it advocating magic where the smoke of a fish heart on a fire drives away devils.

Condones the use of magic

Tobit 6:5-7, "Then the angel said to him: Take out the entrails of this fish, and lay up his heart, and his gall, and his liver for thee: for these are necessary for useful medicines. 6 And when he had done so, he roasted the flesh thereof, and they took it with them in the way: the rest they salted as much as might serve them, till they came to Rages the city of the Medes. 7 Then Tobias asked the angel, and said to him: I beseech thee, brother Azarias, tell me what remedies are these things good for, which thou hast bid me keep of the fish? 8 And the angel, answering, said to him: If thou put a little piece of its heart upon coals, the smoke thereof driveth away all kind of devils, either from man or from woman, so that they come no more to them."
Is it true that the smoke from a fish's heart, when burned, drives away evil spirits? Of course not. Such a superstitious teaching has no place in the word of God.


Teaches that forgiveness of sins is by human effort.

Salvation by works:
Tobit 4:11, "For alms deliver from all sin, and from death, and will not suffer the soul to go into darkness."
Tobit 12:9, "For alms delivereth from death, and the same is that which purgeth away sins, and maketh to find mercy and life everlasting."
We know from Scripture that alms (money or food, given to the poor or needy as charity) does not purge our sins. The blood of Christ is what cleanses us, not money or food given to poor people. "but if we walk in the light as He Himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin," (1 John 1:7).

Money as an offering for the sins of the dead:
2 Maccabbees 12:43, "And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection."
Can anyone truly accept that money isn't offering for the sins of dead people? Such a superstitious and unbiblical concept has no place in Scripture.


Historical Errors

Wrong historical facts:
Judith 1:5, "Now in the twelfth year of his reign, Nabuchodonosor, king of the Assyrians, who reigned in Ninive the great city, fought against Arphaxad and overcame him."
Baruch 6:2, "And when you are come into Babylon, you shall be there many years, and for a long time, even to seven generations: and after that I will bring you away from thence with peace."
The book of Judith incorrectly says that Nebuchadnezzar was the king of the Assyrians when he was the king of the Babylonians.1

Baruch 6:2 says the Jews would serve in Babylon for seven generations where Jer. 25:11 says it was for 70 years. "And this whole land shall be a desolation and a horror, and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years."


Conclusion

Obviously the apocrypha has serious problems. From magic, to salvation by works, to money as an offering for the sins of the dead, and blatant incorrect historical facts, it is full of false and unbiblical teachings. It isn't inspired of God. Likewise, neither is the Roman Catholic Church, which has stated the Apocrypha is inspired. This shows the Roman Catholic Church is not the means by which God is communicating his truth to his people, that the Magisterium has erred greatly, and that it is infested with man's false tradition, rather than God's absolute truth.

Errors in the Apocrypha | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry
 
Upvote 0

MoreCoffee

Repentance works.
Jan 8, 2011
29,860
2,841
Near the flying spaghetti monster
✟65,348.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
...
So, tell me. If I read and understand the Apocrypha, predestination becomes an "error"?
...

If you read the seven canonical books and parts of Daniel and Esther that are missing from a 66 book bible then you'll have a chance to decide if John Calvin's kind of predestination is an error. Many believe that John Calvin's kind of predestination is an error without having read the books mentioned above.
 
Upvote 0

MoreCoffee

Repentance works.
Jan 8, 2011
29,860
2,841
Near the flying spaghetti monster
✟65,348.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private

Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Ruth, Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Job, Ecclesiastes, Song of Songs, and Proverbs,1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, Titus, Philemon, 1 Peter, and 1 John are not prophetic so are they non-canonical?
 
Upvote 0

Shane R

Priest
Site Supporter
Jan 18, 2012
2,474
1,344
Southeast Ohio
✟726,679.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Widowed
There was another Zechariah who was slain in the fashion mentioned, the father of John the Baptist:

But at the hour of the salutation the priests went away, and Zacharias did not come forth to meet them with a blessing, according to his custom. And the priests stood waiting for Zacharias to salute him at the prayer, and to glorify the Most High. And he still delaying, they were all afraid. But one of them ventured to go in, and he saw clotted blood beside the altar; and he heard a voice saying: Zacharias has been murdered, and his blood shall not be wiped up until his avenger come. And hearing this saying, he was afraid, and went out and told it to the priests. And they ventured in, and saw what had happened; and the fretwork of the temple made a wailing noise, and they rent their clothes from the top even to the bottom. And they found not his body, but they found his blood turned into stone. And they were afraid, and went out and reported to the people that Zacharias had been murdered. And all the tribes of the people heard, and mourned, and lamented for him three days and three nights. And after the three days, the priests consulted as to whom they should put in his place; and the lot fell upon Simeon. For it was he who had been warned by the Holy Spirit that he should not see death until he should see the Christ in the flesh.

The truth is the apocrypha were well known by the early church. Only when the Masoretes rejected them from the Hebrew canon several centuries into church history were they brought into question. The Masoretes had their own nationalistic, anti-Greek agenda. Thus Orthodoxy uses the Septuagint still, preferring the version of church tradition to the critical Masoretic text.
 
Upvote 0

Rev Randy

Sometimes I pretend to be normal
Aug 14, 2012
7,410
643
Florida,USA
✟32,653.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married

I note that scripture does not say scripture is the lone authority. Profitable? yes. Sola? Not even close.
 
Upvote 0
B

bbbbbbb

Guest

Nicely written, although I would also include the majority of Catholics as being ignorant of the deuterocanonical books (aka Apocrypha). In 2011 I decided to read it online and went to the website Catholic.org. In their listing of available Bible books to read online there were only the 66 of the Bible and none of the deuterocanonical books. I called them to ask about the problem. The person I spoke with had never heard of these books and I had to explain exactly what they were. Subsequently they were posted and now can be downloaded.

The bottom line with these books is that they do not teach a single thing that cannot be found in the other 66 books of the Bible.
 
Upvote 0

Rev Randy

Sometimes I pretend to be normal
Aug 14, 2012
7,410
643
Florida,USA
✟32,653.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married

I'd take that a bit further saying a great number of people professing Christ have not even read the 66 books they hold as Cannon. It's a shame.
I take it that you have read the Deuterocanonical Books? If so, I find your last statement odd or at least unconvincing.
We also have three synoptic Gospels and one topical Gospel. All tell the same story. Now I bet you can learn something different from each. Anytime the penman changed so does the point of view. From that alone one can grasp new things.
The Deuterocanonical Books are quite easily found online and free to be read.
I'm not sure what catholic. orgs problem was but it's not a common problem with Catholic websites. I won't challenge the "most Catholics" statement any more than I'd challenge a statement like most baptist have never read the entire Protestant. In either case most have heard it.
 
Upvote 0
T

Thekla

Guest


I disagree with a number of the interpretations given here (for example, illness which is a post-Fall phenomenon is addressed by 'medicinal use' of what was then available - why would burning fish not qualify ?), and if quoting a book of the Bible is required for attesting it's canonical inclusion, most of the books of the OT would need to be tossed "out". Re: almsgiving, see Proverbs. To note also, almsgiving done with an appropriate disposition affects the spiritual state of the giver; the mistreatment of the "poor" is also an indication of a (degraded) spiritual state.
 
Upvote 0

MarkRohfrietsch

Unapologetic Apologist
Site Supporter
Dec 8, 2007
30,963
5,792
✟1,000,734.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married

Also the accusation of "condoning magic"; in Exodus we have God commanding the making of a bronze serpent to use to free His people from the real serpents; we have the washing and regeneration of Baptism using water; we have the Eucharist using only bread and wine; Christ made mud and put on the blind man's eyes to heal him, etc. etc.

If the apocryphal books condone magic, they the rest of God's Holy Word does also.
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,127
33,262
✟583,992.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Upvote 0

Gregory Thompson

Change is inevitable, feel free to spare some.
Site Supporter
Dec 20, 2009
30,168
8,504
Canada
✟880,922.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Married

Yeah i know .. right? like Elisha sprinkling salt in the well and somehow it got all cleansed .
 
Upvote 0

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Site Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,550
28,531
74
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,300.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian


Did anyone notice what the greek word for "pharisee" denotes in the NT?

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary
JESUS VS THE PHARISEES

Luke 16:14 Now the Pharisees/farisaioi <5330>, who were lovers of money, also heard all these things and they derided Him.
Romans 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh/faraw <5328> "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the land."

Revelation 9:21 And not they repent/reform out of their murders, nor out from their sorceries/farmakeiwn <5331>.........

5330. Pharisaios of Hebrew origin (c a separatist, i.e. exclusively religious; a Pharisean, i.e. Jewish sectary:--Pharisee.
5328. Pharao of foreign origin (6547); Pharao (i.e. Pharoh), an Egyptian king:--Pharaoh.
2447. ios perhaps from eimi (to go) or hiemi (to send); rust (as if emitted by metals); also venom (as emitted by serpents):--poison, rust. AV - poison 2, rust 1; 3

5331. pharmakeia from 5332; medication ("pharmacy"), i.e. (by extension) magic (literally or figuratively):--sorcery, witchcraft






.


.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Reactions: Standing Up
Upvote 0

George95

CF Tech Master
Christian Forums Staff
Administrator
Community Manager
Site Supporter
Oct 31, 2012
18,994
2,031
30
✟1,561,780.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single

Forgive me if I sound ignorant of some of the discussion, but I'm a bit confused. Can someone give me an example of a Protestant Error?
Also lol @ LLOJ, I'd like to purchase one.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.