Protestant-Catholic crossroad

[Jeronimomoulia]

Hail everyone.

My relation with God is good, and due to that i´m opened to the thruth, but I cant realize what is the correct church, in spite of i´m thinking much of this.

I´ve problems with the protestant church because they say that the Bible is the only thruth, but: what books make up the canon, what books are holy? Macabeos, Iudit, Tobías are holy in one half of the christianity, but in the other hanf they are unholy: we need an auctority who decides this subject, and it is not the Bible, because the letters of the apostles mention books are considerated by all apocrifes: by example the profecy of Enoc, and books considerated canonical by all are not mentioned in the new testament: by example Job or Esther. Christ says to Peter "when you get strengthened, you confirm your brothers": we need one man who have the authority to resolve the subject, and this man only can be the Peter succesor.

In the other hand I´ve problems with the Catholicism due to the worship to the saints; especially when it acts through images, statues or dolls; the second commandement forbid the worship to criature; I know that the saints are members of Christ, so pray to saints is pray to Christ in his body, but it involves an artificial intention: when people have devotion with a saint at the end develops a partial idolatrie, believes that if he dont pray to the saint its sanity will be damned: thats my experience.
Due to this, in catholics nations, like Spain, there´s a legacy of idolatrie that impregnate sport, nacionalism and policies. The catholic worship a lot of times are made up of "avemarías" of the rosary, not many times the relation with God is face to face.

So I see the Catholic Church is solid according to the idea of Peter, but its fruits are rotten; the protestant Church contradicts itself, arguing that the Bible is the only thruth, but having not the authority to set up the canon of the holy books.

Thats my crossroad, what do u think?

 

[laconicstudent]

I´ve problems with the protestant church because they say that the Bible is the only thruth, but: what books make up the canon, what books are holy? Macabeos, Iudit, Tobías are holy in one half of the christianity,

Actually, more then half. More like 2/3 to 3/4

 

[E.C.]

There's always Orthodoxy.

 

[Znex]

The reason that the Apocrypha isn't accepted in the minority of mainstream Christianity is mainly because it does not fit in with the rest of the Bible. eg. Maccabees is mostly an historical account, but it does not necessarily follow the rest of Scripture, even teaching some things that can't be found in the rest of the Bible. Plainly speaking, the Apocrypha isn't very reliable; if Protestantism were to include it as canon, it would be like saying Batman existed in the Marvel universe (he doesn't, he exists in the DC universe however).

Job and Esther are included because they do fit in, not necessarily because they are referenced by later sources, which by what you suggest, they do not.

 

[Jeronimomoulia]

I can see Maccabees as the colophon of the New testament; due to the accomplishement of the prophecies of Daniel, who relate the perverse action of Antioc Epiphanes against the chosen people, beeing typo of the last Antichrist; he become the antichrist of the old testament: he forbidded the practise of the ancient law, forced the sacred books to be fired, and set up heathen uses, like gymnasiums, and put in the temple the "abomination predicted by Daniel prophet".

By the other hand the apostle Paul use the "septuagint", the greek compilation of books that includes maccabees and the other deuterocanonical books; by example, saint Paul quote the psalm in this way "lower than angels Thy created"; this is the septuagint, buy the hebrew version says "lower than God Thy created".

As well, the book of the wisdom speak clearly about the Trinity, especially in this chapter: "The wisdom of God is a gleam of the eternal light, a mirror of his goodness".

 

[MrPolo]

Catholics do not give the "worship" to saints that should only go to God. Catholics may ask another member of the body of Christ to intercede for them just like Paul did (example Rm 15:30). There may be some people idolizing other creatures, but that is not Catholic teaching! Please read over this article on praying to saints. I hope it will help. There is even a chart to help understand the concept.

 

[MrPolo]

The reason that the Apocrypha isn't accepted in the minority of mainstream Christianity is mainly because it does not fit in with the rest of the Bible. eg. Maccabees is mostly an historical account, but it does not necessarily follow the rest of Scripture, even teaching some things that can't be found in the rest of the Bible. Plainly speaking, the Apocrypha isn't very reliable; if Protestantism were to include it as canon, it would be like saying Batman existed in the Marvel universe (he doesn't, he exists in the DC universe however).

Marvel vs. DC aside (because Marvel would win ), it is arbitrary to disqualify Maccabees because it's mostly historical, because so is Numbers, Chronicles, etc... And it's arbitrary to disqualify them because there are teachings there that aren't in other books, because if that were the rule, we would throw out John who is the only one to teach the "unless you eat my flesh" discourse, or Luke who is the only one to refer to Mary as kecharitomene, etc... The actual reason Protestants do not have the Deuterocanon in their Bibles is at the heart of what Jeronimomoulia said---Protestants have appointed themselves the authority to decide. This mostly took place at the Reformation (sometimes called the Protestant Revolt).

I encourage you to see if you can "tell" what is Scripture and what isn't in the exciting "Is That Scripture?" Quiz.

 

[Jeronimomoulia]

MrPolo, firstly about the Ecclesiastes that is quoted in the link you´ve provided; the idea of death in the old testament is not a contradiction of what new testament proves; Ecclesiastes refers the death of the body, what is expecting the resurrection; whereas the new testament refers the inmortality of the soul.

About the "worship" to saints, it is not only intercession: if i pray to Virgin Mary I admit that she can be hearing me at the same time she is hearing other prayers in other places of the world: that is a contradiction of what limitation of criature.

The fact is that saints are member of Christ, so touching saints is touching Christ in his members; maybe Mary is currently occuped in othet matters, buy Christ always can hear me.

 

[MrPolo]

if i pray to Virgin Mary I admit that she can be hearing me at the same time she is hearing other prayers in other places of the world: that is a contradiction of what limitation of criature.

On what basis do you assert that someone in heaven cannot hear petitions from around the world at the same time?

 

[Znex]

On what basis do you assert that someone in heaven cannot hear petitions from around the world at the same time?

On what basis do you assert that someone in heaven can hear petitions from around the world at the same time? The only one we know who is outside of time is God, who is eternal, who is without beginning and without end. Are you suggesting that Mary who was mortal and temporal the last time we heard about her has been made into some kind of god?

 

[laconicstudent]

On what basis do you assert that someone in heaven can hear petitions from around the world at the same time? The only one we know who is outside of time is God, who is eternal, who is without beginning and without end. Are you suggesting that Mary who was mortal and temporal the last time we heard about her has been made into some kind of god?

This seems a reasonable explanation.

By the Holy Spirit does man come to know the Lord, his Creator, and the Holy Spirit with His grace fills his entire being - his soul, his mind and his body.

The Lord gave the Saints His grace, and they loved Him and clung to Him utterly, for the sweetness of the love of God does not allow of love for the world and its beauty.

And if it be thus here on earth, how much closer will the Saints in heaven be united to the Lord in love! And this love is ineffably sweet and proceeds from the Holy Spirit, and all the heavenly hosts are nourished thereon.

God is love; and the Holy Spirit in the Saints is love. By the Holy Spirit is the Lord made known. By the Holy Spirit is the Lord magnified in heaven. By the Holy Spirit the Saints glorify God, and with the gifts of the Holy Spirit does the Lord give glory to the Saints, and this glory shall have no end.

To many people the Saints seem far removed from us. But the Saints are far only from people who have distanced themselves - they are very close to them that keep Christ's commandments and possess the grace of the Holy Spirit.

In heaven all things live and move in the Holy Spirit. But this same Holy Spirit is on earth, too. The Holy Spirit dwells in our Church; in the sacraments; in the Holy Scriptures; in the souls of the faithful. The Holy Spirit unites all men, and so the Saints are close to us; and when we pray to them they hear our prayers in the Holy Spirit, and our souls feel that they are praying for us.

The Saints live in another world, and there through the Holy Spirit they behold the glory of God and the beauty of the Lord's countenance. But in the same Holy Spirit they see our lives, too, and our deeds. They know our sorrows and hear our ardent prayers. In their lives they learned of the love of God from the Holy Spirit; and he who knows love on earth takes it with him into eternal life in the Kingdom of Heaven, where love grows and becomes perfect. And if love makes one unable to forget a brother here, how much more do the Saints remember and pray for us!

The holy Saints have attained the Kingdom of Heaven, and there they look upon the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ; but by the Holy Spirit they see, too, the sufferings of men on earth. The Lord gave them such great grace that they embrace the whole world with their love. They see and know how we languish in affliction, how our hearts have withered within us, how despondency has fettered our souls; and they never cease to intercede for us with God.

The Saints rejoice when we repent, and grieve when men forsake God and become like brute beasts. They grieve to see people living on earth and not realizing that if they were to love one another, the world would know freedom from sin; and where sin is absent there is joy and gladness from the Holy Spirit, in such wise that on all sides everything looks pleasing, and the soul marvels that all is so well with her, and praises God.

Call with faith upon the Mother of God and the Saints, and pray to them. They hear our prayers and known even our inmost thoughts.

And marvel not at this. Heaven and all the Saints live by the Holy Spirit and in the world there is naught hidden from the Holy Spirit. Once upon a time I did not understand how it was that the holy inhabitants of heaven could see our lives. But when the Mother of God brought my sins home to me I realized that they see us in the Holy Spirit, and know our entire lives.

The Saints hear our prayers and are possessed from God of the strength to help us. The whole Christian race knows this.

 

[ebia]

Hail everyone.

My relation with God is good, and due to that i´m opened to the thruth, but I cant realize what is the correct church, in spite of i´m thinking much of this.

I´ve problems with the protestant church because they say that the Bible is the only thruth, but: what books make up the canon, what books are holy? Macabeos, Iudit, Tobías are holy in one half of the christianity, but in the other hanf they are unholy: we need an auctority who decides this subject, and it is not the Bible, because the letters of the apostles mention books are considerated by all apocrifes: by example the profecy of Enoc, and books considerated canonical by all are not mentioned in the new testament: by example Job or Esther. Christ says to Peter "when you get strengthened, you confirm your brothers": we need one man who have the authority to resolve the subject, and this man only can be the Peter succesor.

Maybe there isn't a black-and-white, authority based, answer to your question.

Thats my crossroad, what do u think?

Maybe no part of the church has everything perfectly right.

 

[Znex]

This seems a reasonable explanation.

But that's sacrilege and heresy! There is no god but the Lord Almighty himself!
"I am the LORD, and there is no other;
apart from me there is no God.
I will strengthen you,
though you have not acknowledged me, so that from the rising of the sun
to the place of its setting
men may know there is none besides me.
I am the LORD, and there is no other." (Isaiah 45:5-6)

"Remember the former things, those of long ago;
I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like me." (Isaiah 46:9)

"Then you will know that I am in Israel,
that I am the LORD your God,
and that there is no other;
never again will my people be shamed." (Joel 2:27)

'[following Jesus' explanation of the greatest commandment]..."Well said, teacher," the man replied. "You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."
When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.' (Mark 12:32-34)

 

[tammynik]

But that's sacrilege and heresy! There is no god but the Lord Almighty himself!

What about the explanation is sacrilege and heresy. No where in that explanation did i read that the Saints should be considered a god. How did you see that in the explanation Every christian, including catholics, believe that there is only one God and that we should not make gods of anything or anyone else. There is nothing in the Catechism/catholic Doctrine that even gives the slightest hint of making a god of anyone or anything else except God Himself.
I really don't know why non-catholics are so sure of the fact that catholics practice idolatry. It simply is not true! I am catholic.

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
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And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, born of the Father before all ages; God of God, Light of Light, true God of true God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.
​

Who, for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit born of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered, died and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the living and the dead; and His kingdom shall have no end.
​

And I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke through the prophets.
​

And I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the forgiviness of sins; and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come.


​

This is the profession of faith recited by each and every catholic at Sunday Mass. Why then do people insist that we do not see God as being the only God, and that catholics are idol worshippers. If that were the case, then why bother professing a faith that does not apply. Sometimes, people just don't make no sense.

​

 

[laconicstudent]

But that's sacrilege and heresy! There is no god but the Lord Almighty himself!
"I am the LORD, and there is no other;
apart from me there is no God.
I will strengthen you,
though you have not acknowledged me, so that from the rising of the sun
to the place of its setting
men may know there is none besides me.
I am the LORD, and there is no other." (Isaiah 45:5-6)

"Remember the former things, those of long ago;
I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like me." (Isaiah 46:9)

"Then you will know that I am in Israel,
that I am the LORD your God,
and that there is no other;
never again will my people be shamed." (Joel 2:27)

'[following Jesus' explanation of the greatest commandment]..."Well said, teacher," the man replied. "You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."
When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.' (Mark 12:32-34)

Clearly you didn't even bother skimming what I posted before writing this, as your bizarre rant about polytheism makes no sense whatsoever in the context of this discussion. Lets try running it by one more time.









"By the Holy Spirit does man come to know the Lord, his Creator, and the Holy Spirit with His grace fills his entire being - his soul, his mind and his body.

The Lord gave the Saints His grace, and they loved Him and clung to Him utterly, for the sweetness of the love of God does not allow of love for the world and its beauty.

And if it be thus here on earth, how much closer will the Saints in heaven be united to the Lord in love! And this love is ineffably sweet and proceeds from the Holy Spirit, and all the heavenly hosts are nourished thereon.

God is love; and the Holy Spirit in the Saints is love. By the Holy Spirit is the Lord made known. By the Holy Spirit is the Lord magnified in heaven. By the Holy Spirit the Saints glorify God, and with the gifts of the Holy Spirit does the Lord give glory to the Saints, and this glory shall have no end.

To many people the Saints seem far removed from us. But the Saints are far only from people who have distanced themselves - they are very close to them that keep Christ's commandments and possess the grace of the Holy Spirit.

In heaven all things live and move in the Holy Spirit. But this same Holy Spirit is on earth, too. The Holy Spirit dwells in our Church; in the sacraments; in the Holy Scriptures; in the souls of the faithful. The Holy Spirit unites all men, and so the Saints are close to us; and when we pray to them they hear our prayers in the Holy Spirit, and our souls feel that they are praying for us.

The Saints live in another world, and there through the Holy Spirit they behold the glory of God and the beauty of the Lord's countenance. But in the same Holy Spirit they see our lives, too, and our deeds. They know our sorrows and hear our ardent prayers. In their lives they learned of the love of God from the Holy Spirit; and he who knows love on earth takes it with him into eternal life in the Kingdom of Heaven, where love grows and becomes perfect. And if love makes one unable to forget a brother here, how much more do the Saints remember and pray for us!

The holy Saints have attained the Kingdom of Heaven, and there they look upon the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ; but by the Holy Spirit they see, too, the sufferings of men on earth. The Lord gave them such great grace that they embrace the whole world with their love. They see and know how we languish in affliction, how our hearts have withered within us, how despondency has fettered our souls; and they never cease to intercede for us with God.

The Saints rejoice when we repent, and grieve when men forsake God and become like brute beasts. They grieve to see people living on earth and not realizing that if they were to love one another, the world would know freedom from sin; and where sin is absent there is joy and gladness from the Holy Spirit, in such wise that on all sides everything looks pleasing, and the soul marvels that all is so well with her, and praises God.

Call with faith upon the Mother of God and the Saints, and pray to them. They hear our prayers and known even our inmost thoughts.

And marvel not at this. Heaven and all the Saints live by the Holy Spirit and in the world there is naught hidden from the Holy Spirit. Once upon a time I did not understand how it was that the holy inhabitants of heaven could see our lives. But when the Mother of God brought my sins home to me I realized that they see us in the Holy Spirit, and know our entire lives.

The Saints hear our prayers and are possessed from God of the strength to help us. The whole Christian race knows this."

--St. Silouan the Athonite

 

[Znex]

Clearly you didn't even bother skimming what I posted before writing this, as your bizarre rant about polytheism makes no sense whatsoever in the context of this discussion. Lets try running it by one more time.

I guess so...I apologise for my outburst. :o

Back on topic then, this explanation is assuming that when we die we go to heaven. However, there is a equally weighed case that states that when we die we sleep until the resurrection; however, I'm not assuming either on the basis of ignorance.

This explanation also provides no reason for why the Christians of the past would need to communicate with us when The Lord knows and understands us even more than they do. The point of Jesus coming and dying was so that the barrier separating us and God was removed, not so it could be replaced with another. I see no reason why we should have someone intercede with us when there is someone even better to speak with (I'm speaking about the saints; not the Holy Spirit, whom I know is God).

 

[tammynik]

I see no reason why we should have someone intercede with us when there is someone even better to speak with

Then why ask friends and family to pray for us. Isn't that also a for of intercession?

 

[MrPolo]

On what basis do you assert that someone in heaven can hear petitions from around the world at the same time?

My question was for Jeronimomoulia who made a specific assertion. I asked him what basis he had for that assertion. If you would like to offer an answer on his behalf, feel free to do so. After that, I'd be happy to answer follow up questions you may have.

 

[Jeronimomoulia]

On what basis do you assert that someone in heaven cannot hear petitions from around the world at the same time?

I did not asserted that a member of Christ in heaven cannot hear me, in fact he can, but I cant be certain that he´s listening my prayers. The faith is believing that Christ hear me when i pray: thinking that Virgin Mary devotes every minute of the day to me is a pious believe that is not based in scripture, not even in the catholic counciles.

The Apostle Paul challenge the worship of Diana in Ephessy; being rejected himself by the craftmen of goddess, due to the hugh loss that Christianity could involve to its job. According to Catholic Church, craftmen only had to change the name of Diana to Mary of Ephessy, as in Spain every town has a invocation to Mary. Instead of "hail Diana of Ephessies", "hail Mary of ephessies". It´s profits would not be damned. Ephessies would be also shouting at jews for the patron of their city.

Saint Alfonso María de Ligorio justified the predication of the goodness and mercy of Virgin Mary in the sinners that got repent; but i can deplore this predication for coming back to paganism.

 

[MrPolo]

I did not asserted that a member of Christ in heaven cannot hear me, in fact he can.

Well let's stop right there. So what's the problem then of asking such a saint to pray for you just like Paul did to other members of the Body of Christ?

Romans 15:30-32 I urge you, brothers, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to join me in my struggle by praying to God for me.

Colossians 4:3 At the same time, pray also for us, that God may open to us a door for the word, to declare the mystery of Christ, on account of which I am in prison.

1 Thess 5:25 Brothers, pray for us.

2 Thess 3:1 Finally, brothers, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may speed ahead and be honored, as happened among you.​

There's no need for me to respond to charges of goddess worship or paganism. This is about one member of the Body of Christ asking another member of the Body of Christ to pray for him. Scripture does not qualify certain members of the Body as "off-limits." It is a very Scriptural concept to ask any member of the Body of Christ to pray for you, whether that person is your neighbor or a heavenly member of the Body of Christ. The Body of Christ is not divided.