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Nope, same list of books accepted in the 4th century at the Councils of Hippo and Carthage and accepted by Pope Damascus. If you can point to a reference where other books were previously accepted into the canon in the west and then removed, then you'd have a point.Seven books?
Who said anything about 7?
There's more books than seven in question here.
Oh, that's right, I forgot. The Catholic Church deleted books too.
Like this reference in the KJV that nobody seems to get bent out of shape about or try to make claims that the Bible teaches the worship of kings as equal to God?It's common knowledge around here that the word worship has changed definitions over time.
I find both the stereotypical Catholic as well as the stereotypical Protestant views on this subject such a snorefest.Nope, same list of books accepted in the 4th century at the Councils of Hippo and Carthage and accepted by Pope Damascus. If you can point to a reference where other books were previously accepted into the canon in the west and then removed, then you'd have a point.
I find both the Catholic as well as the Protestant views on this subject such a snorefest.
Bible Study Magazine -- What's in Your Bible?
If you take Matthew's Greek for how it's represented the Triumphal entry, you could readily point to the section you refer to as being that those who were present at Jesus' Crucifixion hurled insults at Him in the same way as the chief priests and teachers of the Law and elders had -- at the time of the writing. In other words, "Expect this same argument from the elders, teachers, even the chief priests. It was adopted from the insults Jesus heard from passersby at His crucifixion -- three days before He was resurrected."I don't know but if you go off of the witness of the gospels there was a jewish crowd there and they are the ones that Matthew referred to
Again, a closer look: it's passersby that hurl the insults. They are definitely not stopping, not an audience. They're not taking it all in. They look up, see the insult at the top of the Cross, and they respond with insults. Cf. John 19:19-20.(NIV) Matt 27:39 Those who passed by hurled insults at him, shaking their heads 40 and saying, You who are going to destroy the temple and build it in three days, save yourself! Come down from the cross, if you are the Son of God! 41 In the same way the chief priests, the teachers of the law and the elders mocked him. 42 He saved others, they said, but he cant save himself! Hes the king of Israel! Let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him. 43 He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, I am the Son of God. 44 In the same way the rebels who were crucified with him also heaped insults on him. 45 From noon until three in the afternoon darkness came over all the land. 46 About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, Eli, Eli,[c] lema sabachthani? (which means My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?).[d] 47 When some of those standing there heard this, they said, Hes calling Elijah.
It is far more readily concluded that because Jesus had been nailed on a Cross for three hours, losing blood, His speaking was slurred. Only the closest people could hear much of anything.Matthew says that the chief priests, teachers and the elders where also there mocking Jesus so it would be easy to conclude that these leaders would like to have as many witnesses as possible to see Jesus die. The in vers 46 Jesus crys our in Aramaic which those around him thought He was calling out to Elijah. Now it should also be easy to conclude that only those who have heard the law and the prophets would know Elijah don't you think? Do you think that the gentile crowds if there was any there would have known who Elijah was?
Why would it be written in Aramaic if no one's speaking Aramaic?It is generally accepted that the Gospel of Matthew was originally written in Aramaic and not Greek and was latter translated into Greek.
And yet they had Hebrew Scriptures. During Jesus' time. And were virulently anti-Pharisee, anti-Temple-leadership. They form the foil against the idea that this is just Pharisees or scribes pushing Hebrew language. No, it's not. It's Jesus' contemporaries.This may be the case but since the Essenes where exterminated in the 1st century one can easily conclude that they did not have a voice in the latter organization of the Hebrew canon.
That's a possibility. Hellenistic Jewish people were known to make pilgrimages to Jerusalem during Passover.I would not necessarily say that this is the case unless the Jews that showed up at Jesus' cruxifiction, which include's the priests and scribes were not local Jews. I am sure that some there where foreign Jews and I would have to conclude that not all of them were foreign Jews.
So what? Their actions at the time contradicts the idea that Hebrew was not valued outside Pharisaical Judaism. It actually was valued by Palestinian Judaism.Untenable? It is a historical fact that the Rabbinic form of Judaism has its roots in the Pharisees. And again from historical record the Essenes had absolutely no imput in the Hebrew canon due to their extermination by the Romans.
The kind of Jew the OC Jews weren't expecting*snip*
What kind of Jew was Jesus?
Do you have a reference where the western church ever accepted any books that are not currently in the Catholic Bible?I find both the stereotypical Catholic as well as the stereotypical Protestant views on this subject such a snorefest.
Bible Study Magazine -- What's in Your Bible?
Do you have an example where books in the Bible are cross-referenced to chapter/verse of other books that are not Scripture?Those are topical cross references, at best. Again, you can find the subject discussed in two places, but not cited from one to the other.
Do you have an example where books in the Bible are cross-referenced to chapter/verse of other books that are not Scripture?
I think this is where we differ. I believe that the Jews were still capable of recognizing the Jewish canon.
I am aware that there are books quoted/referenced in Scripture that are not part of Scripture. That is why the "must be quoted in the NT in order to be part of the canon" test fails. There are OT books that all accept as canon that are never quoted, and there are quotes from books that nobody consider to be part of the canon. Paul even quotes from pagan poets.
It seems the king of Baybylon looked at it in a different way in Ezek 21That's what it seems; unpalatable to some, but good for you!
Of course, but the converse doesn't bear against the assertion.Do you have an example where books in the Bible are cross-referenced to chapter/verse of other books that are not Scripture?
Then how can there being no direct quotes in the NT from the deuterocanonical books in any way provide evidence they are not canonical?Of course, but the converse doesn't bear against the assertion.
Then how can there being no direct quotes in the NT from the deuterocanonical books in any way provide evidence they are not canonical?
Maybe.....Because Luther said so?
No. I get told that RCC, OO and EO don't agree on a canon and that tradition doesn't do this or that - anything but an answer to my question.Maybe.
Did anybody ever answer your original question?
So I should misinterpret this passage to accept you view of it? Not only in this passage but in Mark 15:31; Luke 23:25; and John 19:31 all bear witness that there where Jews there at his death. No where in any of these passages does it say that it is gentile passerbys that are ridiculing Jesus. In fact no where does it say that there are any gentiles there at all except for Pilate and the soldiers.If you take Matthew's Greek for how it's represented the Triumphal entry, you could readily point to the section you refer to as being that those who were present at Jesus' Crucifixion hurled insults at Him in the same way as the chief priests and teachers of the Law and elders had -- at the time of the writing. In other words, "Expect this same argument from the elders, teachers, even the chief priests. It was adopted from the insults Jesus heard from passersby at His crucifixion -- three days before He was resurrected."
You are confusing chief priests with the high priest even though the high priest is one of the chief priests. I went back and looked and no where does it use the term chief priests as singular. It always uses it as plural. So the plural is correct.Note the plural: yet there was only one chief priest at the time of the Crucifixion. The only way Matthew could mean this in the plural would be across a period of years -- and Jesus only had a time of hours left before His death.
There is no doubt that their were others that passed by but from the accountings of scripture there is an audience as well as others that passed by and it says that both are Jews. Yet these Jews did not understand the Aramaic that Jesus spoke.Again, a closer look: it's passersby that hurl the insults. They are definitely not stopping, not an audience. They're not taking it all in. They look up, see the insult at the top of the Cross, and they respond with insults. Cf. John 19:19-20.
Those standing there at the Cross would be a different group than those passing by.
That is not the witness of scripture. He cried out in a loud voice "My God, My God why have You forsaken Me?" in Aramaic, to a crowd of Jews whether they were in the existing audience or passing by and there were Jews that did not understand what Jesus said.It is far more readily concluded that because Jesus had been nailed on a Cross for three hours, losing blood, His speaking was slurred. Only the closest people could hear much of anything.
They were Roman guards, and a tiny group of Jesus' followers. "The 12 disciples" had largely scattered, with limited exceptions.
I didn't say that no one spoke Aramaic. I said that not every Jew understood Aramaic, and that Aramaic was not the common tongue of the area at the time. If it was then why does scripture point out the few instances that Jesus used Aramaic? If it is all that He spoke or if it was the primary language He used during His ministry then there would have been absolutely no reason for these few sayings of His in Aramaic to be highlighted in Scripture.Why would it be written in Aramaic if no one's speaking Aramaic?
There is no doubt that there were Hebrew Scriptures during Jesus' time. I am not denying that. What I am saying is that no one can deny the Phariseical influence of establishing the Hebrew canon and the emphasis of the Law in Jewish history. The Pharisees had a much more direct influence in the history of modern Judaism where quite honestly the essenes had absolutely no influence at all up until the finding of the dead sea scrolls.And yet they had Hebrew Scriptures. During Jesus' time. And were virulently anti-Pharisee, anti-Temple-leadership. They form the foil against the idea that this is just Pharisees or scribes pushing Hebrew language. No, it's not. It's Jesus' contemporaries.
All Jews at that time where called to make a pilgrimage to Jerusalem for the passover. You were not Jew if you didn't.That's a possibility. Hellenistic Jewish people were known to make pilgrimages to Jerusalem during Passover.
Never said it was not valued. You are putting words in my posts. What I said is that Hebrew was a dead language that was used only in the synagogues and known only by the scribes and teachers of law. The common people of Palistine could not read Hebrew just like the common people of today cannot read Latin or Greek.So what? Their actions at the time contradicts the idea that Hebrew was not valued outside Pharisaical Judaism. It actually was valued by Palestinian Judaism.
The perfect Jew.What kind of Jew was Jesus?
I think that we have learned that there is no answer to this question on their part for to do so would force them to admit that Protestants have their own traditions that they follow and they are hardwired to deny all allusions to the idea that they follow traditions and thus cannot be Sola Scriptura.No. I get told that RCC, OO and EO don't agree on a canon and that tradition doesn't do this or that - anything but an answer to my question.
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