protestant birth

[Katydid]

OK what exactly did Martin Luther do that seperated the Protestants from the Catholics? I mean, I always knew he did something and I think it had to do with nailing papers up, call me crazy I learned this when I was a kid, but what exactly did he find wrong?

 

[Monica02]

Martin Luther was an Augustinian monk from Germany. He nailed the 95 Thesis on the door at Wittenburg. These writings dealt mainly with the doctirne of indulgences and related points. The Church was corrupt at that point in history and some were abusing the "selling" of indulgences. He eventually broke with the Church after refusing to recant his heretical teachings. Some princes used this as an opportunity to steal Church lands and property and also to ignore the authority of the Pope. Luther translated his version of what the Bible should be into the common German of the time. This is why the Protestant bible is missing 7 books from the OT.
The Council of Trent was the Church's response to the new heresy and also was instrumental in reforming the corrupt Church.

 

[drstevej]

OK what exactly did Martin Luther do that seperated the Protestants from the Catholics? I mean, I always knew he did something and I think it had to do with nailing papers up, call me crazy I learned this when I was a kid, but what exactly did he find wrong?

Luther posted 95 Latin theses (debate points) on the door of the Church dealing with abuses he saw in the Catholic Church. This was a common way to announce a debate.

These theses were translated and circulated (via the new technology of the printing press) throughout Germany and Europe making him a catalyst for the theological, political and eccleastical tension of his day.

Disputations followed as Luther's doctrinal concerns solidified. The issues of salvation (faith alone versus faith and works) and authority (the Bible alone versus the Bible and the teachings of the Church) distanced him from the Catholic Church's teaching.

The Holy Roman Emperor, Charles V, summoned him before a Diet (court) held at Wurms and he was asked to retract his errors. He refused and left. He was hidden in the Wartburg Castle for almnost a year as the tensions escalated. He returned to Wittenburg under the protection of Elector Frederick and continued to disseminate tracts expressing his views.

He was excomunicated by the Pope as a heretic.

Luther was not the first [Those before him included Savanarolla, Peter Martyr, Wycliffe, Hus and Lefevre de Estaples.] or only one to "protest" perceived abuses but he became the focal point, IMO, largely due to the impact of mass dissemination of tracts made possible through the new technology of the press and the force of his personality.

 

[Wigglesworth]

I believe the basic point of contention between Luther and the church leaders of his day was Luther's assertion of Scripture as his final authority, rather than the teaching magisterium of the church as the final authority. When he didn't read the Bible the way they did, they were offended.

Martin Luther considered himself a catholic Christian until his death. It was the church leadership that excommunicated Luther, not the other way around. He didn't just one day say he was taking his marbles and going home. Perhaps if the leadership would have allowed honest debate and exposure of sin, there would have been no Reformation.

Luther translated what we know as the apocryphal or deuterocanonical books of the Bible as well as the 66 that evangelicals accept. That's one reason they were published in the original King James Version of 1611. However, he did not consider the Apocrypha to be an acceptable source of doctrine, rather it was simply worthy of reading for an example of life and instruction of manners. I think that position was also taken by Jerome, the translator of the Latin Vulgate.

 

[filosofer]

He eventually broke with the Church after refusing to recant his heretical teachings.

Actually they broke with him, by excommunicating him (papal authority) and imposing the Imperial (Holy Roman Empire) ban, or death sentence (government authority).

Luther translated his version of what the Bible should be into the common German of the time. This is why the Protestant bible is missing 7 books from the OT.[/quote]

Not quite. Luther translated the contested books. Note: there are not 7 "missing books"; there are 15 OT Apocryphal books (or 14 if you include the Letter of Jeremiah into Baruch, as some editions have). His view was that the Apocrypha were secondary, and not on par with the accepted books of the OT.

The Council of Trent was the Church's response to the new heresy and also was instrumental in reforming the corrupt Church.

Perhaps more accurately, "The Council of Trent was the Roman/Papal Church's response..., and issued a few reforms of the Roman/Papal Church".

 

[brotheralex]

John 3:16

 

[filosofer]

If your looking for more information about luther and his teachings; The disciples of Martin Luther exist even till this day. There is a denomination called "Lutheran(s)". Look up more information about the Sect, on its official website.

There are several denominations that have "Lutheran" in their names. However, none of them are "disciples of Luther". We confess the Christian faith according to public teachings (known as the "Confessions of the Evangelical Lutheran Church"), not everything Luther personally believed or taught.

If you want more info, look here for many explanations and further links to the denominations.

Lutheran Information

 

[ByzantineDixie]

Martin Luther started a new sect which Protestantism has come hence.

Just FYI...we Lutherans do not believe that Luther started a new sect from which all of Protestantism sprung. Actually we believe that Luther corrected the abuses and doctrinal errors that had crept into the Catholic Church and, accordingly, returned the catholic church in the West to her pre-abuse condition. The Lutheran confessions repeatedly point out how our beliefs are not innovative but rather correspond to what was taught in the early church. We are neither Protestant nor Roman Catholic...however we are most certainly evangelical catholics!

Peace

Rose

 

[billwald]

What Luther did was to get himself excommunicated.

 

[drstevej]

What Luther did was to get himself excommunicated.

Any evidence that getting himself excommunicated was Luther's motive? He was certainly aware that excommunication might be the result -- but having read Luther fairly extensively I have not found any evidence of your assertion.

Certainly the prior history of Hus' protests is evidence that what Luther was doing in challenging Church practices could have resulted in his execution as well.

Is it not more accurate to say, "What Luther did he did knowing he could be excommunicated or worse."

 

[thereselittleflower]

Discovering what Luther "did" is what led me on my journey into Church History and ultimately into the Catholic Church

The Church was not corrupt at the time of Luther, though it was in definite need of ecclesial reform . .

The 95 thesis he posted on the Church door was an invitation to debate . .a common occurance at that time . .the Church door was like a bulliten board . .

The debate was not about the doctrines that he would develop later that led to his split with the Catholic Church, but about a particular practice regarding indulgences . . he never rejected indulgences, but had problems with a particular practice that was being promoted in regards to them to raise money build a Cathedral . .

The practice has been dubbed the "selling of indulgences" which is greatly misunderstood by most as to what this was really about . . and this was not really the start of the Reformation though in popular history it is called that . .

It would be a few more years yet before Luther would develop his doctrines of salvation without works (even of the kind James said was absolutely necessary) "Faith alone" . . . it was in debates about other doctrines he started to question openly, such as prayers for the dead, that he developed his doctrine of scripture alone and dsmissed 7 books of the bible that were canonized in the late 4th century . . This was done in response to a famous debate he had with Eck . . When Eck kept turning to the scriptures to prove that prayers for the dead were indeed scriptural, and Luther found he could not fight against that argument; he simply then declared that the particular book Eck was quoting from (Maccabees) was not scritpure . . and then he proceeded to throw out what have become known as the 7 Deuterocanonicals . . and with them he originally threw out James (because of it teaching salvation by works as well as faith in chapter 2), Hebrews, Jude and Revelation from the Canon of Scripture. (He was convinced by friends that no one would take him seriously if he went that far, so he put James, Hebrews, Jude and Revelation back into the canon of scripture in his 2nd edition of his bible).

His doctrines of Sola Scriptura (and denial of Sacred Tradition), Sola Fide (faith alone, denying the role works must play) and other doctines such as the denial of the priesthood, put him in direct conflict with the Church and he was eventually excommunicated . . . Because of the printing press, his ideas spread far and wide fairly easily.

The rest of protestantism sprung from this not because they sprung from Luther himself, but from the ideas he introduced, especially that everyman could interpret the scriptures for themselves, and so suddenly, every man that so chose to, became his own pope . . .

Luther wanted everyone to interpret scritpure that way he did and considered only himself to be correct . . . . so he was quite upset when all these other interpretations began to spring up . . .


Luther's revolt against the Catholic Church plunged Germany into a social darkness that held that country in a backwards state compared to the rest of Europe . . .The peasant revolt that he was a main instigator of, whether he wanted to be or not, and the resulting massacre of 100,000 peasants that occured also at his instigation (which he took full responsibility for, claiming he spoke as God commanded calling for the slaying, hacking, burning, etc of the revolting peasants) plunged Germany into a social and economic state that took it much longer to emerge from than any other European country . . .


The question is not whether or not the Catholic Church needed reform, all agree it did, but not all agree on what the nature of the needed reform really was . . .

The question really is, was Luther a man of God selected to lead any type of "reform" let alone that which he ended up leading . . . or was the "reformation" the result of a man in revolt against the Church taking things way to far and throwing out the baby with the bath water . . . .


That is what I strove to answer . . it didn't take long to asnwer that question, and to find out that most of what Luther threw out was baby . . . .


Discovering this started me on a 3 year journey to find the truth, and it lead me into the arms of the Catholic Church.


Peace in Him!

 

[FreeinChrist]

Luther posted 95 Latin theses (debate points) on the door of the Church dealing with abuses he saw in the Catholic Church. This was a common way to announce a debate.

These theses were translated and circulated (via the new technology of the printing press) throughout Germany and Europe making him a catalyst for the theological, political and eccleastical tension of his day.

Disputations followed as Luther's doctrinal concerns solidified. The issues of salvation (faith alone versus faith and works) and authority (the Bible alone versus the Bible and the teachings of the Church) distanced him from the Catholic Church's teaching.

The Holy Roman Emperor, Charles V, summoned him before a Diet (court) held at Wurms and he was asked to retract his errors. He refused and left. He was hidden in the Wartburg Castle for almnost a year as the tensions escalated. He returned to Wittenburg under the protection of Elector Frederick and continued to disseminate tracts expressing his views.

He was excomunicated by the Pope as a heretic.

Luther was not the first [Those before him included Savanarolla, Peter Martyr, Wycliffe, Hus and Lefevre de Estaples.] or only one to "protest" perceived abuses but he became the focal point, IMO, largely due to the impact of mass dissemination of tracts made possible through the new technology of the press and the force of his personality.

Good summary!!

 

[drstevej]

Thanks, the doctorate in Reformation History and Theology come in handy sometimes.

 

[Glisten]

The 95 Theses:

http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/history/95theses.htm

 

[Albion]

"Discovering what Luther "did" is what led me on my journey into Church History and ultimately into the Catholic Church "

I would want that everyone finds his or her right church, but there are a few items of historical inaccuracy in what I'm reading.

he never rejected indulgences, but had problems with a particular practice that was being promoted in regards to them to raise money build a Cathedral .

.

Actually, Luther did emphatically reject indulgences. The dispute over the promotion of them in Germany you refer to was merely the starting point.

The practice has been dubbed the "selling of indulgences" which is greatly misunderstood by most as to what this was really about . . and this was not really the start of the Reformation though in popular history it is called that

.

Yes, he opposed the sale of what was seen by the people to be a sale, but Luther found no support for indulgences at all, as can be seen in the Ninety-five Theses and what he maintained at the Leipzig Debates.

It would be a few more years yet before Luther would develop his doctrines of salvation without works (even of the kind James said was absolutely necessary)

Luther did not side with the idea of "salvation without works," just the opposite. Luther and Lutherans generally know that a faith which does not produce works is not a real faith. The issue is not "salvation without works" for that is impossible, but which if either contributes to one's salvation.

"Faith alone" . . . it was in debates about other doctrines he started to question openly, such as prayers for the dead, that he developed his doctrine of scripture alone and dsmissed 7 books of the bible that were canonized in the late 4th century . . This was done in response to a famous debate he had with Eck . . When Eck kept turning to the scriptures to prove that prayers for the dead were indeed scriptural, and Luther found he could not fight against that argument; he simply then declared that the particular book Eck was quoting from (Maccabees) was not scritpure . . and then he proceeded to throw out what have become known as the 7 Deuterocanonicals . . and with them he originally threw out James (because of it teaching salvation by works as well as faith in chapter 2), Hebrews, Jude and Revelation from the Canon of Scripture. (He was convinced by friends that no one would take him seriously if he went that far, so he put James, Hebrews, Jude and Revelation back into the canon of scripture in his 2nd edition of his bible).

In fairness, the Roman Catholic Church ALSO threw out several of the Apocryphal books following Luther's career, and Luther appealed to the practice of the Eastern Orthodox churches which are at least as old as the Roman See and which never believed in indulgences.

The rest of protestantism sprung from this not because they sprung from Luther himself, but from the ideas he introduced, especially that everyman could interpret the scriptures for themselves, and so suddenly, every man that so chose to, became his own pope . . .

A more accurate rendering would be to say that no man is a pope.

Luther's revolt against the Catholic Church plunged Germany into a social darkness that held that country in a backwards state compared to the rest of Europe . . .The peasant revolt that he was a main instigator of, whether he wanted to be or not, and the resulting massacre of 100,000 peasants that occured also at his instigation (which he took full responsibility for, claiming he spoke as God commanded calling for the slaying, hacking, burning, etc of the revolting peasants) plunged Germany into a social and economic state that took it much longer to emerge from than any other European country . .

.

Since Luther condemned the Peasant's Revolt, and since the Thirty Year's War was as much the doing of Catholic as well as Protestant forces, that is quite a stretch.

The question really is, was Luther a man of God selected to lead any type of "reform" let alone that which he ended up leading . . . or was the "reformation" the result of a man in revolt against the Church taking things way to far and throwing out the baby with the bath water . . . .


That is what I strove to answer . . it didn't take long to asnwer that question, and to find out that most of what Luther threw out was baby . . . .

Most religious historians point out that Luther was a very cautious and conservative thinker who refused to criticize many Catholic practices that other Protestants were keen to have removed from the church. He did not reject the liturgy, the Real Presence, images, the Church Calendar, the Immaculate Conception, and so on. He was determined that his issues remain the basics of God's and Man's relationship to each other, not to throw out anything else.

Discovering this started me on a 3 year journey to find the truth, and it lead me into the arms of the Catholic Church.

 

[ByzantineDixie]

Ablion...I wanted to rep you for that last post but your rep is turned off...unfortunate. Thank you for your excellent accessment and your knowledgable perspective regarding Luther. You have a accurate handle on what we Lutherans believe...especially regarding faith / works.

Important also to understand is that Luther did not throw any books out of the bible however he did identify three categories of biblical books, homolegomena (books on which doctrine should be formulated), antilegomena (books which should be used to support doctrine) and the apocryphal books (good books which should be read but not the inspired Word of God). This accessment is consistent with the understanding of several early church fathers as well and not an innovation on Luther's part.

Ablion, your comment regarding Luther's cautious and conservative approach is dead on.

Peace

Rose

 

[Albion]

Thank you, Rose. I apologize for not having all the controls in order here; I'm new and still trying to find my way around all the techniques and options.

 

[ufonium2]

Martin Luther of Germany was a Protestant Reformer. The age of Reformation was started by this European Monk. As a little boy, Luther had questions about his faith with god. Luther noticed alot of Heritcal teaching such as:Worship of saints, Man-made rituals, Euachrist, and pagan practices;poisining the spritual body of Christ. Thus the age of thought took place. Martin Luther started a new sect which Protestantism has come hence.

Martin Luther absolutely believed in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. I've never seen anything arguing that he didn't until this post. Care to back that up?

 

[SolomonVII]

OK what exactly did Martin Luther do that seperated the Protestants from the Catholics? I mean, I always knew he did something and I think it had to do with nailing papers up, call me crazy I learned this when I was a kid, but what exactly did he find wrong?

There was a concept the Middle Ages of God being a stern and unforgiving judge. Many peasants in Luther's Germany held this view, and such cataclysmic events as the Black Death, which had wiped out a third of the population of Europe in its first phase, only to return time and again, seemed to bear this imagery out.

In gerneral, people of that time were very pre-occupied with thier souls being eternally damned, and Luther too seemed to be very tormented with the fear that nothing that he could ever do would ever be sufficient to merit salvation.
The Church that Luther grew up in stressed good works which included sacraments, fasting, prayer, and for one's highest degree of security, the ascetic practices of the monastery, in which Luther hoped to find the security for his eternal soul that he longed for.

Yet even as an Augustinian monk, however, Luther was still plagued by doubt.

His epiphany came in the year 1515 when he read a phrase of St Paul which stated that "The just shal live by faith'. The phrase took on a new meaning for him, and he was struck with the idea that man would be justified, or saved, by faith, and by faith alone. Slowly, this idea led him to the belief that the pilgrimages, fasts, and sacraments and other good works that his church advocated were basically unnecessary, and that no man need either priest or pope for his own salvation.

Indulgences, and in particular an indulgence proclaimed by Leo X to raise money for the building of St Peter's Church became the issue that brough Luther's provative ideas head to head with the Church. Indulgences themselves were a elaboration of the system of penance that was a part of the doctrine of the Church from its earliest times. According to the theology, following confession and proof of contrition, the sinner recieved absolution for his sins through the sacrament of reconciliation. Even though he was now free from both the guilt of sin, and any fear of eternal damnation, yet he still owed further atonement in the form or penance both in this world and in purgatory.

The first indulgences, or remissions of these further penances that were granted by popes, were remitted to the crusaders. Later, pilgrimages could be substituted, and under the Avignonese popes, much criticized for their wordly corruption, money payments sufficed.

In spite of his natural respect for authority, and almost against his will, Luther was forced to the recognition that his beliefs were contrary to that of the Church. Even if his original intent was not to break away from the ancient church, his idea that the bible was his final authority, -and not the pope or church-, was a definite break with any teaching that had gone before.

In the Church that Luther was born into, the Church and the sacramental system were necessary components of the Christian voyage into the hereafter. In the Church he died in, this was not the case. Luther's theology of justication by faith alone was something that had not been a part of Chruch doctrine in either of the eastern or western orthodoxies. In that sense, it would be fair to say that, even if it was not his intent, Luther's teaching, as popularized as they were with the mass media, does define a clear break with the Christianity as it was practiced before.

It should also be noted that Luther remained an advocate of much of the traditions of the ancient church, such as devotion to Mary, the Real Presence, and many other of the rites and rituals of christian worship. It was the work of other Christian sects and denominations to progressively free themselves of these 'superstitious relics' of the ancient church. Nevertheless, the very nature of the Church was changed by the very import of Luther's teaching.

Certainly the corruption in some church practices in a church badly need of reform and reinvigoration, gave Luther's ideas a window of opportunity. but from a Catholic perspective(which is the only perspective in which Luther's actions could be termed wrong), to answer your question of what Luther did 'wrong', his message of justification by faith alone was contrary to the very essence of the sacramental system of the ancient church.

 

[Diane_Windsor]

Hi Katy

OK what exactly did Martin Luther find wrong?

See the Disputation on the Power and Efficacy of Indulgences Commonly Known as The 95 Theses by Dr. Martin Luther

He eventually broke with the Church after refusing to recant his heretical teachings.

False, Luther did not break with the Church-he became a member of the Church (ekklesia, which simply means "called out ones") when he accepted Christ as his saviour. Furthermore, the pope excommunicated him from the RC denomination in the papal bull Docet Romanum Pontificem. Earlier Martin Luther had burned the papal bull Exsurge Domine, which warned him of his pending excommunication.

The Biblical teachings of St. Martin Luther include the priesthood of the believer, sola Scriptura, sola Fide, etc. The Holy Spirit called and he answered--may God be praised!

Project Wittenberg is a good site to browse through some of his writings.

Diane