protecting the children

[faeriemom]

if I persevered my husbands meanness and inconsideration for the sake of my family, is it a sin that I finally booted him for abusing the children?

 

[Havoc]

If that's a sin then we really need to rethink who's side we're on.

 

[BarbB]

if I persevered my husbands meanness and inconsideration for the sake of my family, is it a sin that I finally booted him for abusing the children?

NO!

 

[DaQo'tah]

here is my views on this type of thing...


There is no reason to divorce here,,,however due to abuse, we need not stay in the same house while a husband or wife learns to deal with things like anger or strong drink...

But, as we see in this example, there are children to think about, then what we need to show the children is that we dont "walk away' from someone we have married,,,we waite for them to heal....

If I were married to a woman that has some problems, and started to show that she was a danger to the kids, then I would make sure that she was not around the kids "Untill" she was able to control herself better...

But I would never divorce my wife over this, for I want my kids to also understand that i would never walk away from them, even if they were to become a danger,,,I would want my kids to know that i only seek them to be better people, and to always be able to count on me to be ready to help in the healing,,,,as I would be with my wife..

To protect the children , you may move out of a house

But to protect the children in a different , but as important way, you may not divorce..

My thoughts

 

[Ampmonster]

kick his fanny out and tell him to get serious help.

 

[DaQo'tah]

....and tell your children that you love your husband just as much, and are praying for the day when he can return to lead his house as God ment for him to do....

 

[Salsa_1960]

There's no reason to put up with abuse.

 

[Ben johnson]

There is no reason to divorce here,,,however due to abuse, we need not stay in the same house while a husband or wife learns to deal with things like anger or strong drink...

Yes there is.

There are 3 ½ reasons the Bible gives for divorce, the "A's".

• Adultery (unrepentant) Matt5:32
• Abuse Malachi 2:16 (The Lord God says "I hate a man who covers his wife with violence")
• Abandonment 1Cor7:15
• Addiction --- this is the half; I consider this under "ABANDONMENT" --- one who addicts to drugs, has abandoned the marriage. t is not wrong to give an ULTIMATUM: choose ME or DRUGS. In this case it sems clear that choosing the DRUGS represents LEAVING THE MARRIAGE.

Faeriemom, you say "remain for the sake of the family"; how can the family thrive in the face of abuse? Do you know that a high percentage of abusers, were THEMSELVES abused? A wife who endures being beaten before her children, RAISES CHILDREN WHO WILL BEAT THEIR MATES!!!!!!! It's really that serious.

If there is ANY chance that the abuser can repent, then perhaps consider reconciliation; but the statistics do not create much hope for "reforming abusers". The FIRST time a wife is hit, it is HIS fault; the second and each subsequent time, it is hers --- she should not BE there FOR the second time.

The classic abused woman thinks: "If I only TRY HARDER, if I only do MORE THINGS RIGHT, then he will NOT HIT me." So trashed is her self esteem (physical abuse never occurs without emotional abuse), that she fails to recognize the PROBLEM is HIS! Not hers. No woman deserves to be beaten by her husband. Ever. No man deserves to be beaten by his wife --- ever.

Yet the battered woman remains; shattered ego, feelings of "worhlessness", even DESERVING the abuse. Do any of you READING this, SEE YOURSELVES? Make the call --- find a woman's shelter, and just call them to TALK; they have vast experience, far more than YOU do. And BATTERED MEN --- call the shelter too. There is no crime in being an abused man; IT'S NOT YOUR FAULT!!!!!

Call them. If not today, then FIRST THING MONDAY.

The battered woman remains because of fear of the unknown. But the unknown holds FAR LESS PAIN than the KNOWN ABUSE. Trust God --- He has a plan for you; to prosper you and not abandon you, to give you a future and a hope. Jeremiah 29:11-14

You have NOTHING to lose.

(Except bruises, broken bones, crying yourself to sleep night after night, despair, pain and sorrow, volumes of excuses, untruthfulness, empty hearts and souls, loneliness, grief, hopelessness...)

 

[Salsa_1960]

Ben,
I'm not trying to disagree with you. My husband abandoned me and I would hate to say that a wife is bound to a husband who abandoned her.

But, I do question where you got that out of I Cor 7:15?

~Sandy



7:10 To the married I give this command-not I, but the Lord -a wife should not divorce a husband,

7:11 (but if she does, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband), and a husband should not divorce his wife.

7:12 To the rest I say-I, not the Lord -if a brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is happy to live with him, he should not divorce her.

7:13 And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is happy to live with her, she should not divorce him.

7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified because of the wife, and the unbelieving wife because of her husband. Otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy.

7:15 But if the unbeliever wants a divorce, let it take place. In these circumstances the brother or sister is not bound. God has called you in peace.

7:16 For how do you know, wife, whether you will bring your husband to salvation? Or how do you know, husband, whether you will bring your wife to salvation?

 

[DaQo'tah]

my views are this...a christian husband can not divorce his wife just because she has moved out... so Abandonment is not enough to divorce over,,,however if the Abandonment that we are talking about , is actually that the wife is sleeping with another man, then the husband can rightly divorce his wife.


If a wife is hitting the husband, this is not enough to divorce her over,, for she needs help with her anger, so that she can return to the family that is always going to be waiteing for her to return and take her rightfull place at the husbands side....so "Abuse" is not a case by it'self for divorce,,and is not give as such by Christ as a reason for divorce...

Now as for " Addiction" I dont think anyone has ever made a case within the church that just being held under an " Addiction" is in any ways a good enough reason to divorce,,,,move out?..yes, clearly a husband can move out with the kids to protect the family from the addictions of a wife. But the husband must waite for the wife to seek help, and then be always ready to help her beat her health problems so that the family can stay as one...

again, as we can see,,,the short term answer for some situations is for the husband to take the children and get out of the house,,,now I would guess from the wife's point of view this might be a clear case of "Abandonment", but it is not,,,for the intent of the husband is to protect himself and his family, (Even to protect his wife), and this may call for a time apart as people deal with things and are allowed to heal....

 

[Ben johnson]

Ben,
I'm not trying to disagree with you. My husband abandoned me and I would hate to say that a wife is bound to a husband who abandoned her.

But, I do question where you got that out of I Cor 7:15?

I'm not sure what your question is. "Abandonment" is allowable grounds for divorce. We are not guilty of another's sin; if a person wishes to leave a marriage without cause, then by definition he or she is an unbeliever; the cause of the divorce rests solely on the one that leaves, the believer is not bound and does not sin --- the one who leaves, does.

a christian husband cannot divorce his wife just because she has moved out... so Abandonment is not enough to divorce over; however if the Abandonment that we are talking about , is actually that the wife is sleeping with another man, then the husband can rightly divorce his wife.

To quote Jeff Foxworthy, "When a woman says 'WE NEED TO SEE OTHER PEOPLE', I can guarantee you that if she doesn't have another steer already CORRALLED, she's at least CUT him from the HERD..."

The problem lies in whether or not the marriage CAN be saved, because it takes TWO; if the unbeliever FILES for divorce, then the believer does not sin in granting the divorce. This seems to be Paul's voice in, "If the unbeliever leaves, then the believer is not bound".

As far as abuse or addiction, yes while there IS a chance of reconciliation and change, then the marriage should be preserved; but understand that physical abuse is only the TIP of the ICEBERG; the emotional abuse is severe. Recidivism for abusers is nealy 100%; the abuser suffers from low self-esteem, consequenting in a need for "power/control". Abuse is not the PROBLEM, but only a SYMPTOM. For a change to occur, deep and personal psychotherapy must occur.

RE addiction --- this person spends every last penny on his habit, causing financial crisis to a marriage; given the choice between "rehabilitation or continuance", the latter is frequently chosen. One who abandons the marriage and refuses to quit bears the sin of wrecking the marriage. It is not her fault. The Scripture I gave is the best I can do; but I do not believe a woman is required to remain married forever to one who WILL not stop abusing, or WILL not stop doing drugs.

All of this discussion is POWERFUL incentive for people to choose wisely WHOM TO MARRY. If anyone enters a marriage thinking, "I can change this or that other thing", he or she is a FOOL; the only person we have the power to change, is OURESLVES. Better to choose the right mate, BEFORE marriage, than to deal with the anguish AFTER. Part of that, is to work on getting OURSELVES healthy, so that we can recognize problems in the other, and so that we ourselves will be a "good catch"...

 

[DaQo'tah]

at the time paul wrote, a man could divorce his wife with ease....He did not have to go to court, nor even to a priest,,,,

when paul wrote that if the spouse leaves the marrage then the christian does not sin, he was talking about a de facto divorce,,,(not getting divorced in the future),,,,a done-deal,,,

In such a case the christin that has already been divorced is to be viewed as if their spouse died,,,and is free to re-marry under the law...

But a Christian may not seek a divorce, nor agree to to get divorced,,,,a Christian must make a stand for his or her marrage,,,this may mean hanging in there when people of less faith would have walked away....

 

[Ben johnson]

I would agree with that. Now, if a CHRISTIAN marries a NON-CHRISTIAN, there is still a union between spirits; so just because the other is no Christian, is NOT grounds for divorce. And if one partner is saved DURING the marriage (but the other is not), that is not grounds either.

It's kindof a tough call when a woman leaves an abusive husband, and he does NOT want divorce; should she come back and "give him another chance"? The odds are that will only get her HIT again. This is a judgment call (I don't have Scripture to back up my opinion), but I think it would be reasonable for her to seak a divorce, I don't believe God approves of her getting hurt. I really believe she would not sin in seaking dissolution of the abuse. In such a case, who would God charge with the sin? Who does the WRONG? Did he not marry under FALSE PRETENSE? Promising to "love honor and charish", doesn't HE break the vows? I am convinced completely, that God js JUST and FAIR.

If the abuser refuses the divorce, or if the addict chooses DRUGS over marriage, or if the unfaithful partner refuses to stop adulterating, then the godly partner seeks a divorce; and I do not believe he or she sins. The CRIME, the breaking-of-MARRIAGE, was done by the OTHER...

I believe this OPINION follows Scripture; even if not spelled out word-for-word.

I am not a violent man --- BUT --- heaven help the man who beats, or rapes, or abuses a woman anywhere near me; I WILL interfere, even if it means forfeiting my own life. I feel just as strongly about child abuse, and I WOULD interfere if a guy is being beaten within my sight or hearing.

 

[Tracie]

DaQo'tah - I completely agree with everything you've said. It's not what people like to hear, but it is God's truth. Very well put!

Tracie

 

[tetelestai]

Ben, i feel almost as passionatly about abuse as you do, but i think you have forgotten to take into consideration the healing power of the Holy Spirit. i know statistics say that "once an abuser, always an abuser" but God consistantly defies statistics.
DaQo'tah, i agree with you on most things. i think you are truly speaking the Lords words here. but will you explain (biblicially if possible) how you came to the distinction between divorce and moving out? because if you were right about the reference to paul's time and the ease of divorce, what then is the difference between a legal divorce and a seperation?

 

[DaQo'tah]

Tetelestai,,,,,God hates divorce...

the reasons for getting a divorce as told us in the bible are very few in number...


But...

In today's world, the use of a "seperation" can actually be of some help in protecting the family and keeping the marrage on the right track to the healing it may need...

However Im not an expert in the Law,,,so thats about all I know about the terms themselves

 

[tetelestai]

ok. i guess what i am trying to say is that a marriage is basically over when one partner or the other walks out. and so i wonder at this distinction between seperation and divorce. if what you said was true, and in pauls time, then divorce was not a legal thing, but instead just an abandonment. and if the Lord hated that, then why would he now condone "seperation" ?

 

[DaQo'tah]

tetelestai....

okay I can say that athough divorce was very easy at the time of the writeing of the bible for Jewish men to get....there still was a big difference between divorce and cheating and stuff.

divorce is something the man had a right to do for many reasons, and he could just write her that they are divorced, hand her the letter, and push her out the door.

BUT,,,we have to remember that when christ showed up he totally was against this whole system of divorce that the men were enjoying.

Remember He stated that unless your wife chreats on you, that you do not have the right to divorce her ever....this was very upsetting to the men and they turned and asked about the point of getting married if it was so hard to get divorced?

This reaction to the words of christ just shows how the men of that time had grown used to the system and liked the hold it gave them over their wives.


I believe that in many situations in today's world, where drugs and evil things can work into a marrage and cause many hurts, that a separation might well be the best idea, so to allow people to get help, and be safe.

Seperation is a tool that a wife can use to keep herself and her children safe , and allow a husband that might have personal troubles the freedom to seek help . Seperation is ment to be a way to bring the whole family back, and allow the wife and husband and children to rejoin the family.

Remember, the will of God is that the husband and wife remain married until death, and that if they have trouble in the marrage, that such trouble is fixed, and that the marrage goes on....

that should always be the goal in any seperation...

 

[SqueezetheShaman]

if I persevered my husbands meanness and inconsideration for the sake of my family, is it a sin that I finally booted him for abusing the children?

oh god no. it would be abuse on your part too had you stayed, in my opinion.

edit, pardon me, had you allowed him to stay.

 

[ReUsAbLePhEoNiX]

if I persevered my husbands meanness and inconsideration for the sake of my family, is it a sin that I finally booted him for abusing the children?

Would you rather

A. Not "sin" by staying with your husband and possibly live your entire life unhappy and miserable with children who have to live with abuse related phycological issues?
or

B. Divorce your husband ( thus sinning), leave an abusive environment, and possibly find another life partner who will not abuse your kids.

Which is the greater sin and which produces the most heartache?

Its a tough choice, I had an abusive father, and often wonder if I would have turned out better if he had not been around to make me feel like $@#%. As an adult I recognize many flaws in my personality that are directly related to being abused. But then again, if my mom had left him I might have grown up in poverty or with a father figure worse than the one I grew up with.

I dont know, but I dont think one should stay unhappy because they are afraid of offending the God of the Universe by getting a divorce.