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JimfromOhio said:In case you didn't know, I grew up in a wealthy family and learned Christian stewardship from my parents. What I am hearing from Prosperity Preachers is not what I have learned from my parents in God's view of financial stewardship.
charityagape said:Then why not buy the ten thousand dollar hearing aid?Actually I do know you grew up in a rich family, I've heard you say it before. Do you find it easy to be content with where God has placed you financially, when you have plenty of finances?
charityagape said:Of course parents who don't spoil their kids are the best. But going without decent shoes, sufficent food, electricity to keep warm, that's lack and not prosperity and its evil.
I have so many threads going but, prosperity is a good thing. I know you weren't spoiled as a child JIm, but did you ever have to miss supper, did your parents ever tell you there's nothing, nothing for your birthday because we have to pay the electrical bill before its turned off, did you freeze you're tail off at night while trying to do your homework?
Poverty is evil.
JimfromOhio said:Poverty is not evil. Poverty is an unpleasant life's experience that some have to go through just as those who are in the wheelchair for life. Why do people view people living in poverty evil? Why do people view unhealed people evil? They themselves are not evil but the are living in an "unpleasant" environment that many of us do NOT want to face. However, such things do happen to Christian people.
charityagape said:Jim, have you experienced poverty? Not just lived in poor conditions voluntarily for a brief time, but experienced poverty? And the poverty examples I gave are just my own very mild (yet still horrid) experiences.
Think of the familiy in India who have to sell one of their children into slavery (usually sexual in nature) because the cannot feed that child or their other children. That's poverty and its evil. Think of the mother in africa holding her infant while is screams from hunger until its too weak to scream and then finally is silenced by death. Poverty is not just an UNPLEASENT experience and the lack of a new TV, poverty and lack are an evil invention and they are not gifts of God.
Jim, I respect many of your posts and you're a very intelligent man, but only someone who's never known poverty can say something like its an unpleasent experience.
charityagape said:Not the same Jim. Observing something is not the same as living it.
charityagape said:Jim, you don't think watching your child die of starvation or selling your child to feed your other children is evil, and at the very least much more than an unpleasent experience.
JimfromOhio said:That's where God looks at our behavior whether we are living in poverty or living in wealth. What do we do to avoid starvation? Pride? Laziness? That was the ministries we were involved in. We helped them get jobs, provide services for their needs and get them out of poverty. More often than not, people living in poverty often get discriminated by those who looks at them and avoid them.
NotEnoughFaith2BeAtheist said:This is not to codemn anyone, but I hope this will just make you question your motives.
I know there are a lot of prosperity teachers (none will be named) out there today, and reading this has provided a lot to think about for me:
Some Prosperity teachers equate wealth to a sign of godliness and faith. The Bible says otherwise.
"This is what the wicked are like-- always carefree, they increase in wealth." (Psalm 73:12)
"No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money." (Matt. 6:24)
"He said to them, 'You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of men, but God knows your hearts. What is highly valued among men is detestable in God's sight." (Luke 16:15)
"Then Jesus said to his disciples, 'I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." (Matt.19:23-24) Note: It is impossible for a camel to go through the eye of a needle.
"Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming upon you. Your wealth has rotted, and moths have eaten your clothes. Your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days." (James 5:1-3)
"But now we call the arrogant blessed. Certainly the evildoers prosper, and even those who challenge God escape." (Mal. 3:15)
"They will throw their silver into the streets, and their gold will be an unclean thing. Their silver and gold will not be able to save them in the day of the LORD's wrath. They will not satisfy their hunger or fill their stomachs with it, for it has made them stumble into sin." (Ezk. 7:19)
"But the one who is rich should take pride in his low position, because he will pass away like a wild flower. For the sun rises with scorching heat and withers the plant; its blossom falls and its beauty is destroyed. In the same way, the rich man will fade away even while he goes about his business." (James 1:10-11)
"You say, `I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.' But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked." (Rev. 3:17)
[See the link for the rest of the article: http://www.cdu.jesusanswers.com/prosperity.html ]
Quotes from teachers of the prosperity doctrine.
..useless wranglings of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain...I Timothy 6: 5..
Marilyn Hickey:
"What do you need? Start creating it. Start speaking about it. Start speaking it into being. Speak to your billfold. Say, "You big, thick billfold full of money." Speak to your checkbook. Say, "You, checkbook, you. You've never been so prosperous since I owned you. You're just jammed full of money." (Marilyn Hickey, "Claim Your Miracles" (Denver: Marilyn Hickey Ministries, n.d., audiotape #186, side 2)
Benny Hinn:
"Poverty is from the devil and that God wants all Christians prosperous." (Benny Hinn, TBN, 11/6/90)
"Say after me, all of you, everybody say it, 'The wealth of the wicked is mine.' [The audience repeats.] One more time, (The audience repeats) One more time. (The audience repeats it again)" (Benny Hinn. Praise-a-Thon, TBN, April 1990) (Its an old practice that if you hear something said by your own voice long enough you will believe it).
"The Lord giveth and NEVER taketh away. And just because [Job] said, 'Blessed be the name of the Lord,' don't mean that he's right. When he said, 'Blessed be the name,' he was just being religious." (TBN, Nov., 1990).
Im sick and tired of hearing about streets of gold. I dont need gold in Heaven, I gotta have it now. I mean, when I get to glory, all my bills will be paid, brother. I wont have bills in glory. I gotta have it here. You say, Well, Benny Hinn, isnt it woderful to have streets of gold i heaven? Well, of course, but if I hear the thing one more time of how it will be and how it was, Im gonna kick somebody (Benny Hinn, Praise the Lord. Nov 8th 1990. Audiotape.)
Juanita Bynum:
"Your miracle is attached to what's in your pocket right now! You're trying to hold on to it, but God sent me to tell you to, 'Let it go! Let it go!'" (Juanita Bynum, TBN, Fall Praise-A-Thon, November 1, 2004)
"God said, 'Pick up the phone right now!' He said, '1,000 persons, you are going to sow the $1,000 seed.' You got to! You got to tonight! There is a miracle on it! I know what I'm talking about! He brought me in here to tell you that!" (TBN, Fall Praise-A-Thon, November 1, 2004)
"Somebody right here in television land, God said, '$1,000.' You're sitting there saying, 'You know what? All I got is $1,000.' If that's all you got, oh Jesus! Then you got the miracle seed in your hand!" (TBN, Fall Praise-A-Thon, November 1, 2003)
"You need to send a thousand dollars. If you cant send a thousand, send five hundred...if all you have is a nickel, wrap it in tissue and put it in an envelope. If all you have is your clothes, send them." (TBN, Fall Praise-A-Thon, November 8, 2003)
"If all you have is $79.36, I double-dare you to empty your bank account. Close your account." (TBN, Fall Praise-A-Thon, November 8, 2003)
"If you want the power, you have to sow the seed." (TBN, Fall Praise-A-Thon, November 8, 2003)
"Youve got three days to get that into your mailbox. Im not afraid to say this. I am walking in my authority if you dont postmark it by the tenth, we will not accept it. God says you have three days to get your thousand-dollar seed in the mail." (TBN, Fall Praise-A-Thon, November 8, 2003)
"You cannot violate the principle. You have to give. If you dont have any money then youd better get a penny in your hand or something." (TBN, Fall Praise-A-Thon, November 8, 2003)
"The Lord told me to give you these socks In your time of prayer, you are to wear them, and you will walk in authority. Be careful what you say, because what you say will come to pass." (TBN, Fall Praise-A-Thon, November 8, 2003)
"Some of ya'll sitting there holding your wallet...God said, 'Give it to me! Give it to me! Give it to me! Show me how much you love me! Give it to me! I want to know if you're mine! If you're really mine. How come you can't hear me say, write the check?'" (TBN, Fall Praise-A-Thon, November 1, 2004)
"Some of you watching and you might be saying, 'Let me pray about it and see if God is talking to me.' You don't have to see if God is talking to you if you got a $77.00 seed offering in any bank account or pocket. He is talking to you. You need to pick up the phone because I'm telling you, tonight there is an anointing in this studio with your name on it. You need to get a seed into the network tonight." ("Daystar Fall Share-A-Thon," September 21, 2004)
"I'm going to get my seed in the ground because what I make happen for somebody else, God is going to make happen for me. Pick up the phone! I don't care if the lines are busy for half the night. Keep on trying! Put it on redial! Put it on redial! Tell the Devil that, 'I got an emergency! I need something! I need something from God and God needs something from me!'" ("Daystar Fall Share-A-Thon," September 21, 2004)
"Pick up the phone! It may be your last $77.00 seed offering. But you pick up the phone and you make that pledge. Because God is ready to turn some things around for you!"("Daystar Fall Share-A-Thon," September 21, 2004)
"If you're one of those three people that the Lord spoke through me moments ago about a million dollar gift. Whether you're that professional athlete, whether you're that successful businessman or whether you're that woman that has been blessed. You do what the Lord is telling you to do. Because, when God speaks about a significant seed, He has a significant miracle on His mind. [Jaunita Bynum: "Yes!"] God doesn't play games! And that's serious business when you start talking about levels like that. [Jaunita Bynum: "That's Right!"] That's because God has a significant miracle on His mind." (Marcus Lamb, "Daystar Fall Share-A-Thon," September 21, 2004)
Bishop Neil Ellis
in ten months there will be a revival, and souls will be saved, but in the midst of this there will be an economic revival. (Bishop Neil Ellis, TBN, September 16th 2002)
He will pastor a church That has to be, has to be, poverty free. This has to happen. He added.. Because of the anointing, (His Emphasis).
I am not supposed to be pastoring poor people. (He did add that God will send poor people to him but only so they get a release from poverty).
Bishop Harold and Brenda Ray
Our goal is as simple as it is strategic: To create wealth! And empower our people to steward that wealth for the purposes of the kingdom, the strengthening of their communities and for the economic well being of their children's children! (Emphasis in red on their official web site)
Fred Price
most employers at least have enough common decency about them that they don't ask somebody to work for them for free.... If a man has enough nicety about him to do that, can't you at least believe that the Father God is not asking you to serve Him for free either? (D.L. McConnell p.170 op. cit. F. Price Faith, Foolishness, presumption p.7)
The whole point is I'm trying to get you to see - to get you out of this malaise of thinking that Jesus and the disciples were poor and then relating that to you - thinking that you, as a child of God, have to follow Jesus. The Bible says that He has left us an example that we should follow His steps. That's the reason why I drive a Rolls Royce. I'm following Jesus' steps. Fred Price. (Ever Increasing Faith on Trinity Broadcasting Network, December 9, 1990.)
You can talk about me all you want while I'm driving by in my Rolls Royce that's paid for, and I got the pink slip on it. Talk all you want. Bad mouth all you want. Don't hurt me in the least. Doesn't bother me. It's a whole lot easier to be persecuted when I'm riding in my car and I got the pink slip than it is when I'm riding in a car and owe my soul to the company store. Fred Price. (Ever Increasing Faith program, TBN, March 29, 1992.)
Yeah, God has pleasure in the prosperity. So he must have displeasure in the poverty. So if he does, then poverty couldn't be from God. Yeah, but Brother Price, but God allows it. God lets it happen. You're right, he does. He does, because you do. He can't do anything about it (Ever Increasing Faith 11/16/90).
The Bible says that He [Jesus] had a treasurer-a treasury they called it the bag); that they had one man who was the treasurer, named Judas Iscariot; and the rascal was stealing out of the bag for three-and-a-half years and nobody knew that he was stealing. You know why? Because there was so much in it, He couldn't tell. Nobody could tell that anything was missing. If He had three oranges in the bottom of the bag and he stole two of them, don't tell me He wouldn't know that some was missing. Beside that, if Jesus didn't have anything, what do you need a treasury for? A treasury is for surplus. It's not for that which you're spending. It's only for surplus-to hold it until you need to spend it. Therefore, He must have had a whole lot that needed to be held in advance that He wasn't spending. So He must have had more than He was living on. (Ever Increasing Faith program TBN Nov.23, 1990)
John Avanzini
"...Jesus lived in great prosperity..." (John Avanzini, Was Jesus Poor?, Believer's Voice of Victory, January, 1996, p. 8)
"The fact is, Jesus had a nice house." (John Avanzini, Was Jesus Poor?, Believer's Voice of Victory, January, 1996, p. 9)
"Another thing you may not realize is that Jesus wore designer clothes...Why do you need to know that? Because until you know that Jesus was prosperous, you won't be either. You may have His kindness, you may have His gentleness, you may have all His other attributes, but you'll never have His prosperity." (John Avanzini, Was Jesus Poor?, Believer's Voice of Victory, January, 1996, p. 8)
Gloria Copeland (Kenneth Copelands wife)
"Give $10 and receive $1000; Give $1000 and receive $100,000 give one house and receive one hundred houses or a house worth one hundred times as much. Give one airplane and receive one hundred times the value of the airplane. In short, Mark 10:30 is a very good deal" (in her book God's Will Is Prosperity: p. 54).
T.D. Jakes
Jakes, who drives a Mercedes, has moved with his wife and their five children to a luxurious seven-bedroom home with swimming pool in the White Rock Lake area of Dallas. He said the home cost more than $1 million. I do think we need some Christians who are in first class as well as coach, Jakes said. (Jim Jones, Rising-star evangelist ministers to interracial congregation, The Fort Worth Star Telegram, Aug.)
Besides, Jakes says during an interview and in his sermons Jesus was a rich man. He had to have been, in order to have supported his disciples and their families during his ministry. (Kaylois Henry, Bishop Jakes Is Ready. Are You?, The Dallas Observer magazine, June 20-26, 1996, pg. 22.)
The myth of the poor Jesus needs to be destroyed, because its holding people back. (Ibid., pg. 31.)
Incidentally Jakes refers to an adulterous man as a frightened little boy and a wife beater as a terrified little boy. (Jakes, Loose That Man, op. cit., pp. 123-124.)
Robert Tilton
"Being poor is a sin, when God promises prosperity. New house? New car? That's chicken feed. That's nothing compared to what God wants to do for you" (Charismatic Chaos, p. 285 quoted from a Trinity Broadcasting Network program in 1990).
Jesse Duplantis
..speaking about Mark 4
Duplantis: This is the most important chapter in the Bible, in my opinion, because it deals with sowing and reaping .
Now notice this sower here. He sows 4 times. He sows verse 4, he sows 5, he sows verse7, he sows verse 8. This man here loses 75% of his seed! He loses verse 4, he loses verse 5, he loses verse 7. Now he gets blessed on verse 8, thank you Jesus! But he lost verse 4, verse 5, verse 7. I wonder how many you lost?
Now the Lord told us to go into the world and preach the gospel to every creature, didn't He? It costs billions of dollars to do that, between the satellite communication hookup and everything! Everything! Well, how come we haven't done it yet? Because we've lost verse 4, we've lost verse 5, we've lost verse 7. Every once in a while we get blessed on verse 8. But just think if you got blessed 30, 60 or 100 fold on verse 4; 30, 60 or 100 fold on verse 5; 30, 60 or 100 fold on verse 7; 30, 60 or 100 fold on verse 8, look out Toronto! Now you could buy it. Because every time you give God $50, He gives you $5000. Every time you give Him $100, He gives you $10,000. Every time you give Him $1000, He gives you $100,000. Every time you give him $100,000, $10 million. Before you know it, that building is yours, because they will sell it for the right price. You pick the denomination, God picks the multiplication.
Verse 23 of Mark 4: If any man have ears to hear, how does faith come? So you can substitute to read 'if any man have ears to faith, let him faith."
So it's up to you what you give. But you see if you forget what you sow and do not name your seed, then the devil will steal your harvest and you don't know - 'God, the devil's stolen' - you can't figure out what is happening.
The multiplication system of God that God put into the family. Now I had a theologian tell me one time, "I tell you what, Brother Jesse, if you truly understood the Word of God, you would realize that Mark Chapter 4 is not dealing with economic substance. It's dealing with seed." I said, "Sir, you can't eat 30,000 acres of corn."
I had a man say, "You look so prosperous, Brother Jesse." I said, "Well, I'm backed by a very rich Jew. Yeah!! Yes, I am! His Name is Jesus. I'm backed by Him." (Jesse Duplantis, Trinity Broadcasting Network, September 21, 1998)
Rick Joyner
"I do believe you know wealth in a sense is like energy you can't destroy it, its just transferred, and I believe in a great economic collapse. The wealth of the world will not destroyed it will be transferred, and I believe a lot of it will be transferred to the believers." (Rick Joyner CBN Jan. 3, 2000)
Rod Parsley
"I'm talkin about your money. You know one of the greatest things that is going to happen in the year 2,000 were about to see the church rise up with a revelation that only this generation has ever been given of Gods word concerning high finances in the kingdom of God. And we are just about to see the greatest transfer of wealth out of the hand of the wicked into the hand of the just." (Rod Parsley. Jan.7,2000 Breakthrough).
Creflo Dollar
"Well, you need to hear about money, because you ain't gonna have no love and joy and peace until you get some money!" (Creflo Dollar, Praise the Lord, July 20, 1999)
Dragons87 said:Let's see...
Prosperity theory: God will, by promise, grant personal wealth to all His followers.
In other words: All Christians should be rich.
Then...
Poverty theory: only the ones in poverty enjoy a true relationship with God.
In other words: All Christians should be poor.
The reality: There are Christians in ALL STRATAS OF SOCIETY, from the richest all the way down to the poorest. It's the simple, simple, simple truth.
In other words: BOTH theories are wrong.
charityagape said:People that are poor and suffering are poor because of their own doing?
Note: I am glad you're involved in a ministery that helps people go from poverty to biblical prosperity.
charityagape said:Hm maybe. I don't think wealth equals faith, Michael Jackson has wealth and sucess. However, I think the Christian who has wealth owes that to faith in God. Or to their parents. Its God that gives the power to get wealth.
Also, prosperity does not equal tons of cash, it can be tons of cash, but it doesn't have to be. It's about God meeting your needs. Whatever those needs may be.
moses916 said:...BROTHER: From what is the love of money produced?
OLD MAN: From desire, for unless a man desires he does not possess. When a man desires, he possesses, and when he possesses he has fulfilled his desire; and when he has fulfilled his desire, he becomes greedy; and when he has become greedy he commits fraud, and when he has committed fraud his possessions have become many.
When his possessions are many, his love diminishes, and when his love has diminished, the remembrance of God is removed from his heart. And when the remembrance of God has been removed from his heart, the mind becomes darkened, and his understanding is blinded; and when his understanding has become blinded, the power of discernment is darkened, and when the power of discernment has become dark, the soul loses its sight.
And when the soul has lost its sight, good is rooted out therefrom, and wickedness enters in, and sin takes up its rule; and when sin has taken up its rule, the thought of God is blotted out, and the passions of the body are stirred up, and they seek to satisfy their needs. And having taken that which they sought for, it is necessary for much money to be collected, and when money is multiplied, the gratification of the body is fulfilled, and when it eats and drinks, and commits adultery and fornication, and it lies and works fraud and oppression, and it transgresses the covenant, and destroys the Law, and treats the promises with contempt, and the lust for the things which are seen is fulfilled.
Let money be an abominable thing in our sight, and let us not love it; but if we perform the lust of the flesh it is an absolute necessity to love money; for money belongs to the flesh and not to the spirit, even as the Apostle says, "The flesh hurts the spirit, and the spirit the flesh, and both are opponents each of the other" (Galatians 5:17)...
from E. A. Wallis Budge, "The Paradise of the Holy Fathers," Seattle: St. Nectarios Press, 1984, pp. 265-266
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