Propitiation

zoidar · Mar 9, 2024

Hammster said:
Pray for them all.

Ok! Isn"t this the same all God desires to save and gave His Son as a ransom for?

First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.
— 1 Timothy 2:1-6

Hammster · Mar 10, 2024

zoidar said:
Ok! Isn"t this the same all God desires to save and gave His Son as a ransom for?

First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.
— 1 Timothy 2:1-6

He desires to save all sorts of men. If God wants to save each and every person, He can. He’s not wringing His hands hoping that at least some will believe.

zoidar · Mar 10, 2024

Hammster said:
He desires to save all sorts of men. If God wants to save each and every person, He can. He’s not wringing His hands hoping that at least some will believe.

Ok, so God wants us to pray for all kings, because He desires to save some kings and because He gave himself as a ransom for some kings?

Samson2021 · Mar 10, 2024

zoidar said:
Ok, so God wants us to pray for all kings, because He desires to save some kings and because He gave himself as a ransom for some kings?

Well said.

I always thought it clever that when Jesus taught the disciples to pray "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven"
Seeing it is Gods will that "all men should be saved and come to the knowledge of the Son of God" then they are praying
according to Gods will. I wonder how many millions of times that prayer has been spoken?

Hammster · Mar 10, 2024

zoidar said:
Ok, so God wants us to pray for all kings, because He desires to save some kings and because He gave himself as a ransom for some kings?

Because you don’t know who He will save.

Samson2021 · Mar 10, 2024

Hammster said:
Because you don’t know who He will save.

Perfect answer "Who He will save" As it is up to Him to save then who is He gonna leave out?

zoidar · Mar 10, 2024

Hammster said:
Because you don’t know who He will save.

The problem is it is God asking us to pray for people to be saved, He didn't send Jesus as a ransom for. Is such a command sincere? I think it has less to do with what we know, but all to do with what God knows.

Also I find it flow much better with the text God telling us to pray for the same people to be saved, He desires to see saved.

Hammster · Mar 11, 2024

Samson2021 said:
Perfect answer "Who He will save" As it is up to Him to save then who is He gonna leave out?

Yes. Thats what happens when one is sovereign.

Hammster · Mar 11, 2024

zoidar said:
The problem is it is God asking us to pray for people to be saved, He didn't send Jesus as a ransom for. Is such a command sincere? I think it has less to do with what we know, but all to do with what God knows.

Also I find it flow much better with the text God telling us to pray for the same people to be saved, He desires to see saved.

Does it say to pray for their salvation?

zoidar · Mar 11, 2024

Hammster said:
Does it say to pray for their salvation?

No, it says it's pleasing to God we pray for all kings, since God wants all kings saved, from my understanding of 1 Tim 2. It wouldn't make sense it's pleasing to God we pray for all kings, since God wants all kinds of kings saved. That's my point.

Samson2021 · Mar 11, 2024

"As in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive." 1 Co 15:22
"Yes Adams one sin brings condemnation for everyone, but Christs one act of righteousness brings a right relationship with God and
a new life for everyone." Rom 5:18
"He gave His life to purchase freedom for everyone. This is the message God gave to the world at just the right time." 1 Ti 2:6
"For God saved us and called us to live a holy life. He did this not because we deserve it, but because that was His plan from before the
beginning of time-to show us His grace through Christ Jesus." 2 Ti 1:9

There are many, many more that say the same thing.

The actual problem is almost nobody sees another period of time in which another group will be perfected for they cannot see past this one.
Where there is a lack of vision the people perish.
And that is the vision for almost all today.

Hammster · Mar 11, 2024

zoidar said:
No, it says it's pleasing to God we pray for all kings, since God wants all kings saved, from my understanding of 1 Tim 2. It wouldn't make sense it's pleasing to God we pray for all kings, since God wants all kinds of kings saved. That's my point.

Let’s see what it says.

for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity.
— 1 Timothy 2:2

zoidar · Mar 11, 2024

Hammster said:
Let’s see what it says.

for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity.
— 1 Timothy 2:2

I think v. 3-4 connects to v. 1-2

First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
— 1 Timothy 2:1-4

Why is it good and acceptable to pray for all kings (v. 1-2)? Because God desires all men to be saved (v. 3-4).

Hammster · Mar 11, 2024

zoidar said:
I think v. 3-4 connects to v. 1-2

First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
— 1 Timothy 2:1-4

Why is it good and acceptable to pray for all kings (v. 1-2)? Because God desires all men to be saved (v. 3-4).

He actually says why.

“so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity.”

zoidar · Mar 12, 2024

Hammster said:
He actually says why.

“so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity.”

It's not that I disagree, but that is not all he says. What is it that is good and acceptable to God our savior and why is it good and acceptable?

Hammster · Mar 12, 2024

zoidar said:
It's not that I disagree, but that is not all he says. What is it that is good and acceptable to God our savior and why is it good and acceptable?

Again, he says what and why.

What:
First of all, then, I exhort that petitions and prayers, requests and thanksgivings, be made for all men, for kings and all who are in authority,

Why: so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity.

zoidar · Mar 12, 2024

Hammster said:
Again, he says what and why.

What:
First of all, then, I exhort that petitions and prayers, requests and thanksgivings, be made for all men, for kings and all who are in authority,

Why: so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity.

Why is it good and acceptable to God who desires all men saved and come to the knowledge of truth, that we pray for all men?

You answer: "so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity."

So the reason God wants us to pray for all men, God who desires all men saved and come to the knowledge of truth is because so we may lead a tranguil and quiet life...?

bling · Mar 12, 2024

Hammster said:
He desires to save all sorts of men. If God wants to save each and every person, He can. He’s not wringing His hands hoping that at least some will believe.

We have been through this many times, God will not force His Love on you like with a shotgun wedding and God holding the shotgun, since the "love" you received would not be Godly type Love. The person has to just be willing to humbly accept pure charity as charity (even if it is motivated by selfish (sinful) motivation). Most people will just not humble themselves to the point of accepting charity.
Godly type Love cannot be placed in people instinctively (robotically) since that is not Godly type Love.

Hammster · Mar 12, 2024

zoidar said:
Why is it good and acceptable to God who desires all men saved and come to the knowledge of truth, that we pray for all men?

You answer: "so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity."

So the reason God wants us to pray for all men, God who desires all men saved and come to the knowledge of truth is because so we may lead a tranguil and quiet life...?

Isn’t that what it actually says?

Hammster · Mar 12, 2024

bling said:
We have been through this many times, God will not force His Love on you like with a shotgun wedding and God holding the shotgun, since the "love" you received would not be Godly type Love. The person has to just be willing to humbly accept pure charity as charity (even if it is motivated by selfish (sinful) motivation). Most people will just not humble themselves to the point of accepting charity.
Godly type Love cannot be placed in people instinctively (robotically) since that is not Godly type Love.

I have never once indicated that God forces His love on anyone, whatever that even means.

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