Propitiation - for entire world

[Nadiine]

K, while I was away at a family reunion, I had a long talk with my brother who's Calvanist -
he brought up Christ's propitiation for the elect... it got me wondering how this works exactly

If Christ died for the sins of the world like the verse says, then their sins ARE forgiven them right now - like ours are?
& then they end up paying for those sins at judgment becuz they didn't repent?

any insight into this? thanks

 

[Zecryphon]

How does your brother reconcile that view, with Christ's command to repent in Luke 13:5?

Luk 13:5 No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."

People use that rationale that your brother is espousing to defend Universalism. Following your brother's logic, Jesus is a liar, because He told them that repentance is neccessary to avoid perishing.

While it is true that Christ did pay for the sins of the world, I don't think we can take that to mean that the entire world is saved. We are saved by grace through faith, which is a gift of God. Repentance, which is God working in our lives through the Holy Spirit, to convict us of our sins, is a crucial part of justification. The whole world does not experience that simply because Christ died on a cross 2,000 years ago and rose to life three days later.

Christ gave us the Great Commission so that we as His followers would take the good news of the gospel to the world. When we are saved by grace through faith we have a new desire to go out and proclaim the good news. This is evidence of God working in our lives.

Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, Mat 28:20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

Faith comes by hearing. So we engage in evangelism.

Rom 10:13 For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." Rom 10:14 But how are they to call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? Rom 10:15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!" Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?" Rom 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

When a person responds to the gospel message and God's conviction of them in their hearts of their sin by repentance, they have been given the gift of faith by God, not by works.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

I could probably write for pages on this, but I won't do that because nobody would read it and it gets repetitive. There is so much that must happen in order for a person to be saved and justified before God. Christ's dying on that cross, made it possible for those to be saved and reconciled back to God through Christ, but that act alone did not save the world.

 

[Nadiine]

No, he wasn't saying the entire world is saved or will be saved.

He's a Calvanist; quite the contrary.

He was saying the sins of the lost aren't paid for.
I understood him to be saying that Christ died for the elect, not those who will be condemned.

I had a problem reconciling propitiation due to the verse that He died for the sins of the world - yet the lost still have sin they m ust pay for.
does that make better sense?
sorry if my OP wasn't clear

 

[Secundulus]

If one believes in predestined reprobation, then it is also necessary to believe that Christ did not die for the sins of all, but only for the sins of the elect.

 

[Zecryphon]

No, he wasn't saying the entire world is saved or will be saved.

He's a Calvanist; quite the contrary.

He was saying the sins of the lost aren't paid for.
I understood him to be saying that Christ died for the elect, not those who will be condemned.

I had a problem reconciling propitiation due to the verse that He died for the sins of the world - yet the lost still have sin they m ust pay for.
does that make better sense?
sorry if my OP wasn't clear

Nadiine, your OP was great. You were very clear that you were confused about a position held by a Calvinist because it doesn't jibe with the whole of scripture. I know he wasn't advocating Universalism. I was merely pointing out that Universalists use that verse in 1 John to defend their view. The Calvinist understanding or interpretation of that verse is problematic as well, since that verse does not say that Christ died only to pay for the sins of the elect. The verse clearly says that He died to pay for the sins of the world. He's making a distinction about who makes up the "world" that scripture doesn't support.

Here's the entry Thayer's has on the meaning of the original word that is translated as "world" in 1 John 2:2. The Calvinist view takes that last possible definition and it's problematic because it doesn't gel with what the whole of scripture declares.

G2889
κόσμος
kosmos
Thayer Definition:
1) an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government
2) ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars, ‘the heavenly hosts’, as the ornament of the heavens. 1Pe_3:3
3) the world, the universe
4) the circle of the earth, the earth
5) the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family
6) the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ
7) world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly
7a) the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages, pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ
8) any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort
8a) the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom_11:12 etc)
8b) of believers only, Joh_1:29; Joh_3:16; Joh_3:17; Joh_6:33; Joh_12:471Co_4:9; 2Co_5:19
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: probably from the base of G2865
Citing in TDNT: 3:868, 459

The Calvinist understanding greatly changes other key scriptures. For instance, apply this understanding to John 3:16-17.

 

[ReformedChapin]

No, he wasn't saying the entire world is saved or will be saved.

He's a Calvanist; quite the contrary.

He was saying the sins of the lost aren't paid for.
I understood him to be saying that Christ died for the elect, not those who will be condemned.

I had a problem reconciling propitiation due to the verse that He died for the sins of the world - yet the lost still have sin they m ust pay for.
does that make better sense?
sorry if my OP wasn't clear

Going by the most basic principle that scripture interprets scripture Calvinist intepret the world kosmos personhood or humanity. The problem with people is their hermenutics is that they assume kosmos or the world to mean every single person but it doesn't. For example I can say everyone in the world has a computer, but I don't literally mean every single person has a computer just a lot of people have a computer. To go in line with John Chapter 10

10:14 “I am the good shepherd. I 33 know my own34 and my own know me – 10:15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father – and I lay down my life 35 for 36 the sheep. 10:16 I have 37 other sheep that do not come from 38 this sheepfold. 39 I must bring them too, and they will listen to my voice, 40 so that 41 there will be one flock and 42 one shepherd


My sheep listen to my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 10:28 I give 67 them eternal life, and they will never perish; 68 no one will snatch 69 them from my hand. 10:29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, 70 and no one can snatch 71 them from my Father’s hand.

This verse clearly indicates that Christ knows his sheep and he regenerates them. His attonement is limited.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

God so loved the world.

Not

God so loved the elect.

 

[ReformedChapin]

Nadiine, your OP was great. You were very clear that you were confused about a position held by a Calvinist because it doesn't jibe with the whole of scripture. I know he wasn't advocating Universalism. I was merely pointing out that Universalists use that verse in 1 John to defend their view. The Calvinist understanding or interpretation of that verse is problematic as well, since that verse does not say that Christ died only to pay for the sins of the elect. The verse clearly says that He died to pay for the sins of the world. He's making a distinction about who makes up the "world" that scripture doesn't support.

Here's the entry Thayer's has on the meaning of the original word that is translated as "world" in 1 John 2:2. The Calvinist view takes that last possible definition and it's problematic because it doesn't gel with what the whole of scripture declares.

G2889
κόσμος
kosmos
Thayer Definition:
1) an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government
2) ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars, ‘the heavenly hosts’, as the ornament of the heavens. 1Pe_3:3
3) the world, the universe
4) the circle of the earth, the earth
5) the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family
6) the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ
7) world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly
7a) the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages, pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ
8) any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort
8a) the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom_11:12 etc)
8b) of believers only, Joh_1:29; Joh_3:16; Joh_3:17; Joh_6:33; Joh_12:471Co_4:9; 2Co_5:19
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: probably from the base of G2865
Citing in TDNT: 3:868, 459

The Calvinist understanding greatly changes other key scriptures. For instance, apply this understanding to John 3:16-17.

Actually you don't understand the reformed position as well. But I'll use your own definition to defend it. Since you posted the answer here.


8b) of believers only, Joh_1:29; Joh_3:16; Joh_3:17; Joh_6:33; Joh_12:471Co_4:9; 2Co_5:19


5) the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family

When God speaks of the world he refers to HUMANITY. "I saved humanity." Not in any one of those passages it states I died for every single person.

 

[Zecryphon]

Actually you don't understand the reformed position as well. But I'll use your own definition to defend it. Since you posted the answer here.


8b) of believers only, Joh_1:29; Joh_3:16; Joh_3:17; Joh_6:33; Joh_12:471Co_4:9; 2Co_5:19


5) the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family

When God speaks of the world he refers to HUMANITY. "I saved humanity threw you." Not in any one of those passages it states I died for every single person but instead I idead for humanity threw you and I died for them.

What I understand is that the Reformed position does not jibe with the whole of scripture. I also understand that definition 3 in Thayer's list of defintions, says "the world; the universe", not "the elect." That includes everything God made, doesn't it? How about definition 5? That says "the inhabitants of the earth; men; the human family." That to me says everybody on the earth. Definition 6 also refers to the whole world for it says: "the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God and hostile to the cause of Christ." That is every person on the planet.

 

[ReformedChapin]

What I understand is that the Reformed position does not jibe with the whole of scripture. I also understand that definition 3 in Thayer's list of defintions, says "the world; the universe", not "the elect." That includes everything God made, doesn't it? How about definition 5? That says "the inhabitants of the earth; men; the human family." That to me says everybody on the earth. Definition 6 also refers to the whole world for it says: "the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God and hostile to the cause of Christ." That is every person on the planet.

The reformed position "is not in line with scripture." Because you are infering wrong like Luther did. His theology had too many inconsistancies although he was a great man that kicked off the reformation. I own Bondage of the Will by him, it's a reformed favorite. I have studied your soteriology and it's the reason why I am not a Lutheran, they state that God saves the elect threw his own means but yet somehow everyone has an opportunity to be regenerated.

Again you are still infering the the world to be every single person. You have to anaylize scripture in its context. God alianated HUMANITY threw Adam that does imply every single person but when it speaks of regeneration he DIED for humany threw HIS ELECT which is inline with every passage of scripture.

If you want scripture passages regarding every single person try Romans 3

None are rightious, not one, all have fallen short.

 

[Secundulus]

604 By giving up his own Son for our sins, God manifests that his plan for us is one of benevolent love, prior to any merit on our part: "In this is love, not that we loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the expiation for our sins."408 God "shows his love for us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us."409
605 At the end of the parable of the lost sheep Jesus recalled that God's love excludes no one: "So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish."410 He affirms that he came "to give his life as a ransom for many"; this last term is not restrictive, but contrasts the whole of humanity with the unique person of the redeemer who hands himself over to save us.411 The Church, following the apostles, teaches that Christ died for all men without exception: "There is not, never has been, and never will be a single human being for whom Christ did not suffer."412

408 1 Jn 4:10; 4:19.
409 Rom 5:8.
410 Mt 18:14.
411 Mt 20:28; cf. Rom 5:18-19.
412 Council of Quiercy (853): DS 624; cf. 2 Cor 5:15; 1 Jn 2:2.

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p122a4p2.htm#II

 

[porterross]

God so loved the world.

Not

God so loved the elect.

Sista!

 

[Zecryphon]

The reformed position "is not in line with scripture." Because you are infering wrong like Luther did. His theology had too many inconsistancies although he was a great man that kicked off the reformation. I own Bondage of the Will by him, it's a reformed favorite. I have studied your soteriology and it's the reason why I am not a Lutheran, they state that God saves the elect threw his own means but yet somehow everyone has an opportunity to be regenerated.

Again you are still infering the the world to be every single person. You have to anaylize scripture in its context. God alianated HUMANITY threw Adam that does imply every single person but when it speaks of regeneration he DIED for humany threw HIS ELECT which is inline with every passage of scripture.

I am not inferring that on my own. Look at the other definitions in Thayer's list. They outright say it. You have to ignore those defintions to support your own understanding which is not supported by scripture as a whole. Your position is that when the Bible uses the word "world" it means only the elect. That is simply not true.

 

[ReformedChapin]

I am not inferring that on my own. Look at the other definitions in Thayer's list. They outright say it. You have to ignore those defintions to support your own understanding which is not supported by scripture as a whole. Your position is that when the Bible uses the word "world" it means only the elect. That is simply not true.

I said depending on the context based on the very definition you posted they mean the elect and/or humanity. You didn't even bother reading what I wrote.

 

[Zecryphon]

From your first post:

Going by the most basic principle that scripture interprets scripture Calvinist intepret the world kosmos personhood or humanity. The problem with people is their hermenutics is that they assume kosmos or the world to mean every single person but it doesn't.

If humanity doesn't mean every person on the planet, who does the word apply to?

From your next post in this thread we read: When God speaks of the world he refers to HUMANITY. "I saved humanity." Not in any one of those passages it states I died for every single person.

Again, what does the word humanity mean, if not "everyone who is a human being?" According to your logic, those who are not saved are not human. Yeah that makes ALOT of sense.

Next we read: God alianated HUMANITY threw Adam that does imply every single person but when it speaks of regeneration he DIED for humany threw HIS ELECT which is inline with every passage of scripture.

If you want scripture passages regarding every single person try Romans 3

None are rightious, not one, all have fallen short.

How about supporting any of this with some scripture. God did not alienate humanity through Adam. Adam alienated himself from God through sin. It seems you don't even grasp the basics of the Christian faith. Jesus did not die for humanity through the elect. That doesn't even make sense. You are right about one thing, all have indeed fallen short, and what is God's will? Let's go to John 3:16.

Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

The word that is translated as "whoever" in this verse is given below.

G3956
πᾶς
pas
Thayer Definition:
1) individually
1a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things,everything
2) collectively
2a) some of all types
Part of Speech: adjective
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: including all the forms of declension
Citing in TDNT: 5:886, 795

This definition of "whoever" does not speak about an elect, but about everybody. It is clearly God's wish that all be saved through Christ, not just the elect. You have been proven wrong. You can either accept the truth of scripture or hold on to your own flawed understanding. It's your choice.

 

[Nadiine]

God so loved the world.

Not

God so loved the elect.

So you're saying then, that right now every lost person's sins ARE forgiven by Jesus?
And then when they meet up with God at judgment, God is going to throw their FORGIVEN sins back onto them to pay for becuz they never repented?

This is what doesn't make sense to me.

If they're forgiven, THEY'RE GONE & removed becuz only Jesus' blood removes sin. Animal sacrifice didn't remove the sin, it merely covered over it.

So everyone has their sins forgiven right now becuz Jesus paid for all of them?
Why are they brought back before them at judgment and judged for them if they've been removed & paid for?
Then have to PAY for those sins in their own judgment ?? They're already paid for by Jesus.

I'm utterly confused on this

 

[Nadiine]

Going by the most basic principle that scripture interprets scripture Calvinist intepret the world kosmos personhood or humanity. The problem with people is their hermenutics is that they assume kosmos or the world to mean every single person but it doesn't. For example I can say everyone in the world has a computer, but I don't literally mean every single person has a computer just a lot of people have a computer. To go in line with John Chapter 10

10:14 “I am the good shepherd. I 33 know my own34 and my own know me – 10:15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father – and I lay down my life 35 for 36 the sheep. 10:16 I have 37 other sheep that do not come from 38 this sheepfold. 39 I must bring them too, and they will listen to my voice, 40 so that 41 there will be one flock and 42 one shepherd


My sheep listen to my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 10:28 I give 67 them eternal life, and they will never perish; 68 no one will snatch 69 them from my hand. 10:29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, 70 and no one can snatch 71 them from my Father’s hand.

This verse clearly indicates that Christ knows his sheep and he regenerates them. His attonement is limited.

hmm.
I never considered John 10 with dying for His sheep specifically.

interesting. thanks for that

I'll have to look into the Kosmos defs too

 

[Zecryphon]

So you're saying then, that right now every lost person's sins ARE forgiven by Jesus?
And then when they meet up with God at judgment, God is going to throw their FORGIVEN sins back onto them to pay for becuz they never repented?

This is what doesn't make sense to me.

If they're forgiven, THEY'RE GONE & removed becuz only Jesus' blood removes sin. Animal sacrifice didn't remove the sin, it merely covered over it.

So everyone has their sins forgiven right now becuz Jesus paid for all of them?
Why are they brought back before them at judgment and judged for them if they've been removed & paid for?
Then have to PAY for those sins in their own judgment ?? They're already paid for by Jesus.

I'm utterly confused on this

What we're saying is that there is more to justification and salvation than Jesus dying on a cross. The sacrifice of Christ on the cross satisfies the demands of God's law and allows humans to be restored to a right relationship with God the Father. But for a person to be justified, they must be given and receive the gift of faith. They must respond to God's offer in repentance. Not everybody in the world does.

The Reformed position seems to be that Jesus' sacrifice only paid for the sins of the elect. So when scripture says that Jesus died to pay for the sins of the world, well it doesn't really mean the world in the sense of everybody on the planet, it just means only a select few on the planet. If all that were needed for people to be saved was Christ dying on the cross, then there'd be zero need for evangelism. Why tell people about Christ and sin and repentance and what Jesus did? It's already done. All you have to do is just live your life however you want and when you die you go to heaven to be with God for eternity because Jesus died on a cross 2,000 years ago. That's not what scripture teaches.

 

[Nadiine]

What we're saying is that there is more to justification and salvation than Jesus dying on a cross. The sacrifice of Christ on the cross satisfies the demands of God's law and allows humans to be restored to a right relationship with God the Father.

K, that sounds possible.

But for a person to be justified, they must be given and receive the gift of faith. The must respond to God's offer in repentance. Not everybody in the world does.

Ok, so then this seems to depend on the original argument of Calvanist vs. non. And/or the definition of Kosmos that Newguy mentions.

The Reformed position seems to be that Jesus' sacrifice only paid for the sins of the elect.

K, but if He PAID for them, then they're paid.
How does He UNpay them? & if they're paid aren't they currently forgiven?

Can it not mean that they aren't paid for/removed/forgiven yet - but that He simply died for all who will come to Him?

So when scripture says that Jesus died to pay for the sins of the world, well it doesn't really mean the world in the sense of everybody on the planet, it just means only a select few on the planet.

John 10 does say sheep specifically. But technically sheep are included
?
I wish things could more clearly defined sometimes.

If all that were needed for people to be saved was Christ dying on the cross, then there'd be zero need for evangelism. Why tell people about Christ and sin and repentance and what Jesus did? It's already done. All you have to do is just live your life however you want and when you die you go to heaven to be with God for eternity because Jesus died on a cross 2,000 years ago. That's not what scripture teaches

I'm really not going at "salvation" itself thru this thread.
I'm specifically asking about sins being "paid" for & how this process works (if scripture even explains it) .
I know of no Calvanists advocating Universalism & I surely don't accept it & neither do any Christians I know.

My issue is more in what does PAID mean & how are they paid for the lost. I'm not seeking a Calvinist/Arminian focus - or Universalist.

 

[Zecryphon]

Ok, so then this seems to depend on the original argument of Calvanist vs. non. And/or the definition of Kosmos that Newguy mentions.

Okay he's defined "kosmos" as personhood or humanity. But then he turns around and says that even though this word can mean humanity, that doesn't mean Jesus died for the sin of every single person. If Jesus died to pay for the sins of humanity, that does mean every single person who is a human being. He has to redefine the word humanity to fit this theology. That's very troublesome.

The Reformed position seems to be that Jesus' sacrifice only paid for the sins of the elect.
​

K, but if He PAID for them, then they're paid.
How does He UNpay them? & if they're paid aren't they currently forgiven?

He doesn't unpay them. What happens is that a person who dies who has not been justified, is punished for their sins. Not just the sinful nature they inherited from Adam, but all the sins they themselves committed in their lifetime. A lifetime of sin and no repentance for them.

Ask yourself this , when are we cleansed of our sins? Are we cleansed the minute we're born? Well, we'd have to be, because Jesus paid for our sins centuries before we were born by dying on the cross. So we can't be born in sin and separated from God. But that's what the scripture says is the case.

Can it not mean that they aren't paid for/removed/forgiven yet - but that He simply died for all who will come to Him?

We are cleansed of our sins when God gives us the gift of faith and we respond in repentance to that gift, because we have been given a new nature, with a new set of desires.

So when scripture says that Jesus died to pay for the sins of the world, well it doesn't really mean the world in the sense of everybody on the planet, it just means only a select few on the planet.
​

John 10 does say sheep specifically. But technically sheep are included
?
I wish things could more clearly defined sometimes.

Who was Jesus the promised savior for? It wasn't originally the Gentile. The Gentiles were folded into the promise later on. He is the savior for the nation of Israel. It was to Israel that He was promised as messiah. To whom was Jesus speaking when He said those words, if not the Jews? Paul is the one that took the message to the Gentiles.

If all that were needed for people to be saved was Christ dying on the cross, then there'd be zero need for evangelism. Why tell people about Christ and sin and repentance and what Jesus did? It's already done. All you have to do is just live your life however you want and when you die you go to heaven to be with God for eternity because Jesus died on a cross 2,000 years ago. That's not what scripture teaches
​

I'm really not going at "salvation" itself thru this thread.
I'm specifically asking about sins being "paid" for & how this process works (if scripture even explains it) .
I know of no Calvanists advocating Universalism & I surely don't accept it & neither do any Christians I know.

I never said the Calvnists did advocate Univeralism. I said that the verse in 1 John is used by Universalists to defend their position. Why? Because it says that Christ died for the sins of the world. Therefore in the mind of the Universalist, everyone is saved.

My issue is more in what does PAID mean & how are they paid for the lost. I'm not seeking a Calvinist/Arminian focus - or Universalist.

They are paid for by Christ's shed blood. That's always been the crucial element in a sin offering. Now if you're asking how shedding blood cleanses sin, I don't know. I've never been able to answer that question. Think of it like this. We're all sinners who have a debt with God. The payment for sin has been provided. All that is needed is for your name to be written in the Lamb's Book of Life. How does that happen? Through justification by faith in Christ for the forgiveness of sins.