Proof that the Bible is NOT corrupted and is reliable.

S Walch · Jan 10, 2005

Well, then we have a problem here don't we.

You both have said you've searched for the Truth.

You and your husband say that Islam is the truth - where as NOTW says that Christianity is the truth.

The law of logic would therefore conclude that

a) You and your husband are lying, and Islam isn't the truth but NOTW is telling the truth and christianity is the truth.

b) You and your husband are correct, so Islam is the truth, and NOTW is lying and chritianity isn't the truth.

c) All of you are lying and neither Christianity nor Islam is the truth.

So it's no wonder people get confused as to whether what is truth and what isn't.

rahma · Jan 10, 2005

S Walch said:
Well, then we have a problem here don't we.

You both have said you've searched for the Truth.

You and your husband say that Islam is the truth - where as NOTW says that Christianity is the truth.

The law of logic would therefore conclude that

a) You and your husband are lying, and Islam isn't the truth but NOTW is telling the truth and christianity is the truth.

Why does either of us have to be lying? In my heart, with my faith, I believe Islam is the truth. In NOTW's heart, with his faith, he believes Christianity is the truth. One is not lying if they legitimately believe something is true, even if they are wrong.

Say I am colorblind. I look at an apple and see gray. With my view of the world, the apple actually is grey. I am not lying by saying the apple is gray. That is mearly how I perceive the apple and what I know to be true.

Either party, be it my husband and I or NOTW, believe the apple is what it is, because of how we view things. Only God really knows what color the apple is, and when we die, we will find out what really was the truth.

S Walch · Jan 10, 2005

But believing that a lie is truth doesn't make it truth whether you believe it in your heart or not.

The truth is the truth - a lie is a lie.

Either Islam is a lie and christianity is the truth, or Christianity is a lie and Islam is the truth.

Or they're both lies.

Two things that contradict can be lies - but two things that contradict can't be truth.

rahma · Jan 10, 2005

Of course. However, if one is ignorant of the fullness of the truth (and we all really are, becasue we are not God), then they are mearly ignorant, not lying. I am quibbling over your choice of words, not arguing that there can be more than one truth.

Allahu Alem. InshaAllah one day we will all know who is our creator and bow before Him.

peaceful soul · Jan 10, 2005

rahma said:
Of course. However, if one is ignorant of the fullness of the truth (and we all really are, becasue we are not God), then they are mearly ignorant, not lying. I am quibbling over your choice of words, not arguing that there can be more than one truth.

Allahu Alem. InshaAllah one day we will all know who is our creator and bow before Him.

Ignorance is of no excuse before God. How are you going to reconcile that fact? One way or another, God reveals Himself to all of us; so, there is no true ignorance of Him. We only see it that way because we are blind to the spiritual truth of God. Truth is not what you perceive. That is relativism. God does not allow each person to bring his or her own view of things to the table and just let them follow Him in their own way. We have to be conformed to God, and I do not see that happening by choosing a path that caters to one's perception. Perception is relative and God is not relative. At some point, your perception has to be changed spiritually and some means of verifying that has to be incorporated into the transformation.

We are not ignorant of God because we are not God. It is because we are born with a sinful nature. That is what blinds us. Our nature is one of selfishness, which is not of God. Our selfishness is what causes us to see ourselves rather than God. It is not until our eyes are opened by God that we can start to see our shortcommings and understand what we have been deprived of - God.

There is only one truth, and God posesses it. Religion teaches you that you must search for it, but Christianity teaches that you must allow God to bear it upon you. God has to take your hand and lead you Himself. You may not think that you are lying, but satan knows how to make a liar of you. He feeds you just enough information to convince you that what you see is that apple and it is the good apple or he may convince you that it does not matter what apple you see or choose just as long as you like it. Deception!

S Walch · Jan 10, 2005

rahma said:
not arguing that there can be more than one truth.

No, I did not say that at all.

There is only one truth.

either something is true, or it's not.

There can't be more than one true God and his characteristics.

Fire · Jan 10, 2005

S Walch said:
There can't be more than one true God and his characteristics.

The problem is that "God" refers to several different things.

God can mean Allah, a name for the god of Abraham, especially for Muslims.
God can mean theos, a divine or godlike being.
God can mean elohim, a group of divine or godlike beings.
God can mean theios, the holy trinity, a theory based on three persons who are of the same substance but are of a different nature from each other, especially for Christians.

Foon Nerfdahl · Jan 10, 2005

S Walch said:
But believing that a lie is truth doesn't make it truth whether you believe it in your heart or not.

The truth is the truth - a lie is a lie.

Either Islam is a lie and christianity is the truth, or Christianity is a lie and Islam is the truth.

Or they're both lies.

Two things that contradict can be lies - but two things that contradict can't be truth.

However, two things can share some basic truths and also contain many lies.

That's Christianity and Islam today.

The basic foundations are this: God loves us and wants us to live lives of mercy, justice and compassion.

That is the God of Islam and Christianity and Judaism and all the other religions.

That God also wants our love.

It's as simple and as complex as that.

Be a friend of God and, as much as it depends on you, live a life of mercy, justice and compassion.

If your heart is true, you will live.

Fire · Jan 10, 2005

S Walch said:
But believing that a lie is truth doesn't make it truth whether you believe it in your heart or not.

The truth is the truth - a lie is a lie.

Yes, definitely.

Either Islam is a lie and christianity is the truth, or Christianity is a lie and Islam is the truth.

Or they're both lies.

Two things that contradict can be lies - but two things that contradict can't be truth.

Another possibility is that Christianity is a mixture of truth and lies.

balleballe · Jan 11, 2005

Fire said:
The question is not whether the Bible is inerrant but rather what is the cause of the errors. Jesus did not die on the cross. Judas was transformed and took his place.

i don't understand how you get this idea from scriptures.who transformed judas.

balleballe · Jan 11, 2005

another point..
if bible is proved corrupt then this would make quran also corrupt..

peaceful soul · Jan 11, 2005

Fire said:
The problem is that "God" refers to several different things.

God can mean Allah, a name for the god of Abraham, especially for Muslims.
God can mean theos, a divine or godlike being.
God can mean elohim, a group of divine or godlike beings.
God can mean theios, the holy trinity, a theory based on three persons who are of the same substance but are of a different nature from each other, especially for Christians.

Unfortunately for you, the Bible always says that God is ONE. We know that words can mean many things, but we have to look at the context to determine what they truly mean. You are trying to sidestep the issue by presenting possibilities and likelihoods of the context not being as we understand it.

Fire · Jan 11, 2005

peaceful soul said:
Unfortunately for you, the Bible always says that God is ONE.

Deuteronomy 6:4
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Hear, Israel: Yahweh is our God; Yahweh is one:[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] WEB[/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah:[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] ASV[/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Give ear, O Israel: the Lord our God is one Lord:[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] BBE[/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Hear, Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah;[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] DBY[/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] KJV[/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Hear, O Israel: the LORD our God is one LORD:[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] WBS[/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]HEAR, O ISRAEL: THE LORD OUR GOD, THE LORD IS ONE.[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] JPS[/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God 'is' one Jehovah;[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] YLT

But I prefer "Hear, O Israel, YHWH is our God; YHWH is One."
[/font]

We know that words can mean many things, but we have to look at the context to determine what they truly mean. You are trying to sidestep the issue by presenting possibilities and likelihoods of the context not being as we understand it.

What issue do you think that I am trying to sidetep?

peaceful soul · Jan 11, 2005

Fire said:
Deuteronomy 6:4
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Hear, Israel: Yahweh is our God; Yahweh is one:[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] WEB[/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah:[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] ASV[/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Give ear, O Israel: the Lord our God is one Lord:[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] BBE[/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Hear, Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah;[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] DBY[/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] KJV[/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Hear, O Israel: the LORD our God is one LORD:[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] WBS[/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]HEAR, O ISRAEL: THE LORD OUR GOD, THE LORD IS ONE.[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] JPS[/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God 'is' one Jehovah;[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] YLT

But I prefer "Hear, O Israel, YHWH is our God; YHWH is One."
[/font]

What issue do you think that I am trying to sidetep?

You are saying that one word means many things and not trying to see the meaning with the context of the scriptures it is contained within. Are we clear now?

Fire · Jan 11, 2005

peaceful soul said:
You are saying that one word means many things and not trying to see the meaning with the context of the scriptures it is contained within. Are we clear now?

No, we are not.

You claimed that I was not trying to see the meaning in context, which I presume is Deuteronomy 6:4.
In that context, God means Elohim, which means a group of divine beings (gods, angels, judges, etc).

What do you think the meaning of "God" is within that context?

peaceful soul · Jan 11, 2005

Fire said:
No, we are not.

You claimed that I was not trying to see the meaning in context, which I presume is Deuteronomy 6:4.
In that context, God means Elohim, which means a group of divine beings (gods, angels, judges, etc).

What do you think the meaning of "God" is within that context?

In context, does judges, angels, or gods fit? What does "I" in verse 6 refer to? Also, look at verses 15.16, and 17. If what you say is true and all other definitions are excluded, then explain the references that say I, his, him and God. Where does it say your gods, his gods, or their gods?? As you see, it says in verse 6 that God is "one". Now does that mean to you "one gods" or many gods acting as one? We have to look at what "one" means and take into account how it is used throughout that entire section of scripture. We also have to note if the established meaning ever changes from a singular "one" to a plural "one" or vice versa. I do not see that one means as you suggest. I will look up some possibilities in some dicitonaries and get back to this later.

BTW: I was not necessarily referring to the verse that you quoted; but it will suffice for now.

Fire · Jan 11, 2005

peaceful soul said:
Unfortunately for you, the Bible always says that God is ONE.

Fire said:
You claimed that I was not trying to see the meaning in context, which I presume is Deuteronomy 6:4.
In that context, God means Elohim, which means a group of divine beings (gods, angels, judges, etc).

You are right to look at the context for Deuternomy 6:4.
I assumed that because Deuteronomy was from the OT the word God meant Elohim. However, Deuteronomy 6:4 proves to be an exception to the rule as the Hebrew word that is rendered as God in that verse is not Elohim, but a word which is derived from the singular root of 'Eloah'.

The point that I hope I am making here is that the rules for determining the meaning of the word "God" are not straightforward, therefore use of the word "God" in general language should be avoided when an alternate meaning would affect the sense of the idea.

morningstar2651 · Jan 11, 2005

Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

S Walch · Jan 11, 2005

Angels know the difference between good and evil

Fire · Jan 11, 2005

balleballe said:
another point..
if bible is proved corrupt then this would make quran also corrupt..

Not so. The Qu'ran does not mention the writings of Paul.
If a lying spirit met Paul on the road to Damascus and claimed to be Jesus, this would not affect the integrity of the Qu'ran at all.

Proof that the Bible is NOT corrupted and is reliable.

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