Profanity

Michelina · Oct 27, 2004

JJM said:
Also is the way I used it in the above paragraph as referring to itself evil? If not, then we can't say that it is always evil. And if God didn't create it then who did? I thought it was doctrine that God created everything so if God didn’t create it then doesn't that mean it doesn't really exist?

God didn't create that word, JJM. There are zillions of things created by man and this is one of them. You can say that anything created by God is intrinsically (ontologically) good but you can't say that about man's creations.

Take the degrading word for a Jewish person k---. This word created by men is profanity in the larger definition of the word.

Words don't really exist on their own. They are spoken or written man-made symbols of man-made or Divinely created realities. Their worth lays in what we intend when we speak them. But usage does matter. We don't use certain words in polite society for that reason. There is a social dimension to the meaning and usage of words.

bigsierra · Oct 28, 2004

Many cuss type words don't have any meaning at all nowadays to most people using them. People that don't use them all remember what they mean though. Just because someone doesn't use it in a way that is profane, to them, doesn't mean it's not.
Think about using God's name in vain. What could be more vain than using it and not even realizing it. If you ask someone who says G-- all the time, most would say, "I don't even think about it. It's just a habit." What could be more vain? Words without meaning is foolish and foolish is is one of the definitions of vain.

JJM · Oct 28, 2004

bigsierra said:
Many cuss type words don't have any meaning at all nowadays to most people using them. People that don't use them all remember what they mean though. Just because someone doesn't use it in a way that is profane, to them, doesn't mean it's not.
Think about using God's name in vain. What could be more vain than using it and not even realizing it. If you ask someone who says G-- all the time, most would say, "I don't even think about it. It's just a habit." What could be more vain? Words without meaning is foolish and foolish is is one of the definitions of vain.

I agree with you but what I'm saying is that if God's name can be used in a way that isn't profane such as in a prayer or as I just have in this sentence then no one should have a problem with it and they don't. So why with these other words is it always considered bad even if used in a good (or at least not bad) way?

Also because people realize that these other words that are considered bad but aren't always used in bad ways they loose all respect for the moral laws of language and thus use the Lords name in vain more because If they don't see a problem with one or two words that our culture has deemed profanity they begin to assume that that no words or circumstances that are deemed profanity actually are. I know this is a trap I fell into a few years ago however if people had explained that all words werent acceptable in certain circumstances and all where in others I dont think I would have spent nearly two year of my life using Gods name in vain and also very mean.

JaneKaty13 · Oct 28, 2004

Bigsierra is so right! wow, that's exactly what I wanted to say but I couldn't find the right words. Sometimes when I hurt myself I say jeez or something, but not often. But I've heard some pretty bad curses. Do you think blasphemy is worse, or just regular cursing is worse? I think it says in Ephesians that blasphemy is worse.

Michelina · Oct 28, 2004

JJM said:
I agree with you but what I'm saying is that if God's name can be used in a way that isn't profane such as in a prayer or as I just have in this sentence then no one should have a problem with it and they don't. So why with these other words is it always considered bad even if used in a good (or at least not bad) way?

Also because people realize that these other words that are considered bad but aren't always used in bad ways they lose all respect for the moral laws of language and thus use the Lord's name in vain more because If they don't see a problem with one or two words that our culture has deemed profanity they begin to assume that that no words or circumstances that are deemed profanity actually are. I know this is a trap I fell into a few years ago however if people had explained that all words weren’t acceptable in certain circumstances and all where in others I don’t think I would have spent nearly two year of my life using Gods name in vain and also very mean.

JJM , you keep on insisting that your perspective is the way to look at this question but, as a Christian, you are called to a much higher standard. The injunctions of the New Law are clearly stated in the NT. Irenaeus cited Eph 5: 1-4 and Col 4:5-6 and also mentioned Ecclesiasticus. These address the question for Christians. I understand your 'philosophical' questions but that attitutude easily leads into the trap in which you were once caught.

Words are conventions. Their meaning is not defined by any individual but by the society in which he lives. Some words "mean" things in some societies that are considered wrong and morally degraded (and degrading). Even for pagans, this rule requires some level of refraining from profanity. For Christians, however, a much higher standard is required because you have received a much higher dignity from God.

JJM · Oct 28, 2004

Michelina said:
JJM , you keep on insisting that your perspective is the way to look at this question but, as a Christian, you are called to a much higher standard. The injunctions of the New Law are clearly stated in the NT. Irenaeus cited Eph 5: 1-4 and Col 4:5-6 and also mentioned Ecclesiasticus. These address the question for Christians. I understand your 'philosophical' questions but that attitutude easily leads into the trap in which you were once caught.

Words are conventions. Their meaning is not defined by any individual but by the society in which he lives. Some words "mean" things in some societies that are considered wrong and morally degraded (and degrading). Even for pagans, this rule requires some level of refraining from profanity. For Christians, however, a much higher standard is required because you have received a much higher dignity from God.

I'm sorry But I don't think that our perspectives differ all that much. I'm saying that bad language shouldn't be used your saying bad language shouldn't be used. What I'm asking is what is bad language but you keep responding to me bad language shouldnt be used. This is something I've already established and I don't need to here it because I agree. I've looked over all the bible verses and they all consistently say that bad language is bad and shouldn't be used but not what bad language is. So what is the perspective I'm insisting on. The only thing I can think of is I'm saying that a words use can only be bad not the words itself. While you seem to be saying that certain words can be bad no matter how their used. If that truly is the case then I'm asking what evidence is there of this? Because I think it is our society that are determining what words these are and our society changes because it is part of the City of Man (Ex: 100 some years ago saying the word leg in the presence of a woman was considered immoral. Thus the term drumsticks) but how we view what is bad language should be part of the city of God and thus unchanging. So Im willing to look at your point of view but I'd like some evidence which is basically what I've been asking of the whole time. However all Im continuously getting is evidence supporting a statement I agree with.

Oh and I realize this paragraph sounds a little rude but I dont mean for it to be it is just coming off that way.

Irenaeus · Oct 28, 2004

Profanity, or bad language, is all that which is offensive to our neighbor, immodest, uncourteous, etc..that which does not edify your soul or someone elses soul, either indirectly or directly. This corresponds directly to God's law.

Don't let the more puritanical things like mentioning legs in the presence of a woman fool you. There is the moral law, and there is scrupulosity. The example you brought up would be an example of the latter.

Paul says that bad language is "Obscene language," he also mentions "foolish talking" (gossip, idle chatter) and coarse joking (dirty jokes).

JJM · Oct 28, 2004

Irenaeus said:
Profanity, or bad language, is all that which is offensive to our neighbor, immodest, uncourteous, etc..that which does not edify your soul or someone elses soul, either indirectly or directly. This corresponds directly to God's law.

Don't let the more puritanical things like mentioning legs in the presence of a woman fool you. There is the moral law, and there is scrupulosity. The example you brought up would be an example of the latter.

Paul says that bad language is "Obscene language," he also mentions "foolish talking" (gossip, idle chatter) and coarse joking (dirty jokes).

Thanks . Let me see if I understand. Youre saying that any Speaking that doesn't improve us in some way or that offends someone is profanity.

Now does this mean that any conversation that doesn't make us closer to God or more intelligent shouldn't be used? Therefore any speaking outside of relevant discussion regarding information or prayer is sinful. This is how things are run in a Benedict monastery is it not. I guess I can understand that. But by this you are also saying that posts on this website such as this one http://www.christianforums.com/t721995-what-song-is-playing-on-your-speakers-right-now.html are sinful.

Also if I was to see a person eating a bunch of grapes during mass and then that person was about to go receive communion. This means that I defiantly shouldn't say anything to this person because it could be offending to them for me to tell them that they are supposed to not eat for an hour before receiving communion. Also Jesus said some things that offended Pharisees but they obviously werent profanity because they Jesus said them so how do you understand that?

Michelina · Oct 28, 2004

JJM said:
The only thing I can think of is I'm saying that a word’s use can only be bad not the words itself. While you seem to be saying that certain words can be bad no matter how they're used

I have pointed out that words are coventions, spoken or written symbols of realities. They are morally neutral since they do not really exist on their own and have meaning in the intent of the speaker. I have also pointed out that society decides their meanings and which words are acceptable or unacceptable. There are, however, words that are always unacceptable in most settings. Racist words are an example of that. So are words which denigrate sacred things, like the f word you mentioned.

Since you are comitted to speaking as a Christian, there is no practical problem here. You began by saying that a word might be good in itself. I pointed out that men create words, not God, and that the goodness or badness of a word is determined by intent and by how society defines and regards that word. I really don't see a basis for disagreement with that.

Oh and I realize this paragraph sounds a little rude but I don’t mean for it to be it is just coming off that way.

No problem, JJM. I am not unsympathetic to your philosophical question and I have tried to respond to it. As a Christian, you do not use profanity. You wrote that you had developed a habit of 'profanity' but are now free of it. Is this somehow related to your question?

Are we transmitting on the same frequency?

I would add: James 3 speaks volumes about the importance of words. When people speak about our being made 'in the image and likeness of God', they usually think in terms of intellect and will. But there is another Divine quality that we have: the ability to communicate rational thought. Words are important. There is only one Eternal Word, Jesus. But there are other angelic and human words that spring forth from the Holy Spirit in our spirits. These are the words we should speak.

Profanity, or bad language, is all that which is offensive to our neighbor, immodest, uncourteous, etc..that which does not edify your soul or someone elses soul, either indirectly or directly. This corresponds directly to God's law.

Miss Shelby · Oct 28, 2004

JJM said:
Does the church specifically state what profanity is in the catechism?

Mother Teresa once said something like, 'Rember it's the same tongue that you receive the Lord with that you spout your naughty words with' or something to that effect, obviously that's a paraphrase but she did say something like that.

Michelle

Irenaeus · Oct 28, 2004

Miss Shelby

In scripture, St. James says, "salt water and fresh water cannot come from the same spring" in regards to the tongue.

Blessed Teresa captures that spirit completely.

Michelina · Oct 28, 2004

Does the church specifically state what profanity is in the catechism?

I don't think so, JJM. I have checked, thanks to you!

Irenaeus · Oct 28, 2004

Also, JJM,

Notice how I said our words must glorify God explicitly or implicitly. Either we glorify him with our conversation by the pious mentioning of his name, or we glorify him by avoiding gossip, profanity, blasphemy, etc.

Just like we may have temperance with food and thus glorify God; one way is to avoid gluttony itself, another way is to abstain or to fast.

Michelina · Oct 28, 2004

Miss Shelby said:
Mother Teresa once said something like, 'Rember it's the same tongue that you receive the Lord with that you spout your naughty words with' or something to that effect, obviously that's a paraphrase but she did say something like that. Michelle

That's how all Christians should see it.

JJM · Oct 28, 2004

Michelina said:
I have pointed out that words are coventions, spoken or written symbols of realities. They are morally neutral since they do not really exist on their own and have meaning in the intent of the speaker. I have also pointed out that society decides their meanings and which words are acceptable or unacceptable. There are, however, words that are always unacceptable in most settings. Racist words are an example of that. So are words which denigrate sacred things, like the f word you mentioned.

Since you are comitted to speaking as a Christian, there is no practical problem here. You began by saying that a word might be good in itself. I pointed out that men create words, not God, and that the goodness or badness of a word is determined by intent and by how society defines and regards that word. I really don't see a basis for disagreement with that.

No problem, JJM. I am not unsympathetic to your philosophical question and I have tried to respond to it. As a Christian, you do not use profanity. You wrote that you had developed a habit of 'profanity' but are now free of it. Is this somehow related to your question?

Are we transmitting on the same frequency?

I would add: James 3 speaks volumes about the importance of words. When people speak about our being made 'in the image and likeness of God', they usually think in terms of intellect and will. But there is another Divine quality that we have: the ability to communicate rational thought. Words are important. There is only one Eternal Word, Jesus. But there are other angelic and human words that spring forth from the Holy Spirit in our spirits. These are the words we should speak.

Thank you for responding. Now let me see if fully understand you. Youre saying that Words are a creation of man and thus are morally neutral and it is only through their use that they can become good or evil. However because they are a creation of man they only become moral or unmoral by how they are used. And that some words all always used in an immoral way.

I agree with a lot of this. But there are a few things I disagree with. Paragraph 293 of the catechism shows that all thing where created by God so to say that man created anything without God must be wrong. So because words exist they must be a creation of God. And then must be inherently good because God created all thing good something we see in genesis. Now this leads to me think that the only way a word can be immoral is if it is corrupted and things created by god are corrupted by inappropriate use of them. SO a word is by nature good until it is used in a bad way. As apposed to neutral and is only made moral or immoral by how it is used. But that is really irrelevant because if used in a good way it stays good and used in a bad way it becomes bad which is basically something we agree on. I agree that some words are usually used in immoral ways but all word can be used in reference to themselves thus they cant always be used in a moral way. Does what I say make sense? Therefore if the f word can be used in a way that isnt immoral then it isnt always bad. So what do you think makes a word used in an immoral way?

JJM · Oct 28, 2004

Irenaeus said:
Also, JJM,

Notice how I said our words must glorify God explicitly or implicitly. Either we glorify him with our conversation by the pious mentioning of his name, or we glorify him by avoiding gossip, profanity, blasphemy, etc.

Just like we may have temperance with food and thus glorify God; one way is to avoid gluttony itself, another way is to abstain or to fast.

Yes either we use profanity (note Gossip and blasphemy are included in profanity) or we dont and using it is wrong, this has been established, but that doesn't change what you said profanity was. Is how I interpreted what you said profanity was correctly?

Because now you are simply saying that we shouldn't speak when it isn't nessicary, but before you added and when it offends someone has you veiw changed?

JJM · Oct 28, 2004

I know this is my third post in a row but I've got to do my homework now. I'd appreciate any responses but if I don't get off now my homework will never be completed. Thank to everyone.

Michelina · Oct 28, 2004

JJM said:
Thank you for responding. Now let me see if fully understand you. You’re saying that Words are a creation of man and thus are morally neutral and it is only through their use that they can become good or evil. However because they are a creation of man they only become moral or unmoral by how they are used. And that some words all always used in an immoral way.

Agreed.

I agree with a lot of this. But there are a few things I disagree with. Paragraph 293 of the Catechism shows that all things where created by God, so to say that man created anything without God must be wrong.

False, JJM. God created the capacity to speak just as He created free will. Man has a long history of misusing both.

So because words exist they must be a creation of God.

False, men create words. God created our capacity to make and use words. To attribute to words the goodness of those things He created is like trying to say all acts are good because God created the free will of humans and therefor all choices of the free will are good. Ergo, sins are good?

And then must be inherently good because God created all things good something we see in genesis. Now this leads to me think that the only way a word can be immoral is if it is corrupted and things created by god are corrupted by inappropriate use of them. SO a word is by nature good until it is used in a bad way. As apposed to neutral and is only made moral or immoral by how it is used. But that is really irrelevant because if used in a good way it stays good and used in a bad way it becomes bad which is basically something we agree on. I agree that some words are usually used in immoral ways but all word can be used in reference to themselves thus they can’t always be used in a moral way. Does what I say make sense? Therefore if the f word can be used in a way that isn’t immoral then it isn’t always bad. So what do you think makes a word used in an immoral way?

I deny your major, JJM. That's debating language for saying your first premise is wrong. God only "created" one word, Jesus. Even when He said "I am Who am", He was using human-created Hebrew words.

Where do you get the idea that God created human words?

That He created the human capacity to communicate is obvious. But the creation of human words cannot be ascribed to Him.

JJM · Oct 28, 2004

Michelina said:
Agreed.

False, JJM. God created the capacity to speak just as He created free will. Man has a long history of misusing both.

False, men create words. God created our capacity to make and use words. To attribute to words the goodness of those things He created is like trying to say all acts are good because God created the free will of humans and therefor all choices of the free will are good. Ergo, sins are good?

Well the way I was looking at it was that sin is a word for the corruption of freewill therefore freewill is Good and sin is in effect freewill. However the reason sin isnt good is because it refers to only that which had been but I see your point I'll have to think about this.

Michelina said:
I deny your major, JJM. That's debating language for saying your first premise is wrong. God only "created" one word, Jesus. Even when He said "I am Who am", He was using human-created Hebrew words.

Where do you get the idea that God created human words?

That He created the human capacity to communicate is obvious. But the creation of human words cannot be ascribed to Him.

I got the idea that God created Human words because human word exist and God created all in existence. But like I said I am seeing your point. However this is truly irrelevant because in both ways at which we looked at it we concluded that words become bad when they are used in bad ways did we not? And that when a word is used in a good way it is good. So the question is what are bad ways a word can be used? Do you have any Ideas?

Carrye · Oct 28, 2004

JJM said:
Well the way I was looking at it was that sin is a word for the corruption of freewill therefore freewill is Good and sin is in effect freewill.

I would suggest that you do as you've said, and take a second look at the definition of sin. Sin is not a corruption of the will per se, but is the will used for bad things. The will remains good, but the actions that result from the will can be bad.

I got the idea that God created Human words because human word exist and God created all in existence. But like I said I am seeing your point. However this is truly irrelevant because in both ways at which we looked at it we concluded that words become bad when they are used in bad ways did we not?

It may be something you want to keep in the back of your mind for other discussions. God didn't create all things in the sense that you're using the word. In this instance as Michelina said, God gave us the capacity for language. In other cases, something that appears created such as evil, is really a privation (a complete lacking, for lack of a better phrase) of good. Sin would be another example.

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