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Problems with incense?

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MariaRegina

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These are some Yahoo emails I've accumulated on incense and how to cure the acrid smoke problem. If you have any suggestions for burning pleasant fragrances unto the Lord, by all means do post them here.

Hello Again

You are right the charcoal smoke is a real problem as well as a dirty kadylo or putting the incense on the coals directly. Our priest learned from the Russians in Toronto to put the incense on the side of the characoal and the heats melts, creates the odour and some (well enough smoke but not that acrid burning) smoke.

My experience is rather to the contrary. The acrid scent you sometimes get at the "tail-end" of a lump of incense is always there; it's just usually blended with the sweeter scent you burn the incense for in the first place and is unnoticeable. All you accomplish by placing the incense to the side of the charcoal is to delay the onset of the acridity. Admittedly, possibly until the next time you need incense so that it remains masked, but then you've got smoke coming out all the time and it never really clears out. If the smoke is a problem, then this won't help much.

In response to some of the other posts:

A dirty censer is almost never a problem if your charcoal is hot enough, because the trouble really comes from unburned residue accumulating inside and occasionally coming into contact with the fresher charcoal. This not a problem I've ever actually had. We're in the habit of emptying out the censer before every service, and I always put the incense directly on the charcoal so there's never any unburned residue to speak of.

There's incenses and then there's incenses, and they can all be quite different. The one that's most likely to choke the choir in my experience is the "Athonite" style, which is frankincense or some other resin mixed with essential oils and cut into little rectangles. The rose scented incenses are all in this style. It tends to be quite heavy and is rather acrid toward the end. The pieces also burn off too quickly to do a great censing of the whole church, so one tends to use too much in that situation.

There's one we use that we get from a local RC church supply house that's a blend of various plant resins. I *think* it's all natural, but I have to admit I don't really know what's in it. It's very sweet, if a tad heavy, when freshly burning, but the residue is *very* acrid. I think it may be myrrh or something. I tend to put that in the censer only when we need a nice amount of smoke fairly quickly. With this one, some of the resins will tend to melt and can actually put out the charcoal if you use too much.

In my experience, nothing is more pleasant than fresh, pure Arabian frankincense of the hightest quality. (Hojari) I order it direct from Oman here: http://www.soukofoman.com [Edit by chanter: a muslin site :sigh: ]Apparently there's a bit of a shortage at the moment; prices have been better than this in the past. When fresh, it smells almost like pine or fir when first burning even before you see the smoke. When it gets a bit older, the initial scent will turn more towards citrus. The smoke is never very heavy, never very acrid, and since the resin comes in chunks of various sizes you can use whatever size is appropriate for your immediate needs.

Most charcoal has no scent to speak of. If it's burning properly it should produce no visible smoke on its own. (Think of a backyard barbecue. It makes smoke when you first light it, but there's none left by the time the coals are ready to cook on. You get smoke when you're cooking, but that's from burning fat dripping off the meat.) It'll put off some carbon monoxide, which is odorless and not harmful in small quantities in a well-ventilated area. Self-lighting charcoal always smells unpleasant when you first light it, but that smell doesn't usually linger. Sometimes if the charcoal has not been lit well enough ahead of time some of the saltpeter will still be burning off as the first censing of the service progresses. This will also produce an unpleasant scent, as well as visible sparks. The worst of the lot I've found was some that came from Greece, which makes a *lot* of very unpleasant smoke when you first light it, and the smell doesn't go away quickly either. I don't know if all Greek self-lighting charcoal is like that, but I tend to avoid it now.

-- Theodore C
 

MariaRegina

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When brought up to our priest, he told us that he's sorry, but it's part
of the worship service and there's nothing he can/will do about it. We just
have to deal with it! So, hacking away, keeping a bottle of water handy, and a
window open, we perservere! lol

from the "other" Irene:
Well..the priest (or the deacon or the altar boys) can do something about it.
They can load less charcoal into the censer - that should help. We had this
problem at my previous parish in Maryland. If it got too smokey when I was
directing, I asked one of the men (usually the parish council president) to go
into the altar and plead with the altar servers to cut down on the charcoal. The
priest had no problem with this - although he always chuckled that someone
like me - a cradle Orthodox - hadn't developed a set of iron lungs! :)
Irene II
 
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MariaRegina

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Dear All,

Peter is right. The charcoal is the real problem. A quotation from Percy Dearmer, The Parson's Handbook (OUP, 12th ed, 1932, p 169 fn): "If there are complaints about the incense, they should not be dismissed as mere prejudices, but care should be taken that not benzoin or storax be mixed in the incense, since these ingredients do affect certain people; and less charcoal and incense should be put into the censer."

p 170 "The charcoal can be heated in a minute if the lumps are put into a wire spoon with a wooden handle, and held over the gas. As little charcoal should be used as possible; for charcoal fumes are not pleasant in themselves."

But I've never seen a Bunsen burner in the vestry. What is the best type of charcoal to use? Three Kings which lights with a match (has an infusion of something like lighter fluid), or barbeque charcoal, which is much cheaper? And how do you optimize proportions, and burn the most incense with the least charcoal? Kolya's counsel to put the incense at the side rather than on top of the charcoal sounds good. That no-charcoal censer (for a price) from a couple years back looks like a good idea which
could use some further development.

Best,

Don
 
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MariaRegina

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This is an interesting phenomenon. Some people do have a real physical aversion to liturgical incense. A priest has advised Irene that its use is a part of our worship tradition. Essentially, the advice is to adapt to its use. Bottom line: how about trying that? I don't have asthma or a chronic pulmonary disease, but I do have noticeable allergies that require medication. It's a chronic, daily health problem. My personal experience has been that what bothers me physically is the charcoal smoke, not the aromatic vapors themselves. When a priest tries to placate the "incense-sufferers" by using little to no incense on the charcoal, we get mostly charcoal smoke in the nave. You can smell it. You don't smell incense. That's when I get respiratory problems. It's called smoke inhalation by the fire department, and it's unpleasant. What's the point of walking around with a censer that's releasing charcoal smoke? "Let my prayer arise, O Lord, in Your sight as charcoal smoke..." I understand that some incense is offensive to certain noses. Why don't we try the solution of seeking out the "flavors that seem to work for most people present" and go with that? The different types of incense used at different liturgical moments and seasons are part of our rich tradition. Like different colors and different sounds, they are liturgically enriching. Think of different cooking and baking aromas and reactions/ideation responses they elicit when encountered. The incense issue: I've experienced liturgy with "multiple flavors," all the same flavor, and some with mainly charcoal smoke and no flavor. As to the latter, I think, "Why bother? It's about the incense...reminds me of the beer commercial where everyone is drinking from empty bottles and pouring from empty spouts." Let's get creative. Let's figure out a way to make it work in each challenging situation.

Rdr Peter D.
 
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MariaRegina

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http://www.soukofoman.com/

I accessed this site - is it a muslim site?

Does anyone know of good places to purchase incense that is of good quality and does not produce acrid smoke?

What about charcoal? Are there good sources? Is it better to pulverize the charcoal or make your own?

I do get very sick with bronchitis and severe headaches when exposed to Rose Incense and other strong flavors. Does anyone hear have similar problems?
 
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Suzannah

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Hi Chanter!

JK!!! :D couldn't resist... I've been reading this thread with great interest! In my hippie days, we used to use similar charcoal bricks and I think the ignition ingredient was salt petre....maybe they've come up with better stuff since then??

I can only answer your last question: that is a Muslim site. :sorry:

I do know that the incense they use in my church is purchased from the Holy Transfiguration Monastery in Brookline. ( i asked because I love the scent.)
Our church is very small and I do mean small....literally 1 room behind a bookstore, about 18x12. I have not noticed any acrid smells. I hope I am helpful!
 
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Matrona

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Suzannah said:
Our church is very small and I do mean small....literally 1 room behind a bookstore, about 18x12. I have not noticed any acrid smells. I hope I am helpful!
Hehehe, mine's about that size, too. :) Such is the lot of a mission parish. ;)

I have not noticed any acrid smell from charcoal, either. Maybe they keep the censer especially clean, I don't know. I'll have to ask My Friend The Subdeacon. When Photini sent me the censer I have for my icon corner (thank you Photini!!!), he answered every one of my questions about lighting incense. All the same, when I light it, I open one of my containers of holy water, just in case. :)

I do think that at least some incense charcoal uses saltpeter since it's supposed to help it light faster or something.
 
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MariaRegina

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Matrona said:
Hehehe, mine's about that size, too. :) Such is the lot of a mission parish. ;)

I have not noticed any acrid smell from charcoal, either. Maybe they keep the censer especially clean, I don't know. I'll have to ask My Friend The Subdeacon. When Photini sent me the censer I have for my icon corner (thank you Photini!!!), he answered every one of my questions about lighting incense. All the same, when I light it, I open one of my containers of holy water, just in case. :)

I do think that at least some incense charcoal uses saltpeter since it's supposed to help it light faster or something.

What is saltpeter?

Does it contribute to the acrid smell?
 
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Matrona

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chanter said:
What is saltpeter?
KNO[size=-1]3[/size] or NaNO[size=-1]3[/size] :D

potassium nitrate
n.
A transparent white crystalline compound used to pickle meat and in the manufacture of pyrotechnics, explosives, matches, rocket propellants, and fertilizers. Also called saltpeter.


sodium nitrate
n.

A white crystalline compound used in solid rocket propellants, in the manufacture of explosives and glass and pottery enamel, and as fertilizer. Also called caliche, Chile saltpeter, saltpeter, soda niter.


And that's today's Chemistry Lesson With Matrona. ;)
 
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MariaRegina

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Matrona said:
KNO[size=-1]3[/size] or NaNO[size=-1]3[/size] :D

potassium nitrate
n.
A transparent white crystalline compound used to pickle meat and in the manufacture of pyrotechnics, explosives, matches, rocket propellants, and fertilizers. Also called saltpeter.


sodium nitrate
n.

A white crystalline compound used in solid rocket propellants, in the manufacture of explosives and glass and pottery enamel, and as fertilizer. Also called caliche, Chile saltpeter, saltpeter, soda niter.


And that's today's Chemistry Lesson With Matrona. ;)


Yiks! :(
 
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I remember once we were having Liturgy at the Olympia Mission in the Episcopal Church's upstairs fellowship hall. I got to much incense in the the censer and it really started smoking. It set off the fire alarms, with the stobe lights and buzzers. What was worse it automatically called the fire department, and we did not have access to the church's telephone to call the fire department off. Fortunately we found the sexton and he called for us. We stopped in mid liturgy, until we took care of that and then resumed with the windows open!
Jeff the Finn
 
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Oblio

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Unfortunately (or fortunately) I was not there. I do know that the incense was heavy enough to escape through the cracks in the doors of the Episcopal chapel that we used at the time. Just outside the doors was a smoke sensor that was wired to the alarm service. We need to determine how to disable the alarm on our new church (and cover up those durn Exit signs too :o )
 
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