Problems With Abortion

[waves]

(1) Abortion is the intentional killing of a baby which is a crime. Babies are humans just like you. Is it okay to kill a human, a child for being disabled?


Exodus 21 verse 22, 23

[22] If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
[23] And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life


http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV1&byte=220736



God is saying that babies in the womb have life, and the life of a baby compares to the life of an adult. As such punishment must be given when a baby dies in the womb.



(2) When girls and women get raped, if they become pregnant, abortions will hide the fact that they were raped in the first place. Therefore a rapist may rape someone continually, because they know all biological evidence will be removed.


To Maintain Supply of Sex Slaves, ISIS Pushes Birth Control



(3) As I have stated several times abortion is directly linked to Eugenics. This is where abortion was created and encouraged as a way of removing unwanted persons from society like the disabled or the sick. Abortion is doing just this.



**** God reminded me recently that the purpose for abortion being pushed is to actually get rid of unwanted people. Many persons have no clue that this is the reason why abortions are being encouraged



(4) Many abortions are done because women feel that having a baby at the time, is not what they want financially or career wise at the time. The fact of the matter is a baby is a human being, not an item to get rid of easily like a handbag because it clashes with your clothes.

Many women who support abortion or feel financially they are not ready for a baby, and that having an abortion is the best remedy consider the following. Women everything in life has a cost, everything. Assess what you buy each day, and see the price you are willing to pay to get what you want. This is whether it is the latest technological item or clothing, jewelry, high heels.

Think of long lines where people are willing to spend all day, just to buy the latest items. Is not a baby a human being worth more than these items?


Reasons U.S. Women Have Abortions: Quantitative and Qualitative Perspectives


By the Numbers - Statistical Breakdown of Reasons



(5) If an animal is killed purposely by a human being there is a major uproar. If someone takes out the fetus from an animal, in order to kill it, how would persons react? Are the life of animals worth more than the life of babies.



(6) Persons need to be aware that not all doctors can be trusted. Many women have gotten abortions because of wrong advice from the doctor. This is where doctors tell women that because their child has a certain sickness, it is a waste of time to keep the baby because there is no way that the baby can do well in life.


They are many stories however of babies born with serious sicknesses including cancer, who doctors thought would not live, and they are doing quite well, despite what their doctor has said. Keep your trust, hope in Jesus Christ. Doctors are causing many women to feel there is no hope for them and their unborn child.


Many women are putting their trust in their doctor so much so. But look on the evidence, are all doctors good and honest people? Doctors have participated in great atrocities against people during normal everyday life, wars, dictatorships and other times, helping with the torture of innocent people.




MPs: Abortions being carried out for cleft palates


Dozens of abortions carried out on foetuses with minor imperfections such as cleft lip or club foot


Miracle baby Darcie Kay just keeps smiling after fighting tumour

 

[JackRT]

Exodus 21: 22 If men quarrel, and one strike a woman with child, and she miscarry indeed, but live herself: he shall be answerable for so much damage as the woman's husband shall require, and as arbiters shall award. 23 But if her death ensue thereupon, he shall render life for life. 24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,

If this passage be read in it's complete historical context, what we learn is that in the case of an accidentally induced abortion (the fetus is dead) then the father has a right to financial compensation for future loss of income (labour if a boy and both labour and dowry if a girl). However if the mother is killed, it becomes a far more serious offense. The death of the fetus is clearly not regarded as seriously as the mother's death.

 

[Winken]

Exodus 21: 22 If men quarrel, and one strike a woman with child, and she miscarry indeed, but live herself: he shall be answerable for so much damage as the woman's husband shall require, and as arbiters shall award. 23 But if her death ensue thereupon, he shall render life for life. 24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,

If this passage be read in it's complete historical context, what we learn is that in the case of an accidentally induced abortion (the fetus is dead) then the father has a right to financial compensation for future loss of income (labour if a boy and both labour and dowry if a girl). However if the mother is killed, it becomes a far more serious offense. The death of the fetus is clearly not regarded as seriously as the mother's death.

........and you found that in Exodus. Who was exiting? From where? To where? Did they make the journey? Why not? Because they _______________________________ . (fill in the blanks). This applies to abortion today because _________________________ . (ditto).
Christians should carefully consider everything written in the Book of Exodus because _______________________________. (ditto).

 

[Razare]

Before I was a Christian, Ron Paul fixed my thinking on this.

He had been a practicing doctor, and he as a student had to attend an abortion. They took the baby out, and it was alive, and then they threw it in a bucket. Right then and there he recognized it for what it was, murder.

Dealing with abortion should not be an amendment to any law we don't already have on the books.

It is murder. Police should arrest people for murder when it occurs, and it should be prosecuted.

The justice system as it is currently written is perfectly capable of dealing with "strange cases" that abortion advocates like to bring up as false counter-points.

"What if you were raped?" Ok, what if? If you abort the baby, the police will arrest you, and you will go before a jury, and you will have to explain before a court why murdering a baby was justified based upon rape. If society prosecuted according to the law, when a woman is raped, it does not mean she gets to then go murder some other human some days later just because she was victimized. Because a woman was raped, does not mean she has the right to murder me. It's nonsense.

"I have a right to my body." Ok, we do have rights to our bodies. People have the right to tattoos, ect, in our society, the right to plastic surgery. Does the rights I have to my body include murder? No. If I get a tattoo, it does not mean I can murder the tattoo artist. A human life is not your finger nails! There is a difference. If there is no difference, then let me punch a man in the stomach on the streets, and then I punch a pregnant woman where her baby aborts because I punch her. If a baby is not alive, then the crime in both cases is identical. It is the same to punch pregnant women with babies, as it would be to punch men in the stomach, if babies are not human lives. That anyone would show any respect to the human life inside the stomach of a pregnant woman, is proof it is alive. People know, they just intentionally play dumb and stupify themselves to promote their own lusts and desires, and political agendas, and hold on to ideologies.

"I cannot afford a baby!" ... therefore murder? When poor people, if they get a gun and start shooting people, or point a gun at a police officer.... even if they are stealing food, that police officer would shoot them dead and rightfully so. Society has determined based upon the morality God gave us, that being poor is not justification for murder. Also, the obvious answer is adoption, or perhaps relying on God to support you! Yes, God will give you finances for a baby if you believe him. He gave Joseph and Mary finances when Jesus was born!

That all said, the supreme court and society broke the justice code which was capable of handling abortions as murder.

Reform Christianity on Abortion => Reform Society through Revival to Jesus Christ => Eliminate Abortions

So I believe the biggest obstacle and why we have abortions in the USA, is because too many Christians support abortions.

These people are talkers and not Christians. Sure, I might see a few in heaven, but who cares? What they have to say is irrelevant on all issues if they support abortion because they are deceived beyond the ability for a legitimate Christian to fellowship with them.

But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people. - 1 Corinthians 5:11

Notice murder wasn't even mentioned. It wasn't mentioned because Paul took it for granted that the disobedient, sexually immoral church that he was heavily correcting... that this disobedient church did not have murderers in this ranks? Murderers prior to Christ maybe, but not as part of their Christian walk.

--------------------------------

And if you did abort a baby in the past, there is the atonement of Jesus Christ, and through that atonement we are able to be forgiven and the punishment we rightfully deserved is enacted upon the cross.

 

[Razare]

The death of the fetus is clearly not regarded as seriously as the mother's death.

That's a false teaching because it rejects what Christ came to deliver to man. It is like turning our backs on Jesus Christ, and going back to Jewish law. Under Jewish law, I agree with you, they put it on that level.

But God was greater than all the Jewish laws he gave. He was always greater than them, that's what enabled him to give them the laws. But those laws were below God's standard.

Matthew 5:41 - "You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles.

In Christianity, we are the ones committed to sacrifice for the other party.

We do not enforce our rights, but uphold the rights of others, while we ourselves are required to sacrifice. In Christianity, it flip-flops. It gets turned upside down because of how our kingdom is built.

John 13:34 - A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.
1 Corinthians 10:24 - No one should seek their own good, but the good of others.
1 Corinthians 13 - Love ... it does not seek its own

How do we fulfill the love of Christ, by murdering unborn children?

In Christ's kingdom the child is greater than all the adults. Why? Because we are commanded to help the weak and defenseless.

"Who is my neighbor?" Luke 10
Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world. - James 1:27

An orphan is a child without parents. A child in which parents want to murder it, is an orphan. When society sees a child that will be harmed by it's parents, we remove that child from the parent's custody. This is a ideal society has adopted born from love. Society did not know to do this, until society learned something about love. And this love that society learned from, was derived from Christ's teachings actually.

 

[crossnote]

Exodus 21: 22 If men quarrel, and one strike a woman with child, and she miscarry indeed, but live herself: he shall be answerable for so much damage as the woman's husband shall require, and as arbiters shall award. 23 But if her death ensue thereupon, he shall render life for life. 24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,

If this passage be read in it's complete historical context, what we learn is that in the case of an accidentally induced abortion (the fetus is dead) then the father has a right to financial compensation for future loss of income (labour if a boy and both labour and dowry if a girl). However if the mother is killed, it becomes a far more serious offense. The death of the fetus is clearly not regarded as seriously as the mother's death.

There is a logical fallacy embedded here. Exodus is speaking of 'accidental' injury to the unborn, abortion is not accidental.

 

[pescador]

There is a logical fallacy embedded here. Exodus is speaking of 'accidental' injury to the unborn, abortion is not accidental.

Also, it's interesting how somebody can lift a couple of verses out of a set of laws written to the Jews thousands of years ago and apply them to a modern medical procedure. Of more relevancy, where does it say in scripture that a woman must undergo medical and legal challenges to her rights to determine her own medical treatment? Luke, who was both a scholar and a physician, never mentions anything like that in Luke-Acts.

 

[crossnote]

Also, it's interesting how somebody can lift a couple of verses out of a set of laws written to the Jews thousands of years ago and apply them to a modern medical procedure. Of more relevancy, where does it say in scripture that a woman must undergo medical and legal challenges to her rights to determine her own medical treatment? Luke, who was both a scholar and a physician, never mentions anything like that in Luke-Acts.

Or where in Scripture does it say that a woman has all rights over the unborn child in her womb?

For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother's womb. I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Wonderful are your works; my soul knows it very well. My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately woven in the depths of the earth. Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.
(Psa 139:13-16)

 

[Hank77]

Or where in Scripture does it say that a woman has all rights over the unborn child in her womb?

For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother's womb. I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Wonderful are your works; my soul knows it very well. My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately woven in the depths of the earth. Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.
(Psa 139:13-16)

David is saying that God always knew about him, even Before he was of any substance or form. He talking about God's omniscience and God's intentions that David would be born.
Does man have the right to end a life or is God the determiner of who should live and who should not live?

 

[pescador]

That's a false teaching because it rejects what Christ came to deliver to man. It is like turning our backs on Jesus Christ, and going back to Jewish law. Under Jewish law, I agree with you, they put it on that level.

But God was greater than all the Jewish laws he gave. He was always greater than them, that's what enabled him to give them the laws. But those laws were below God's standard.

Matthew 5:41 - "You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles.

In Christianity, we are the ones committed to sacrifice for the other party.

We do not enforce our rights, but uphold the rights of others, while we ourselves are required to sacrifice. In Christianity, it flip-flops. It gets turned upside down because of how our kingdom is built.

John 13:34 - A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.
1 Corinthians 10:24 - No one should seek their own good, but the good of others.
1 Corinthians 13 - Love ... it does not seek its own

How do we fulfill the love of Christ, by murdering unborn children?

In Christ's kingdom the child is greater than all the adults. Why? Because we are commanded to help the weak and defenseless.

"Who is my neighbor?" Luke 10
Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world. - James 1:27

An orphan is a child without parents. A child in which parents want to murder it, is an orphan. When society sees a child that will be harmed by it's parents, we remove that child from the parent's custody. This is a ideal society has adopted born from love. Society did not know to do this, until society learned something about love. And this love that society learned from, was derived from Christ's teachings actually.

As the term is used in the Bible, an orphan is a living, breathing child that has already been born.

Or where in Scripture does it say that a woman has all rights over the unborn child in her womb?

For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother's womb. I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Wonderful are your works; my soul knows it very well. My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately woven in the depths of the earth. Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.
(Psa 139:13-16)

Where does it say that she doesn't? That somehow a secular government has more rights concerning her unborn child than she does? The very scripture that you quote also means that the government has no right to interfere with what belongs to God? If you condemn a woman for seeking an abortion (which in many cases is medically necessary) why not condemn the government for interfering with a woman's freedom to make her own medical decision?

On a more technical level this scripture says that this particular being is "made in secret, intricately woven in the depths of the earth". Where exactly might that be? And what is the "unformed substance" that God saw?

 

[crossnote]

David is saying that God always knew about him, even Before he was of any substance or form. He talking about God's omniscience and God's intentions that David would be born.
Does man have the right to end a life or is God the determiner of who should live and who should not live?

I think it goes a little further than 'knowing' and 'omniscience'. It also includes God forming and knitting our inward parts.
If God did such, we do not have the right to undo.

 

[crossnote]

As the term is used in the Bible, an orphan is a living, breathing child that has already been born.



Where does it say that she doesn't? That somehow a secular government has more rights concerning her unborn child than she does? The very scripture that you quote also means that the government has no right to interfere with what belongs to God? If you condemn a woman for seeking an abortion (which in many cases is medically necessary) why not condemn the government for interfering with a woman's freedom to make her own medical decision?

On a more technical level this scripture says that this particular being is "made in secret, intricately woven in the depths of the earth". Where exactly might that be? And what is the "unformed substance" that God saw?

God has given government the right of capital punishment, otherwise it's duty is to protect it's governed...not murder them.

And for your lifeblood I will require a reckoning: from every beast I will require it and from man. From his fellow man I will require a reckoning for the life of man. "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed, for God made man in his own image.
(Gen 9:5-6)

Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer.
(Rom 13:1-4)

 

[pescador]

Why is this topic always skewed toward the issue of abortion? The cases that have been decided by the US courts is that a woman is free from government intrusion into her private life

God has given government the right of capital punishment, otherwise it's duty is to protect it's governed...not murder them.

And for your lifeblood I will require a reckoning: from every beast I will require it and from man. From his fellow man I will require a reckoning for the life of man. "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed, for God made man in his own image.
(Gen 9:5-6)

Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer.
(Rom 13:1-4)

So by your reasoning the Noahic Covenant is still in effect? Really? So it is never proper to kill another man? How about the recent terrorists killed by police? Should they not have been killed?

The fact is it is proper at times to kill another person! Abraham killed many in the battle of the kings, and Melchizedek blessed him and Christ is a priest forever in the Order of Melchizedek. Moses, who put the First Covenant into effect, killed an Egyptian, yet God didn't punish him, but used him to give God's law to the Israelites. David, a man after God's own heart, killed Goliath. I can cite many other examples from the Bible of people killing other people with God's blessing.

However, I agree with you (and Paul) about the governing authorities. So if the Supreme Court ruled 7-2(!) in Roe v Wade that under the 14th Amendment a woman has the right to have an abortion then we should indeed accept their authority. "For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist [including the US Supreme Court] have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment."

 

[crossnote]

Why is this topic always skewed toward the issue of abortion? The cases that have been decided by the US courts is that a woman is free from government intrusion into her private life


So by your reasoning the Noahic Covenant is still in effect? Really? So it is never proper to kill another man? How about the recent terrorists killed by police? Should they not have been killed?

The fact is it is proper at times to kill another person! Abraham killed many in the battle of the kings, and Melchizedek blessed him and Christ is a priest forever in the Order of Melchizedek. Moses, who put the First Covenant into effect, killed an Egyptian, yet God didn't punish him, but used him to give God's law to the Israelites. David, a man after God's own heart, killed Goliath. I can cite many other examples from the Bible of people killing other people with God's blessing.

However, I agree with you (and Paul) about the governing authorities. So if the Supreme Court ruled 7-2(!) in Roe v Wade that under the 14th Amendment a woman has the right to have an abortion then we should indeed accept their authority. "For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist [including the US Supreme Court] have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment."

Skewed toward the issue of abortion?...last I checked, the title of this thread was dealing with abortion.

Noahic Covenant? It was an unconditional covenant and has not been nullified by God.

Never proper to kill a man? It is speaking of premeditated murder. The State has the right to kill those who premeditate the murder of another.

Recent terrorists killed by police? That is covered in the Scripture I gave above. Rom 13;1-4

Blindly accepting governmental authority? There are many cases in Scripture where the saints did not. Rahab lying, hiding the spies, the midwives not killing the Hebrew boys, the Apostles saying we ought to obey God not men, When the two come in conflict we are to obey God.

 

[pescador]

Skewed toward the issue of abortion?...last I checked, the title of this thread was dealing with abortion.

Noahic Covenant? It was an unconditional covenant and has not been nullified by God.

Never proper to kill a man? It is speaking of premeditated murder. The State has the right to kill those who premeditate the murder of another.

Recent terrorists killed by police? That is covered in the Scripture I gave above. Rom 13;1-4

Blindly accepting governmental authority? There are many cases in Scripture where the saints did not. Rahab lying, hiding the spies, the midwives not killing the Hebrew boys, the Apostles saying we ought to obey God not men, When the two come in conflict we are to obey God.

There was a very interesting article in a recent National Geographic about how people accept ideas that are in agreement with the concepts that they already hold to be true. This is the case here and elsewhere.

You can convince yourself of whatever you want the Bible to say, but I disagree with your interpretation. IMHO you are really applying scripture to situations to which they do not apply. As one example, you point out certain Old Testament people that disobeyed the authorities, and then cite Romans 13 to show that people should obey authorities. You say "the Apostles [are] saying we ought to obey God not men". Go ahead and see how far that gets you in a court of law. Never mind that it's contradictory to what Paul, an apostle, said in Romans, and that it was originally said in a response to the Jewish authorities telling them not to teach in Jesus' name.

You're going way off topic. I discussed obeying the authority of the Supreme Court regarding a woman's right to have an abortion. You bring in the Noahic Covenant and the Mosaic Covenant to make your point, which have been done away with by the New Covenant in Christ, and distort the meaning of the scriptures by taking them out of context.

As a Christian I intend to serve my Lord and obey the laws of the land, including those issues decided by the Supreme Court. No sophistry will change that.

 

[crossnote]

There was a very interesting article in a recent National Geographic about how people accept ideas that are in agreement with the concepts that they already hold to be true. This is the case here and elsewhere.

You can convince yourself of whatever you want the Bible to say, but I disagree with your interpretation. IMHO you are really applying scripture to situations to which they do not apply. As one example, you point out certain Old Testament people that disobeyed the authorities, and then cite Romans 13 to show that people should obey authorities. You say "the Apostles [are] saying we ought to obey God not men". Go ahead and see how far that gets you in a court of law. Never mind that it's contradictory to what Paul, an apostle, said in Romans, and that it was originally said in a response to the Jewish authorities telling them not to teach in Jesus' name.

You're going way off topic. I discussed obeying the authority of the Supreme Court regarding a woman's right to have an abortion. You bring in the Noahic Covenant and the Mosaic Covenant to make your point, which have been done away with by the New Covenant in Christ, and distort the meaning of the scriptures by taking them out of context.

As a Christian I intend to serve my Lord and obey the laws of the land, including those issues decided by the Supreme Court. No sophistry will change that.

Jack RT brought up Ecodus, I responded and you jumped in. You didn't have to.
I suppose you'd bow down to an erected idol by the State if they commanded it's citizens to?

 

[pescador]

Jack RT brought up Ecodus, I responded and you jumped in. You didn't have to.
I suppose you'd bow down to an erected idol by the State if they commanded it's citizens to?

Only if it used correct English.

BTW this is a forum. If you want to have a private discussion then PM each other. Otherwise, people can jump in and out whenever they want.

 

[crossnote]

Pescador wrote- You're going way off topic. I discussed obeying the authority of the Supreme Court regarding a woman's right to have an abortion. You bring in the Noahic Covenant and the Mosaic Covenant to make your point, which have been done away with by the New Covenant in Christ, and distort the meaning of the scriptures by taking them out of context.

The topic? Abortion!

I wrote- Jack RT brought up Exodus, I responded and you jumped in. You didn't have to.
I suppose you'd bow down to an erected idol by the State if they commanded it's citizens to?

and then you write..

Only if it used correct English.

BTW this is a forum. If you want to have a private discussion then PM each other. Otherwise, people can jump in and out whenever they want.

You are free to post here. I never said you couldn't.

Show me in Scripture where God did away with capital punishment, man/woman marriage, toiling the land by the sweat of our brow, or women going through labor pains in birth...all decreed in Genesis.
You can't just flim flam away what God has decreed for mankind from the beginning.

Also would you bow down to an erected idol by the State if they commanded it's citizens to?

 

[pescador]

The topic? Abortion!

and then you write..
You are free to post here. I never said you couldn't.

Show me in Scripture where God did away with capital punishment, man/woman marriage, toiling the land by the sweat of our brow, or women going through labor pains in birth...all decreed in Genesis.
You can't just flim flam away what God has decreed for mankind from the beginning.

Also would you bow down to an erected idol by the State if they commanded it's citizens to?

If you want to live in Genesis (or the Old Testament for that matter) go ahead. I'm sure there is a synagogue near you where you'll feel quite at home. I would quit your day job and start earning your living by the sweat of your brow, tilling the earth with a wooden tool. (Genesis 3:17-18) That is what God commanded. Since you are a descendant of Abram, you have been blessed for killing your enemies, since your seed was in him when he killed kings. (Genesis 14:19-20) I don't know where you live, but if it's not in the Near East, you're not living where God told your ancestor to live. (Genesis 15:18, 16:8) And of course you must be circumcised. (Genesis 16:10-11) If you're descended from Esau then you must find a descendant of Jacob and offer to work for him, since that's what God commanded. (Genesis 25:23) And of course, since all scripture -- The Old Testament -- is God-breathed, you must follow every single Levitical law. If you break even one of them you are guilty before God.

Or you can be born again, come alive in Christ, and be free from the previous covenants, from Genesis through Malachi.

Your question about bowing down to an idol erected by "the State" -- whatever that means -- is so absurd that it doesn't even merit an answer.

 

[crossnote]

If you want to live in Genesis (or the Old Testament for that matter) go ahead. I'm sure there is a synagogue near you where you'll feel quite at home. I would quit your day job and start earning your living by the sweat of your brow, tilling the earth with a wooden tool. (Genesis 3:17-18) That is what God commanded. Since you are a descendant of Abram, you have been blessed for killing your enemies, since your seed was in him when he killed kings. (Genesis 14:19-20) I don't know where you live, but if it's not in the Near East, you're not living where God told your ancestor to live. (Genesis 15:18, 16:8) And of course you must be circumcised. (Genesis 16:10-11) If you're descended from Esau then you must find a descendant of Jacob and offer to work for him, since that's what God commanded. (Genesis 25:23) And of course, since all scripture -- The Old Testament -- is God-breathed, you must follow every single Levitical law. If you break even one of them you are guilty before God.

Or you can be born again, come alive in Christ, and be free from the previous covenants, from Genesis through Malachi.

Your question about bowing down to an idol erected by "the State" -- whatever that means -- is so absurd that it doesn't even merit an answer.

Just because the Jewish Messiah came doesn't mean that we chuck the whole OT.
There are plenty of prophecies in the OT that are waiting fulfillment..only the Levitical laws have been done away with.

You won't answer the question about bowing down to an idol if the government commanded all citizens to because it would show clearly your position unscriptural.