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GodsGrace101

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It changes nothing because I don't believe in predestination.
YOU do.
God knew everything that would happen from the beginning, that is not causational.

I've asked many times on this thread for those that believe in determinism to show me when free will was taken away from humas.

Adam and Eve had free will. They CHOSE to eat the fruit.
WHEN did God take that free will away?
The bible is full of the words free will and choice.
So when did God take it away from us??

And what kind of games does this god of yours play with us?
YOU are a saved person, I am a saved person.

So God predeterminated that you would NOT believe in free will and He predeterminated that I would??

Why would He do that? Shouldn't everyone who believes in God, believe the same theory of predetermination?
 
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98cwitr

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So if the sins are blotted out, then only the good things we have done are left; is that what you mean?

We can talk about why people resist God, the times they do.

Briefly, can you tell me why you believe people resist God?


We have to have a nature and a heart willing to do that, don't we?

As for God not leading us to a place where we are tempted, He allowed Jesus to be tempted and in fact, it says Jesus was led there. God tempting? No. You are correct. Necessary that temptations come according to Jesus? Yes.

We can agree that it is the devil that does the tempting, yes?
 
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98cwitr

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You can't take away something that never was. Adam and Eve had no more free will than we do today. They were destined to fall.
 
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redleghunter

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However, it's not the 60 are wrong and Butch is right. It's a matter or interpreting the text. Paul is the one who indicates two groups, not me.
He doesn't and you have not shown it.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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Like I said, your funny.
OK, time for English lesson. It’s “you’re” as in “you are” so take note.
You quote me, then use the phrase "children in their understanding".
Since you don’t quote me and you don’t understand the difference between your and you’re, I doubt your reading my words is correct.
Everybody here knows to whom you were directing this towards.
That’s what people say when their view is singular. I’m sure no one but you and your team “know” this. I don’t and I wrote it.
Everybody here knows what you meant.
I’m very certain not everyone here has read my post. This shows your argument is weak.
And then you make fun of my signature.
Wrong. I pointed out the hypocrisy. You make a mockery of others, not me.
Your funny.
Hope your English is improved next time.
God Bless

Till all are one.
Seriously doubt we will ever be. I don’t openly mock others laughing at them, You do and often. This is a pretty serious obstacle to unity....mocking.
 
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GodsGrace101

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It will be my will that I'll be with Him.

Those that are depending of it being God's will have no assurance of salvation. How do YOU know that 20 years from now God will not withdraw your salvation? We all know someone that had the faith but then fell away. So, by your theory, God made them fall away since He predetermines everything.

If God made that person fall away, how can you be sure He won't do the same to you?

I, OTOH, have chosen God of my own free will. Or so it would seem, unless He's a real kidder.

So as long as I wish to remain saved, I WILL BE SAVED.

This is much more assuring than your theory.

That whosoever believeth in Him...believes, right now, this moment, IS SAVED.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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So if the sins are blotted out, then only the good things we have done are left; is that what you mean?
There is no promise that future sins are blotted out. John wrote we must confess and repent. Forgiveness is conditional. Do you see that?
Briefly, can you tell me why you believe people resist God?
Because I see what God wants and that is we treat others as we’d like to be treated and I look around and see people stealing and murdering and destroying others. That evil is not the will of God. Do you need verses? How do you see the terrible people sometimes do as doing the will of God?
We have to have a nature and a heart willing to do that, don't we?
Yes, sometimes, sure. Depends.
We can agree that it is the devil that does the tempting, yes?
Yes, we agree. Nice huh?
 
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GodsGrace101

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You can't take away something that never was. Adam and Eve had no more free will than we do today. They were destined to fall.
So God makes us THINK we have free will?
So how do YOU know He just doesn't want you to THINK what you do?

One of us has to be wrong, maybe it's YOU.

Also, I'd like to say that the bible is most simple in its affirmations. The institutes of Calvin, otoh, are much more complicated than the CCC is of the Catholic church, or the Westminster Confession.

Just read this title to book and chapter 3.24 :

Book 3, Chapter 24: Election confirmed by the calling of God. The reprobate bring upon themselves the righteous destruction to which they are doomed.


Maybe you'd like to explain the above to us?
Election is confirmed by the calling of God - which you cannot be sure of, BTW. You might be one of those that God PRETENDS to extend salvation, when in reality He is not.

The reporbate bring UPON THEMSELVES the righteous destruction to which they are doomed.

So, which is it? Does God predeterminate who is reprobate, or do they bring UPON THEMSELVES the destruction to which they are doomed?

If they are doomed to destruction, HOW do they bring it on themselves?

Calvinism is truly a mysterious theological mystery.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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You can't take away something that never was. Adam and Eve had no more free will than we do today. They were destined to fall.
No where does the Bible indicate this, for one, and for two, anyone who predetermines someone will act in a certain way and then punishes them and all their offspring forever for doing what they had no choice to do otherwise is monsterously evil. How can anyone believe this?
 
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98cwitr

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*****************

So how do YOU know He just doesn't want you to THINK what you do?

Romans 1:28
Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done.

Romans 11:7-10 New International Version (NIV)
7 What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened, 8 as it is written:

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that could not see
and ears that could not hear,
to this very day.”a]">[a]


9 And David says:

“May their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
10 May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
and their backs be bent forever.”b]">[b]

One of us has to be wrong, maybe it's YOU.

And I think that's why we're having the conversation. To provide Scriptural evidence to support our positions. I invite you to refute the Scripture, or explain how I am misunderstanding it. If I'm wrong, prove me wrong.

I have prayed on this topic more than most any other thing, and yet my heart and mind remain convinced.

Book 3, Chapter 24: Election confirmed by the calling of God. The reprobate bring upon themselves the righteous destruction to which they are doomed.

Same question proposed to Paul in Romans 9 and he does not answer it directly. My answer is that God still has the justified ability to hold us accountable because we're cognitively aware of our sins; to add:

John 9:41
Jesus said, “If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains."


Election is confirmed by the calling of God - which you cannot be sure of, BTW. You might be one of those that God PRETENDS to extend salvation, when in reality He is not.

Are you saying you don't believe in assurance of salvation? I don't find any Scripture that supports that God "pretends" to do anything. You language is interesting.

The reporbate bring UPON THEMSELVES the righteous destruction to which they are doomed.

Does not negate the fact that they were always destined for destruction:

Philippians 3:19
Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is set on earthly things.

So, which is it? Does God predeterminate who is reprobate, or do they bring UPON THEMSELVES the destruction to which they are doomed?

It's both, just depends on which perspective you're viewing it from.

Calvinism is truly a mysterious theological mystery.

It seems very difficult for some minds to grasp the concept of Omniscience, and even moreso to couple it with Creatorship, and then see what must be true as a result.

To deny predestination, you must either deny God's Omniscience, or deny that He still creates people. Deny either one, and you've got a solid case for free will, and can also show that election is compatible with free will. Accept both as facts though, and you must arrive at the conclusion that free will does not exist.
 
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98cwitr

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God put the Tree of Knowledge in the garden.

I think the "monstrously evil" thing is to say God loves you and then sentences you to hell at the same time. That surely sullies the definition of love, IMO.

I think the "monstrously evil" thing is to say that the mother lets the child run into the street solely as not to interfere with the child's free will.

I think the "monstrously evil" thing is to say God doesn't protect His children.

I think the "monstrously evil" thing is to say that man's more powerful than God.
 
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redleghunter

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Now for a Biblical definition. From Vine's Expository Dictionary of the Bible:

Elect, Elected, Election

[ A-1,Adjective,G1588, eklektos ]
lit. signifies picked out, chosen" (ek, "from," lego, "to gather, pick out"), and is used of
(a) Christ, the "chosen" of God, as the Messiah,
Luke 23:35 (for the verb in Luke 9:35 See Note below), and metaphorically as a "living Stone," "a chief corner Stone," 1 Peter 2:4, 1 Peter 2:6; some mss. have it in John 1:34, instead of huios, "Son;"
(b) angels,
1 Timothy 5:21, as "chosen" to be of especially high rank in administrative association with God, or as His messengers to human beings, doubtless in contrast to fallen angels (See 2 Peter 2:4; Jude 1:6);
(c) believers (Jews or Gentiles),
Matthew 24:22, Matthew 24:24, Matthew 24:31; Mark 13:20, Mark 13:22, Mark 13:27; Luke 18:7; Romans 8:33; Colossians 3:12; 2 Timothy 2:10; Titus 1:1; 1 Peter 1:1; 1 Peter 2:9 (as a spiritual race); Matthew 20:16; Matthew 22:14; Revelation 17:14, "chosen;" individual believers are so mentioned in Romans 16:13; 2 John 1:1, 2 John 1:13.

Believers were "chosen" "before the foundation of the world" (cp. "before times eternal,"
2 Timothy 1:9), in Christ, Ephesians 1:4, to adoption, Ephesians 1:5; good works, Ephesians 2:10; conformity to Christ, Romans 8:29; salvation from the delusions of the Antichrist and the doom of the deluded, 2 Thessalonians 2:13; eternal glory, Romans 9:23.

The source of their "election" is God's grace, not human will,
Ephesians 1:4-Ephesians 1:5; Romans 9:11; Romans 11:5. They are given by God the Father to Christ as the fruit of His death, all being foreknown and foreseen by God, John 17:6; Romans 8:29. While Christ's death was sufficient for all men, and is effective in the case of the "elect," yet men are treated as responsible, being capable of the will and power to choose. For the rendering "being chosen as firstfruits," an alternative reading in 2 Thessalonians 2:13, See FIRSTFRUITS. See CHOICE, B.

[ A-2,Adjective,
G4899, suneklektos ]
means "elect together with,"
1 Peter 5:13.

[ B-1,Noun,
G1589, ekloge ]
denotes "a picking out, selection" (Eng., "eclogue"), then, "that which is chosen;" in
Acts 9:15, said of the "choice" of God of Saul of Tarsus, the phrase is, lit., "a vessel of choice." It is used four times in Romans; in Acts 9:11, of Esau and Jacob, where the phrase "the purpose ... according to election" is virtually equivalent to "the electing purpose;" in Acts 11:5, the "remnant according to the election of grace" refers to believing Jews, saved from among the unbelieving nation; so in Acts 11:7; in Acts 11:28, "the election" may mean either the "act of choosing" or the "chosen" ones; the context, speaking of the fathers, points to the former, the choice of the nation according to the covenant of promise. In 1 Thessalonians 1:4, "your election" refers not to the church collectively, but to the individuals constituting it; the Apostle's assurance of their "election" gives the reason for his thankgiving. Believers are to give "the more diligence to make their calling and election sure," by the exercise of the qualities and graces which make them fruitful in the knowledge of God, 2 Peter 1:10. For the corresponding verb eklegomai, See CHOOSE.

 
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Dorothy Mae

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God put the Tree of Knowledge in the garden.
”It is necessary that temptations come but woe to him by whom they come.” Was Jesus criticizing God?
I think the "monstrously evil" thing is to say God loves you and then sentences you to hell at the same time. That surely sullies the definition of love, IMO.
The ways of God are more complex than you present it. I can explain it but the ability to understand requires one have reached adult maturity.
I think the "monstrously evil" thing is to say that the mother lets the child run into the street solely as not to interfere with the child's free will.
If you cannot see that we are all adults here and God knows an adult when He sees one, it will not be possible to help you understand.
I think the "monstrously evil" thing is to say God doesn't protect His children.
Did He protect Jesus from pain? Or Peter? Or Paul? Or Jeremiah? Or all those described in Heb 11? I mean you can insist it’s evil to refuse to see what is clearly in scripture but you’ll never understand this by denying the obvious.
I think the "monstrously evil" thing is to say that man's more powerful than God.
No one is saying that. Ok you want a simple view of God where He makes sure no one suffers. I advise you to avoid the Bible.
 
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GodsGrace101

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Sorry K, Didn't mean top ignore you.
Been away and it's difficult to catch up.
I read the first 3 or 4 pages of your link and I do agree with it.

God did choose the Jews, to which anyone could be a part of the Abrahamic Covenant IF they agreed to circumcision which was the sign of that covenant, and if they agreed to the civil, ceremonial and moral laws of those people.

So, in that way, it is also a personal decision to be a part of the covenant...same is true of the New Covenant.

Jesus has a "body"...the Body of Christ. Those who belong to that body, are also saved individually, but are a part of that body.

I believe election refers to Israel, and to those who are today grafted in to the Vine which gives life to us.
John 15:1-6
Today we are called the Body of Christ.
The above is what is predestined, NOT individual salvation which is conditional on our accepting God's conditions..
As it was in Abraham's time, Moses' time and Christ's time.
Exodus 19:6
1 Corinthians 12:12-31
Ephesians 1:13
 
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98cwitr

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”It is necessary that temptations come but woe to him by whom they come.” Was Jesus criticizing God?

No. Satan tempted Eve, not God. Please do not deflect:

I will ask you why God put the Tree there, you'll reply: "To give Adam and Eve a choice", in which I will ask "How could there be any other choice than the one that God foreknew would happen; even before the Tree or the humans ever existed?"

I wish to address that directly.


The ways of God are more complex than you present it. I can explain it but the ability to understand requires one have reached adult maturity.

I prefer to accept the Kingdom of Heaven as a child.

If you cannot see that we are all adults here and God knows an adult when He sees one, it will not be possible to help you understand.


I prefer to accept the Kingdom of Heaven as a child. I do so by accepting Scripture, all of it.

Did He protect Jesus from pain? Or Peter? Or Paul? Or Jeremiah? Or all those described in Heb 11? I mean you can insist it’s evil to refuse to see what is clearly in scripture but you’ll never understand this by denying the obvious.

Does physical life have equal value to spiritual life? We're talking about salvation here.

I advise you to avoid the Bible.

:o That's simply awful. Why would you say that? I will never do it, sister.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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There is a great deal to address but I will only look at this one now.

A sample of God’s view of man’s ability:

“For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off.”

He does not agree with you.

Red, you know well the teaching of men who propose theories thought out of hearts who had no connection such that they could ask God about his ways as Moses and Abraham and David’s did.

It made me very sad. How much better it is to ask God rather than man to explain matters. But my sorrow does you no good. It’s just that I will have to ask Him for wisdom as well as comfort. The assault on His character and accusations that led to hanging evil on him needs recovery. I will talk to Him about how to respond and get back to you. My feeling is it is hopeless to get you to see how this sounds to the host of His house who love Him.
 
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ladodgers6

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Thanks for sharing. Prove it.
 
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ladodgers6

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Thanks for sharing. I am not avoiding your questions. Please if I have, show me where I did? To play fair, what religion do you believe in? I do not want to assume. Thanks.
 
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GodsGrace101

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Thanks for sharing. Prove it.
While he's trying to prove that,
Could you explain what kind of a god Calvin believed in?
Look at this:
3.24.8 Calvin's institutes

that there are two species of calling: for there is an universal call, by which God, through the external preaching of the word, invites all men alike, even those for whom he designs the call to be a savor of death, and the ground of a severer condemnation. Besides this there is a special call which, for the most part, God bestows on believers only, when by the internal illumination of the Spirit he causes the word preached to take deep root in their hearts. Sometimes, however, he communicates it also to those whom he enlightens only for a time, and whom afterwards, in just punishment for their ingratitude, he abandons and smites with greater blindness.

As I've said many times now, I could NEVER worship a God that uses humans as a toy. Just because He IS sovereign, I'm counting on the fact that He loves the humans He created.

  • God’s love is steadfast and unchanging
  • God’s love comforts us
  • God’s love is revealed to us through Jesus Christ
  • God’s love is poured into us through the Holy Spirit
  • God’s love compels us to love one another


  • In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world so that we might live through him. In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. -
  • 1 John 4:9-11
Give thanks to the God of heaven, for his steadfast love endures forever. - Psalm 136:26

source: 14 Inspiring Bible Verses about God's Love


 
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