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Pro Choice question

Tallguy88

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For those who believe that therapeutic (not medically necessary) abortion is a right, at what point (and why) do you say it is wrong?

For example, if you believe it is OK during the first trimester, but not after, why? Or if you believe it is a right up until birth but not after, why?
 

amariselle

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For those who believe that therapeutic (not medically necessary) abortion is a right, at what point (and why) do you say it is wrong?

For example, if you believe it is OK during the first trimester, but not after, why? Or if you believe it is a right up until birth but not after, why?

Good question, I look forward to hearing some responses. (I personally am against abortion. I don't believe it's right at any point.)
 
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JackRT

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It is obvious that both the female egg and the male sperm have a form of life but no one would call either a person. When they unite to form a zygote it certainly is alive. There is a potential person there and a great many people would claim that it actually is a person. Let us grant for a moment that the zygote is a person and let us call that person Mary. I choose a female name since all embryos are female until about the sixth or seventh week.

Now, we all know that a zygote develops into an embryo through the process of cell division. Every now and again the first cell division does not produce a two celled embryo but rather a second zygote --- identical twins. Did Mary suddenly become two persons? Was Mary two persons to begin with? Was Mary even a person to begin with? Let us set those questions aside for the moment and grant that the second zygote is also a person whom we shall call Margaret. It is entirely possible that one or both of these zygotes could divide again to result in triplets, quadruplets, quintuplets etc. The same question applies as to whether one person can became two, three or more persons. When does a person become a person?

These questions might be difficult enough but now it becomes even more complex. Sometimes two eggs are fertilized to form non-identical twins. Once again, let us call them Mary and Margaret. Rarely the two zygotes merge together again to form a two celled embryo. This is called a chimera. Who is this new embryo? Is it Mary or is it Margaret? This new embryo, this chimera, let us call it Mary, develops to term and is born. There is now no question at all that Mary is indeed a person. But here is the odd thing, some of the organs of Mary carry her genes but other organs carry the genes of her twin sister Margaret. So Margaret continues to exist within Mary or perhaps it is Mary within Margaret. Do we have two persons within a single body?

These very serious questions of person-hood arise only if we assume that the soul is infused at conception and that the brand new zygote is fully a person. Is there a more reasonable understanding? I believe there is. Personally I believe that the developing fetus becomes a person only when it is able to survive outside the womb. Sentience occurs at about the same point in the pregnancy very late in the second trimester. For this reason I am against abortion beyond the twentieth week except in very rare extreme circumstances.. Otherwise I believe that abortion should be legal, it should be safe, it should be available and it should be the woman’s informed choice but most important of all --- it should be rare. In conclusion, we should always keep in mind that there is no more powerful abortifacient in the world than poverty.
 
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Tallguy88

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It is obvious that both the female egg and the male sperm have a form of life but no one would call either a person. When they unite to form a zygote it certainly is alive. There is a potential person there and a great many people would claim that it actually is a person. Let us grant for a moment that the zygote is a person and let us call that person Mary. I choose a female name since all embryos are female until about the sixth or seventh week.

Now, we all know that a zygote develops into an embryo through the process of cell division. Every now and again the first cell division does not produce a two celled embryo but rather a second zygote --- identical twins. Did Mary suddenly become two persons? Was Mary two persons to begin with? Was Mary even a person to begin with? Let us set those questions aside for the moment and grant that the second zygote is also a person whom we shall call Margaret. It is entirely possible that one or both of these zygotes could divide again to result in triplets, quadruplets, quintuplets etc. The same question applies as to whether one person can became two, three or more persons. When does a person become a person?

These questions might be difficult enough but now it becomes even more complex. Sometimes two eggs are fertilized to form non-identical twins. Once again, let us call them Mary and Margaret. Rarely the two zygotes merge together again to form a two celled embryo. This is called a chimera. Who is this new embryo? Is it Mary or is it Margaret? This new embryo, this chimera, let us call it Mary, develops to term and is born. There is now no question at all that Mary is indeed a person. But here is the odd thing, some of the organs of Mary carry her genes but other organs carry the genes of her twin sister Margaret. So Margaret continues to exist within Mary or perhaps it is Mary within Margaret. Do we have two persons within a single body?

These very serious questions of person-hood arise only if we assume that the soul is infused at conception and that the brand new zygote is fully a person. Is there a more reasonable understanding? I believe there is. Personally I believe that the developing fetus becomes a person only when it is able to survive outside the womb. Sentience occurs at about the same point in the pregnancy very late in the second trimester. For this reason I am against abortion beyond the twentieth week except in very rare extreme circumstances.. Otherwise I believe that abortion should be legal, it should be safe, it should be available and it should be the woman’s informed choice but most important of all --- it should be rare. In conclusion, we should always keep in mind that there is no more powerful abortifacient in the world than poverty.
Thanks for the detailed answer
 
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amariselle

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It is obvious that both the female egg and the male sperm have a form of life but no one would call either a person. When they unite to form a zygote it certainly is alive. There is a potential person there and a great many people would claim that it actually is a person. Let us grant for a moment that the zygote is a person and let us call that person Mary. I choose a female name since all embryos are female until about the sixth or seventh week.

Now, we all know that a zygote develops into an embryo through the process of cell division. Every now and again the first cell division does not produce a two celled embryo but rather a second zygote --- identical twins. Did Mary suddenly become two persons? Was Mary two persons to begin with? Was Mary even a person to begin with? Let us set those questions aside for the moment and grant that the second zygote is also a person whom we shall call Margaret. It is entirely possible that one or both of these zygotes could divide again to result in triplets, quadruplets, quintuplets etc. The same question applies as to whether one person can became two, three or more persons. When does a person become a person?

These questions might be difficult enough but now it becomes even more complex. Sometimes two eggs are fertilized to form non-identical twins. Once again, let us call them Mary and Margaret. Rarely the two zygotes merge together again to form a two celled embryo. This is called a chimera. Who is this new embryo? Is it Mary or is it Margaret? This new embryo, this chimera, let us call it Mary, develops to term and is born. There is now no question at all that Mary is indeed a person. But here is the odd thing, some of the organs of Mary carry her genes but other organs carry the genes of her twin sister Margaret. So Margaret continues to exist within Mary or perhaps it is Mary within Margaret. Do we have two persons within a single body?

These very serious questions of person-hood arise only if we assume that the soul is infused at conception and that the brand new zygote is fully a person. Is there a more reasonable understanding? I believe there is. Personally I believe that the developing fetus becomes a person only when it is able to survive outside the womb. Sentience occurs at about the same point in the pregnancy very late in the second trimester. For this reason I am against abortion beyond the twentieth week except in very rare extreme circumstances.. Otherwise I believe that abortion should be legal, it should be safe, it should be available and it should be the woman’s informed choice but most important of all --- it should be rare. In conclusion, we should always keep in mind that there is no more powerful abortifacient in the world than poverty.

How do we know the soul doesn't become "infused" at conception. At the very least we should acknowledge that such is outside of the reach of science.

In any case, the point at which a baby is "viable" outside of the womb has changed over the years. I was born two months early and was given a 50/50 chance of surviving...apparently it would have been less if I had been born a boy. Nowadays it is sometimes possible for a baby to be survive even when they are born 3 or even 4 months early. So, my question would be, are babies therefore a person sooner now then they were back when I was born? Because they certainly can be saved much earlier in the pregnancy now they they used to be, and this change has taken place in the last 30 years or so.

I personally don't find the argument of viability outside the womb an adequate one for determining person-hood.
 
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Dave-W

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These questions might be difficult enough but now it becomes even more complex. Sometimes two eggs are fertilized to form non-identical twins. Once again, let us call them Mary and Margaret. Rarely the two zygotes merge together again to form a two celled embryo. This is called a chimera. Who is this new embryo? Is it Mary or is it Margaret? This new embryo, this chimera, let us call it Mary, develops to term and is born. There is now no question at all that Mary is indeed a person. But here is the odd thing, some of the organs of Mary carry her genes but other organs carry the genes of her twin sister Margaret. So Margaret continues to exist within Mary or perhaps it is Mary within Margaret. Do we have two persons within a single body?

These very serious questions of person-hood arise only if we assume that the soul is infused at conception and that the brand new zygote is fully a person.
OK - let us add one more wrinkle into this mix: instead of the twins being Mary and Margaret, let us assume they are Mary and Mike. Approx 50% of fraternal twinning is mixed gender. So now you have a girl with boy DNA (or vice versa) and the possibility of BOTH male and female parts in the genitals. (intersexed)

What about this person?
 
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AirPo

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For those who believe that therapeutic (not medically necessary) abortion is a right, at what point (and why) do you say it is wrong?

For example, if you believe it is OK during the first trimester, but not after, why? Or if you believe it is a right up until birth but not after, why?
Ther is no magical moment when it goes from "right" to "wrong." But ballpark, it's around viability.
 
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JackRT

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OK - let us add one more wrinkle into this mix: instead of the twins being Mary and Margaret, let us assume they are Mary and Mike. Approx 50% of fraternal twinning is mixed gender. So now you have a girl with boy DNA (or vice versa) and the possibility of BOTH male and female parts in the genitals. (intersexed)

What about this person?

Human sexuality is quite complex isn't it?
 
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Dave-W

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Human sexuality is quite complex isn't it?
Indeed. But only made to be so due to living in a fallen world.

Rom 8.19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.
20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope
21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.
 
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JackRT

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Although both a sperm and an egg have a form of life, neither will develop any further unless they unite to form a zygote. A zygote is a potential human person. That simply cannot be said of a sperm or egg.
 
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redleghunter

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Although both a sperm and an egg have a form of life, neither will develop any further unless they unite to form a zygote. A zygote is a potential human person. That simply cannot be said of a sperm or egg.

I know this is your opinion and you are trying to form a rationale for your belief. However, who are you or me to determine what or who is or is not a person? As Christians don't we have a transcendent standard to test truth claims?

Again I converse with you Christian to Christian. What relative 'worth' does eliminating human life before it can be born for a Christian? How would an abortion glorify God and His Design?

Not accusing you, asking how your rationalization of the state of a zygote can lead to such conclusions as a Christian.

Thanks.
 
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amariselle

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How do we know the soul doesn't become "infused" at conception. At the very least we should acknowledge that such is outside of the reach of science.

In any case, the point at which a baby is "viable" outside of the womb has changed over the years. I was born two months early and was given a 50/50 chance of surviving...apparently it would have been less if I had been born a boy. Nowadays it is sometimes possible for a baby to be survive even when they are born 3 or even 4 months early. So, my question would be, are babies therefore a person sooner now then they were back when I was born? Because they certainly can be saved much earlier in the pregnancy now they they used to be, and this change has taken place in the last 30 years or so.

I personally don't find the argument of viability outside the womb an adequate one for determining person-hood.

I still have these questions as well. :)
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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It is obvious that both the female egg and the male sperm have a form of life but no one would call either a person. When they unite to form a zygote it certainly is alive. There is a potential person there and a great many people would claim that it actually is a person. Let us grant for a moment that the zygote is a person and let us call that person Mary. I choose a female name since all embryos are female until about the sixth or seventh week.

Now, we all know that a zygote develops into an embryo through the process of cell division. Every now and again the first cell division does not produce a two celled embryo but rather a second zygote --- identical twins. Did Mary suddenly become two persons? Was Mary two persons to begin with? Was Mary even a person to begin with? Let us set those questions aside for the moment and grant that the second zygote is also a person whom we shall call Margaret. It is entirely possible that one or both of these zygotes could divide again to result in triplets, quadruplets, quintuplets etc. The same question applies as to whether one person can became two, three or more persons. When does a person become a person?

These questions might be difficult enough but now it becomes even more complex. Sometimes two eggs are fertilized to form non-identical twins. Once again, let us call them Mary and Margaret. Rarely the two zygotes merge together again to form a two celled embryo. This is called a chimera. Who is this new embryo? Is it Mary or is it Margaret? This new embryo, this chimera, let us call it Mary, develops to term and is born. There is now no question at all that Mary is indeed a person. But here is the odd thing, some of the organs of Mary carry her genes but other organs carry the genes of her twin sister Margaret. So Margaret continues to exist within Mary or perhaps it is Mary within Margaret. Do we have two persons within a single body?

These very serious questions of person-hood arise only if we assume that the soul is infused at conception and that the brand new zygote is fully a person. Is there a more reasonable understanding? I believe there is. Personally I believe that the developing fetus becomes a person only when it is able to survive outside the womb. Sentience occurs at about the same point in the pregnancy very late in the second trimester. For this reason I am against abortion beyond the twentieth week except in very rare extreme circumstances.. Otherwise I believe that abortion should be legal, it should be safe, it should be available and it should be the woman’s informed choice but most important of all --- it should be rare. In conclusion, we should always keep in mind that there is no more powerful abortifacient in the world than poverty.
To be fair, we know nothing of the actual working of the soul. Perhaps it does divide in this manner. Perhaps both share a soul. Perhaps one has a soul and the other doesn't. When working on the assumption of personhood eventually, I would rather err on the side of caution.

The way I see it, with no evidence for how the soul functions or if it can divide, this argument has to be excluded.

Also, there is no absolute evidence of sentience even in newborn babies. Sentience is complex and just because there is neuronal activity does not mean something is sentient, or is the arm of an Octopus that moves separately from its brain sentient, or a leech? Foetusses dream in the third trimester, but so do dogs, cattle and rats, which many scientists conclude aren't sentient, while others do. We simply cannot prove self-awareness at this stage, foetus or newborn.

Similarly, surviving outside the womb is constantly changing. When I studied medicine it was at 1.2 kg in my country, its now down to 800g in the periphery and 600g in Academic centres. These are now legally people which in the past were considered stillbirths.

Based on the sentience argument, I see no reason to exclude Infanticide of newborns either as sentience cannot be proven beyond doubt. Likewise survivability outside the womb is a rapidly diminishing yardstick thanks to modern neonatal advances, so to be able to abort a foetus based thereon, I don't think is justifiable.

I personally oppose abortion based on the fact that we simply do not know at what point Personhood arises or a Soul appears nor how God considers either concepts. When is Mary a being in and of itself or just a parasitic organ? We don't know, so I'd rather keep to the side that I know I won't accidentally kill a person rather than where the waters are far murkier.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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OK - let us add one more wrinkle into this mix: instead of the twins being Mary and Margaret, let us assume they are Mary and Mike. Approx 50% of fraternal twinning is mixed gender. So now you have a girl with boy DNA (or vice versa) and the possibility of BOTH male and female parts in the genitals. (intersexed)

What about this person?
An Intersex foetus or person remains a human organism, so I for one do not see how this is at all applicable to the argument. It seems a tangential thought referencing a different controversy entirely.
 
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Nithavela

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For those who believe that therapeutic (not medically necessary) abortion is a right, at what point (and why) do you say it is wrong?

For example, if you believe it is OK during the first trimester, but not after, why? Or if you believe it is a right up until birth but not after, why?
I'd say that is not wrong until there is brain activity, because until this time, I do not believe that the fetus can have a consciousness or thoughts. There is no being, only a collection of cells. I also do not believe in the existence of souls which could reside in that collection of cells before brain activity.
 
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Oafman

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Or if you believe it is a right up until birth but not after, why?
When one organism becomes two independent organisms (at birth) then we no longer have a pregnant woman/foetus, we have a mother and a baby. Both individual humans with the right to life. When the foetus becomes a baby, and ceases to be a part of the mother's body, then she no longer has a complete say over what can happen to it.

I'm being deliberately ideological here, but the reality is that it is not quite that simple. I have been challenged in the past by people saying "if it's one organism because they're connected, then doesn't that remain the case until the umbilical cord is cut? So do you support abortion at that stage (baby born, cord not cut)?"

Of course, I do not support a woman's right to terminate a baby that is outside her body but still connected to it. I guess this is an inconsistency in my views, but only a minor one I think. And in reality, no woman is going to do that.

I'm quite horrified by the idea that any woman would consider terminating a foetus in the last month or two of pregnancy, when it is so close to becoming a baby. But I can't bring myself to order her to do something with her own body.

BTW, this is a very tough issue for all of us, atheists included, with very few right or wrong answers.
 
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JackRT

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BTW, this is a very tough issue for all of us, atheists included, with very few right or wrong answers.

"In our world moral decisions are often complex --- not clearly black or white, but a murky shade of gray. Actions often seemingly immoral may still be the better choice. For example, a German Lutheran minister, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, participated in a plot to kill Adolph Hitler. Although he believed murder was immoral, the horrible situation in Germany under the Nazi regime overrode his commitment to pacifism and nonviolence, and brought him finally to the murder plot. He reasoned that the guilt accruing to him for murder would be less than his guilt for doing nothing. As he saw it, he had to choose between the lesser・of two evils. It wasn't the right choice but it wasn't the wrong choice either. Decisions about unplanned pregnancies are not infrequently like Bonhoeffer's choice, a very dirty shade of gray --- however much anti-abortionists try to convince us that the choice is always black and white. For people of conscience, however, legal actions are not always moral, nor are illegal actions always immoral. It depends on the situation."
---by Charles W. Hendrick, Professor Emeritus, Missouri State University
 
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KCfromNC

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This is a good point. To anti-abortion believers who don't want to ban birth control, why draw the line at conception? There's potential babyness in an unfertilized egg and sperm just as there is in a fertilized egg a few minutes later. If you allow the potential to be prevented in one case but not another you're agreeing with the pro-choice view that potentials aren't realities, but you just have a slightly different arbitrary opinion on timing.
 
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