Priests and the Celibacy Rule

[hopeee]

I watched CNN Crossfire last night, and they had Priests talking about the Celibacy Rule that the Church makes them obey..... They brought up very good points. I learned that the Apostles were married, and that Most of the Popes were married up until the 12th Century. Also, some Popes had kids, and some of their kids became Popes. If the Church believes that the Pope is Infallibile, then what was wrong with those Popes being Married? Then I learned that the Roman Catholic Church recently ordained former Episcopalian Priests that were married with kids..... (And their marriage was acceptable to the church and they still were able to become Roman Catholic PRiests.) So what is the big deal? Why doesn't the church allow Priests to marry if they want to? Obviously it was common in our early Catholic Religion for the Apostles, Popes, and Priests to marry... WHy did the Roman Catholic Church dump this tradition? I guess I feel that the Roman Catholic Church feels so strongly on Traditions; why did they dump this tradition by our religion? I am confused, and it doesn't make any sense to me. I see no problem with Priests getting married. Actually, I think they would be able to relate to married couples problems.....since they were married themselves.... This gives them an advantage. Hope

 

[Sarah Magdalene]

While I relegate the information I have to "rumor not necessarily substantiated by truth," I have always remembered something about how in the Dark Ages that the secular leaders of the land were upset that the Church was getting all of the land. The priests would marry the wealthy heiresses and get their dowries - including the land, which the kings and dukes and such could no longer tax because the land belonged to the church. So, they pressured the Church to make priests not be allowed to marry to stop this drain on their finances.

Anyone is free to correct me!

 

[Shane Roach]

The idea is that celibacy is something that is quite strongly admired, both in the Bible itself and in the early church. It came to be generally thought that this was a good thing, for priests to remain celibate.

From what I understand, the church could change this and it would have no effect on Papal infalibility or Sacred Tradition or anything else. It is just a now very longstanding tradition. In America it is not such a popular tradition but I wonder if this is necessarily true in the Catholic faith as a whole.

Any servent of God can be inspired to be celibate, assuming they aren't married. It is something that is positively extoled as a virtue in the New Testament.

 

[VOW]

Actually, Sarah has made a good point. You can't just sit in the Second Millennium and make observations without researching history.

Then, too, remember: the Church doesn't MAKE anyone do anything. Men who feel a calling to the priesthood choose to continue in their vocation, knowing that celibacy is asked of them. There are many wonderful ministries within the Catholic Church where celibacy isn't required.

Being a minister of God is a 24/7 calling. If you have a sick baby awake all night with an ear infection, if your spouse is in the hospital, if you struggle with making your paycheck last until payday, your total concentration isn't going to be on shepherding your flock. Protestant families called to the ministry are under an incredible amount of stress. Not only is their time not their own (goodbye birthday dinners and evenings alone!), but all family members are expected to be paragons of virtue. Many children develop what is informally called "PK" syndrome. The Preacher's Kid who chafes under this scrutiny, and often becomes the meanest, baddest kid on the block.

Yes, there are some fully ordained, married Episcopalian ministers who become Catholic and are allowed to be priests and retain their marriage vows. It's an exception more than a rule.

The Church has been discussing for many years the possibility of lifting the celibacy requirement for the priesthood. There are many places in the world where the priesthood shortage is heartbreaking. There is even discussion about allowing women into the priesthood, because of the dearth of vocations. But that is ALL it is: discussion. It must be analyzed to see if any changes are in line with the Church's teaching.

The laity sees such a small fraction of the workings of the Church, and it is not our role to sit outside and try to direct the operation of the Church. Input is welcome; judgment is not.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[hopeee]

Vow, Just because a priest doesn't have a wife or kids doesn't mean that their lives are less stressful. They do have other obligations besides the Church.... They have parents, brothers, sisters, nieces, and nefews, friends that they might have to take care of..... They might have terminally ill parents that they worry about or have to make sure they drive them to the doctor..... But that is OK.... They are human and should have a life..... Lots of Church's have more than one priest.... Ours has 4... They can alternate and take turns with the Church's duties.....Just like doctors get married and have kids, it doesn't mean that they won't be able to take care of sick people or perform surgery's, because they will have kids at home that demand too much time from their job. Look at my husband. He puts in 80 hours a week in his job... I wonder if Priests work that many hours for their Church? I don't believe that a married priest would put in less time or effort into the Church.. I don't see why they have to be molded to do ONE type of vocation or responsibility. They should be able to do multiple things and handle many different responsibilities... just like people in other professions......They have a job and a life... If they got married, and decided to have kids, it doesn't necessarily mean that they will only live on the Priest's income.... There is no reason why the wife can't work..... Also, the wife will help the Priest out with things, and provide a nice home for him to come home to..... I think wives offer their husbands a lot of emotional support as well. Being married has many benefits, and having children has many benefits too. Having a family to take care of and share your life with is a blessing.... Medical research has proven that married men live longer... Maybe some of these Priests are sad or have something missing in their life.....; like their own children to hug or a wife to talk to and tell your deepest thoughts and feelings..... Someone you can share your life with and grow spiritually. I have never heard of Minister's kids being bad.... That is like saying Teachers' kids are bad..... Or child psychologist's kids are weird.... I think that the Priests should decide how they want to live. If they long for a family, and a wife, and this will make them even happier..... I don't see a problem with it... I think the Catholic Church is losing a lot of men from becoming priests in the first place, because they want a family too..... WHy should they have to decide between the two? Oh, and what happens to the Priest when he retires from the Church? Who takes care of him when he gets ill? Who will visit him when he is by himself and lonely? If he had kids, the children will make sure that he is taken care of..... I really believe that letting Priests marry would be a positive thing for the Church.... I pray that it changes, because I know there are a lot of priests that want it to change....

 

[VOW]

To Hope:

Your "essay" on the benefits of married life is quite touching. What person wouldn't want the solace of a loving spouse, or children to hug?

You are fortunate in your parish that you have four priests. There are some parishes in the United States which have none; a visiting priest may come to celebrate Mass once a month. And there are places in the world today where people have NO priest whatsoever, they are fortunate if a nun can bring them Communion occasionally.

I can see where allowing the priests to marry would offer many good opportunities to the Church.

But there are some REALITIES as well. There are priestly functions which simply cannot be taken over by a layperson, such as administering Last Rites, or hearing Confession. Saying you can just have priests "cover for each other" like they do at a medical clinic isn't really practical.

Letting the priest's wife contribute to the family income is a very touchy subject. Remember, the family of a minister is essentially living in a fishbowl. What kind of work would a priest's wife be "allowed"? And what kind of a field day would the National Organization for Women have if a woman's profession was restricted because of her husband's employer? Already the Catholic Church is scandalized by behavior of its PRIESTS. What would happen if the Church had to exercise control over the priests' FAMILIES? Suppose the Priest's son is dealing drugs from the parsonage? IT HAPPENS. Just because you have a family of a minister of God, you aren't guaranteed a perfect life. In fact, because the commitments to the job must take priority over any family life, a Priest may not be such a wonderful father!

Now for the BIGGIE argument! Are you aware that today, in the United States, about 50% of all marriages end in divorce? You read what Jesus had to say about divorce! The attitude in MOST minds it seems is "hey, if it doesn't work out, we'll get a divorce." Okay, so don't let the priests divorce. Have you ever been around individuals in a really CRUMMY marriage? They are miserable, and so is everyone around them!

There is a LOT more to permitting priests to marry than just "I think they would be happier."


Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[hopeee]

But you can equally say that those situations can apply to anyone married or not... I would think that the Priest's spouse career choices should not have an impact on his ability to serve God.... How could it hurt if his wife is a Nurse, a teacher, a doctor, a lawyer etc.....? That is her career, and she should get paid for it..... Why should people care how much a priests wifes salary is? And if his kids do get mixed up in drugs; why should this hinder his ability to serve God, and the Parish? Kids are only human, and they are bound to make mistakes..... I don't think a Priest who is married would have to cut back hours or find another Priest to swap responsibilities anyways. There is no reason why the Priest couldn't be able to perform his duties adequately, minister, preach, serve, and take care of his Parish, and the members if he is married.... Are you suggesting that Priests should never be allowed to have vacation or leave of absense from their duties? My mother-in-law works at a Hospital 60 hours a week.... She also raised 2 kids..... She was able to be a good mom and still be a good nurse too..... What about Doctors? Should the state say that Doctors shouldn't get married, because it might interfere with their surgury schedules? Of course not. Obviously, the Doctors manage to show up for work....just like everyone else does..... The priesthood is a calling (gift) to these special men; so you know they will put 100% of their heart and soul into their calling (job)..... But, they still have room to be able to fullfill the other possibilities in their life. Each person knows their limitations, and what they can handle... I really don't see how giving Masses a couple days a week and maybe a funeral here and there or reconciliation obligations would be to over-whelming for a Priest to handle if he was married or had a kid.
To answer your question about Divorce. I would assume that the Priests would be treated the same as other Catholics are treated by the Church..... I would assume their would be "Annulments" granted to Priests if their marriage did not work out...... Priest are human..... They make mistakes..... We all know this.... Look at the Priests that are arrested for molesting children..... WHere did they find the time to do that? My God is that awful... I would rather have a happy, honest, loving, spirtual Priest than one that is unhappy.... It always nice talking with you Vow... I am not saying I don't agree with your opinions, I just see things a little differently. Hope

 

[VOW]

To Hope:

Here's a link to a special ministry which helps Preachers' Kids to RECOVER from the stress of being in the fishbowl.

http://www.chonda.org/pk.html


Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[VOW]

Originally posted by hope
But you can equally say that those situations can apply to anyone married or not... I would think that the Priest's spouse career choices should not have an impact on his ability to serve God.... How could it hurt if his wife is a Nurse, a teacher, a doctor, a lawyer etc.....? That is her career, and she should get paid for it..... Why should people care how much a priests wifes salary is?

Hope, her SALARY is not what I meant. Suppose she wanted to be a stripper, a bartender, a race car driver? Let her be a nurse; but wait, does the hospital where she works provide abortions? Priests MOVE, they are transferred regularly depending on the rules of the diocese. Moving is INCREDIBLY stressful on the entire family. When military families move, they often have the support of the surrounding military community. A priest's family won't have another priest's family to "hang with." Moving is hard on the kids, too.

Originally posted by hope
And if his kids do get mixed up in drugs; why should this hinder his ability to serve God, and the Parish? Kids are only human, and they are bound to make mistakes.....

Hope, thank God, you've never had anyone close in your family who has been involved in drugs. It literally rips your heart out through your throat. Everything in the world STOPS, and you limp through your life, trying to exist from one day to the next. You are asking a LOT from anyone to continue the strenuous life of God's ministry when a family member is involved in drugs. I'm not talking about the kid who gets caught smoking pot in the bathroom at school. I'm talking DRUGS. And what would happen if the Priest's kid was SELLING DRUGS from home?

Originally posted by hope
I don't think a Priest who is married would have to cut back hours or find another Priest to swap responsibilities anyways. There is no reason why the Priest couldn't be able to perform his duties adequately, minister, preach, serve, and take care of his Parish, and the members if he is married.... Are you suggesting that Priests should never be allowed to have vacation or leave of absense from their duties?

Priests are allowed to get sick and go on vacation. Very often the diocese will ask retired priests to fill in when another priest is gone. But it would take YEARS to create a big enough pool of "extra" priests to cover for one another in order to allow the extra time that a priest would need in order to care for his family properly. You've mentioned your husband working 80 hours a week, your mother in law working 60 hours a week. A priest is LUCKY to work only those few hours per week. Go ahead, talk to your pastor. Ask him how many hours he works a week. Being a priest is MUCH more than just saying Mass! When my mother was dying in the hospital, we asked our parish priest to administer the Last Rites. He was so sweet, he managed to squeeze in about fifteen minutes before he had to go to a memorial service. There was no time for counseling the bereaved family!

Originally posted by hope
To answer your question about Divorce. I would assume that the Priests would be treated the same as other Catholics are treated by the Church..... I would assume their would be "Annulments" granted to Priests if their marriage did not work out...... Priest are human..... They make mistakes.....

Hoo, boy, where do I start? An "Annulment" is NOT a divorce. A divorce is a civil action ending a marriage. Years ago, before the law would grant a divorce, blame would have to be placed on one party or another, and it was a messy, hateful battle. Now that the laws have made it easier, though, it doesn't mean it's any better. There's the division of property, child custody, health insurance, and on and on. A Church Annulment is an investigation by the Catholic Church, a special committee reviews the vows between the husband and wife. There is no "blame" placed, no division of property, no child custody assigned. The investigation is to see if a valid, sacramental marriage existed. The committee has to crawl inside the minds of the two people and decipher their intentions at the time of the marriage. It's like a psychoanalysis of the marriage. And annulments aren't parceled out like prizes in a cereal box. If your marriage goes down the tubes, you have to go through the LEGAL dissolution, and also the religious dissolution.

Originally posted by hope
I would rather have a happy, honest, loving, spirtual Priest than one that is unhappy

What makes you think that the priests who serve in your parish are unhappy? Just because a few priests go on TV doesn't mean they speak for all. Every single parish I've belonged to I've found loving, caring, compassionate priests, completely, wholly dedicated to serving God.


Marriage isn't for everybody, Hope. Just because you have found your happiness in being a wife and mother doesn't mean that every person needs to have the same thing. Marriage is very, very serious business, too. So is the priesthood. Every single man who is a priest in the Catholic Church today knew what the Church required of him. Nobody was hijacked or shanghaied into the Seminary. And nobody handcuffs them to the altar, either. If a priest decides that serving God is no longer his vocation, he can be asked to released from his duties. He then will be perfectly able to marry in the Church, and if he so desires, he can work in any of the numerous lay-ministries. Nothing stops him from that. You're going to find, though, that the majority of priests who ask to be released are NOT doing it out of any desire for marriage or family. Most likely, they leave because of a crisis of FAITH, and feel they can no longer serve as God's ministers.

Having personal opinions are fine, Hope. But ventilating against Church teachings because you personally don't agree with them is not productive, and it impairs your ability to serve as a "witness for Christ." I myself disagree with things I see around me in the Church, but I figure my opinion is between me and God. In my twenty-plus years as a Catholic, my opinion has changed markedly in many ways. Sometimes it takes a WHILE before I can blink the obstruction from my eyes and see things God's way. My function as a Catholic is to support my Church and share my love for God.

Do check out that link I posted about "Preachers' Kids." There's also information about Preachers' Wives, and the stresses they endure. That is something you haven't even touched on. If a priest were married, his first and foremost duty would be to God and the Church. He will be called to abandon his family over and over again, there's no choice for him in that. And who will have to pick up the pieces? His wife. His wife will be the one to play both mother and father to the children.

And Hope, I've dealt with that experience FIRST HAND. My husband retired after twenty years in the Army. While he was Active Duty, the Army came first. The Army tells him when to eat, when to sleep, when to come home, when to wake up... if the family has a problem and the Army doesn't want to accommodate it, TOUGH. You try being 8000 miles from home and have your infant son hospitalized because of meningitis, and the Army won't release your husband so he can stand at your side!!


Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[Religious Crisis]

Too many long posts, it hurts my eye to read it all. I know that they are that long so that you can get out what you have to say but...

 

[hopeee]

Vow, I agree Marriage is not for everyone. But, Celibacy is not for everyone either.
I don't think it is fair to generalize people in catagories or the what if's ...... Sure anything could happen? What happens if my kid's go on drugs? Or I become a Stripper? You can go blue in the face with all the what if's ..... Do you really think a Priest would marry a Stripper? What kind of "values" would the Priest have to have a stripper raise his kids? And he is suppose to be the Rock, and spiritual adviser of the Church? I give the priests more credit than that... If people go to Priests for marriage counseling; I sure hope they wouldn't be dumb enough to marry a stripper! I think that whole scenario is a little far fetched....
I don't think it is fair to say that if you are a Minister and you have kids they will be bad and take drugs..... This is just not true.... There are so many wonderful Pastors, Mininsters, out there.... And yes Vow, they do have wonderful families too; and their kids are not on drugs...... Drugs can happen to anyone...... no matter what "profession" the kid's parents have........ I know wonderful kids that grew up with a dad who was a Lutheren Pastor.... The kids had wonderful morals, and were always very friendly.... They always voluntered their time helping people. They loved to help their Dad out with Charities.... Sure, there are probably some kids that took drugs who had fathers as Ministers..... But they probably would of took drugs if there Dad had another career. There are many reasons why people take drugs.......
I bet you can find a website that helps children who were sexually abused by Priests. Does this mean that all Priests are bad? Of course not.......
Deacons can marry and have kids.... Does this mean their kids are on drugs or their wives are strippers? Does this mean that since Deacons can have a family, they won't have energy to perform marriage ceremonies in mass, or perform baptisms? I don't think so..... I am really trying very hard to see your point...... but I think your reasons are "generlizing" situations and using the "what if" this happened.... You can't plan life that way or live like that..... Why don't we just agree to disagree? These "essays" are getting quite long, and I think we just see things in a different perspective...... Hope

 

[hopeee]

Vow, I agree Marriage is not for everyone. But, Celibacy is not for everyone either.
I don't think it is fair to generalize people in catagories or the what if's ...... Sure anything could happen? What happens if my kid's go on drugs? Or I become a Stripper? You can go blue in the face with all the what if's ..... Do you really think a Priest would marry a Stripper? What kind of "values" would the Priest have to have a stripper raise his kids? And he is suppose to be the Rock, and spiritual adviser of the Church? I give the priests more credit than that... If people go to Priests for marriage counseling; I sure hope they wouldn't be dumb enough to marry a stripper! I think that whole scenario is a little far fetched....
I don't think it is fair to say that if you are a Minister and you have kids they will be bad and take drugs..... This is just not true.... There are so many wonderful Pastors, Mininsters, out there.... And yes Vow, they do have wonderful families too; and their kids are not on drugs...... Drugs can happen to anyone...... no matter what "profession" the kid's parents have........ I know wonderful kids that grew up with a dad who was a Lutheren Pastor.... The kids had wonderful morals, and were always very friendly.... They always voluntered their time helping people. They loved to help their Dad out with Charities.... Sure, there are probably some kids that took drugs who had fathers as Ministers..... But they probably would of took drugs if there Dad had another career. There are many reasons why people take drugs.......
I bet you can find a website that helps children who were sexually abused by Priests. Does this mean that all Priests are bad? Of course not.......
Deacons can marry and have kids.... Does this mean their kids are on drugs or their wives are strippers? Does this mean that since Deacons can have a family, they won't have energy to perform marriage ceremonies in mass, or perform baptisms? I don't think so..... I am really trying very hard to see your point...... but I think your reasons are "generlizing" situations and using the "what if" this happened.... You can't plan life that way or live like that..... Personally, I find it to be Discriminating married people.... Could you imagine if on Job Applications the requirement was: We only hire Non-Married People? Yeah, that would open a whole bag of beans.... Married people would be discriminated, because they were married and had families.....; and Companies don't want to hire people who might have too many stresses and responsibilities of other family members; right? What if a hospital was looking to hire a Doctor. Do you think it is fair for the hospital to hire only NON- Married Doctors? Because from your point of view, if the hospital hires a Doctor that is Married, and has kids, he will not be able to do his job adequately. Isn't this what you are saying? Oh, and what happens if the Doctor's kids are on drugs? And what happens if the Doctor's Wife becomes a drug addict herself? Why don't we just agree to disagree? These "essays" are getting quite long, and I think we just see things in a different perspective...... Hope

 

[hopeee]

Hi Vow. One more thing and then I will get off my soap box...... Priests might move from Parish to Parish every 10 years. But think of all the times "families" in general move, because one of the parent's got a job transfer.... I know this one family that moves every 3 years, because the husband works for Ford, and gets transferred. Our friends husband works for the McDondald's Corporation, and just got transferred to CA. Does this mean he shouldn't have kids? Hope

 

[hopeee]

Opps! I just noticed tha one of my posts was doubled...... The second long post is they one that I wanted to submit... I added things in the last paragraph.... Sorry for the confusion..... Hope

 

[VOW]

Hope, please take a look....

YOU are the one who has been making vast generalizations. Instead of arguing with all of the points of Catholicism that you disagree with, put all that energy into finding what you DO agree with, and focus on that.

The Church isn't going to change to suit Hope. It's not going to change to suit VOW, either. But by airing all of your "alleged grievances" in a public forum, you are giving the impression that the vast majority of Catholics are unhappy. And I sincerely do NOT think you have any supportive evidence beyond your own opinions.

Instead of arguing with everything I have presented to you, open your mind, open your heart to what I have said. Do you honestly think the Church hasn't taken all of your thoughts into consideration? Hon, there is nothing new under the sun! You aren't coming up with revelations that haven't been heard before.

Don't tear down. Build up.

When your husband comes home from work, do you immediately start bugging him about all the things that went wrong during the day? Do you blame him for everything that has been a point of contention in your marriage? When you visit friends, do you do nothing but gripe about him, and tell them how much you think he should change, to make you happy, to suit what YOU believe?

Or do you accept him and love him as he is?

Think about it.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[ZooMom]

Bottom line is that priests take vows knowing what they are agreeing to and doing it of their own free will. And doing it gladly.

The discipline of celibacy is there for a reason. For the good of the Church and even for the good of the priests. All the reasons have been stated.

Do you have any legitimate reason for objecting to priests not being married? Or more to the point, do you have any legitimate reason to believe that priests are taking vows of celibacy against their will, thereby subjecting themselves involuntarily to a life of bachelorhood? It's not like this is a surprise that is sprung on them at the last minute. They are fully cognizant while discerning their vocations that this will be required, and if any feel that it is not something that they can accept, then as VOW said there are many other ministerial positions in the Church that DO NOT require celibacy. They are more than free to pursue these vocations, and even encouraged to, if they feel that God has called them to matrimony.

 

[VOW]

To Hope:

I have asked you several times to either PM me or email me. I really don't like taking someone to task in a public forum. But you really need to curb your attacks on the Church which you say you love so much. You don't see Protestants posting gripes about their churches: "Why do Baptists feel they have to completely immerse someone, anyway," or "Who decided to call it Presbyterian, anyway?" If you have what you feel are legitimate concerns, you should find a forum somewhere on the Internet where you can air your beliefs with like-minded individuals. This is a place for people to educate each other about their faiths. It's hard enough to keep emotions in check with the huge divisions in Christianity.

You are only seeing things from Hope's viewpoint. EVERYTHING I have given you is not MY PERSONAL view, but from the wealth of my years on earth, from reading everything I can get my hands on, and from completely immersing myself in my faith, learning everything I can about my Church.

Discuss. Learn. DON'T judge from your opinion.

This is the BODY of Christ, not the little tiny amoebas swimming in the Primordial Soup.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[hopeee]

Vow, you are the one who is upset with me, because I disagreed with you.... You don't have an open mind.... You just tell me that I am not opening my heart enough to the truth when I don't agree with you on a topic..... I am not bashing The Catholic Church... This forum is for Christians to discuss Catholic Beliefs..... No where does it say on this Forum that you have to "agree" with all of the beliefs...... This forum is open for discussions... I am sorry that you feel that my posts should not be on this forum, because they differ from your opinion...... I don't want to send you an email or private message... I don't want to give my email to anyone.... This is my perogative.... I am not trying to divide the Church... Now you are getting paranoid.. Maybe you need to take your own advice and not "judge" others? I am not judging you... That's wonderful that you think Priests should stay single. But, It is also ok for me to express my thoughts and opinions on this subject.... You know someone mentioned here, that if people try to make you agree with every little thing and won't let you disagree; that defines the attitudes of a "Cult"....(brainwashing)! Catholics should not be afraid to talk about the "Challenges" their Religion or faith faces with other people..... Hope

 

[VOW]

To Hope:

Show me ONE POST where someone has accepted your "viewpoints" on things where you disagree with the Church.


~VOW

 

[ZooMom]

hope.

Activating your PM option has nothing to do with your email. It merely gives other posters the ability to send you private messages in this forum. Your personal email address will not be visible. Of course you don't have to activate it, but it does come in handy for private communications.