Priesthood in the Lutheran view?

[Athanasias]

I have a question about Lutheran ecclesiology namely priesthood in the Lutheran view. I understand that Lutherans do hold to a universal priesthood as St. Peter shows as we are all priest and the Catholic Church and all other denominations also hold to. I also understand that Dr. Luther did not hold to a ministerial priesthood. My question is this.

Would I be in error to say that the Lutheran Church holds to the universal priesthood of all believers(1 Peter 2:9) and the high priesthood of Christ(Heb 3:1) but not in the middle ministerial priesthood as Catholics, Orthodox, and Episcopalians/Anglicans Christians do?

Also is there a teaching in the Lutheran Church that the pastors of a parish when absolving sins in worship or when consecrating the elements of bread and wine act in the person of Christ?

Just curious thank you very much and God bless you always!

In Jesus through Mary,
Athanasias

 

[bach90]

There is no sacrificial/mediational/intercessional Priesthood in the New Testament (Hebrews 9-10).

There is the priesthood of all believers. A Christian, by virtue of his Baptism, is a member of this priesthood (1 Peter 2:9). One participates in it by prayer and spiritual sacrifices. There is no "caste" or "spiritual hierarchy" where you have different ranks of Christians. This false belief is expressed two ways. In the RCC and EO Churches, it is expressed by priests being higher than the laity, bishops higher than the priests, and the pope or patriarch at the top of the heap (not merely in dignity, you want to submit to your overseers and respect them of course, but that their souls are actually different from the laity, marked by an indelible seal). In Pentecostal and other Churches, it's expressed when there are those "regular" Christians who are merely water-Baptized and the "super Christians" who are "baptized in the Holy Spirit." Both of these are false teachings.

There is however the Office of the Holy Ministry/Office of Preaching/Priesthood of the New Testament. This has been established for the preaching of the Gospel and the administration of the Sacraments. It is necessary for the Church. Lutherans in America tend to avoid the word Priesthood for some reason, but it's a completely acceptable term used in Augustana and Concordia, so long as it's not meant to understand that the Priest/Pastor is offering a sacrifice to God for the forgiveness of sins. The Pastor administers or presides over the Divine Service which is God giving you his gifts in Word (through the Pastor's preaching) and Sacrament (through the Word joined with bread and wine).

Here is how you have a connection to God in Rome and the East:
You---> your priest ---> his bishop ---> the pope ---> the Saints ---> Mary ---> Jesus ---> God the Father

If you don't acknowledge all of those links in between you and God, you can't reach him.

The Biblical (Lutheran) view:
You ---> Jesus ---> God the Father. They both send the Holy Spirit through Word and Sacrament.

God himself comes to us through his Word and Sacrament, that is how he has chosen to deal with humanity.

 

[Athanasias]

There is no sacrificial/mediational/intercessional Priesthood in the New Testament (Hebrews 9-10).

There is the priesthood of all believers. A Christian, by virtue of his Baptism, is a member of this priesthood (1 Peter 2:9). One participates in it by prayer and spiritual sacrifices. There is no "caste" or "spiritual hierarchy" where you have different ranks of Christians. This false belief is expressed two ways. In the RCC and EO Churches, it is expressed by priests being higher than the laity, bishops higher than the priests, and the pope or patriarch at the top of the heap (not merely in dignity, you want to submit to your overseers and respect them of course, but that their souls are actually different from the laity, marked by an indelible seal). In Pentecostal and other Churches, it's expressed when there are those "regular" Christians who are merely water-Baptized and the "super Christians" who are "baptized in the Holy Spirit." Both of these are false teachings.

There is however the Office of the Holy Ministry/Office of Preaching/Priesthood of the New Testament. This has been established for the preaching of the Gospel and the administration of the Sacraments. It is necessary for the Church. Lutherans in America tend to avoid the word Priesthood for some reason, but it's a completely acceptable term used in Augustana and Concordia, so long as it's not meant to understand that the Priest/Pastor is offering a sacrifice to God for the forgiveness of sins. The Pastor administers or presides over the Divine Service which is God giving you his gifts in Word (through the Pastor's preaching) and Sacrament (through the Word joined with bread and wine).

Here is how you have a connection to God in Rome and the East:
You---> your priest ---> his bishop ---> the pope ---> the Saints ---> Mary ---> Jesus ---> God the Father

If you don't acknowledge all of those links in between you and God, you can't reach him.

The Biblical (Lutheran) view:
You ---> Jesus ---> God the Father. They both send the Holy Spirit through Word and Sacrament.

God himself comes to us through his Word and Sacrament, that is how he has chosen to deal with humanity.

Hi thanks Bach for your explanation. I found it intriguing. I am learning alot. Obviously Catholics and Lutherans dissagree on the nature of certain types of priesthood(middle ministerial) and their necessity. We all beleive in the universal priesthood of all believers. I am not sure what you mean by higher when it comes to the Catholic understanding. We would say that those called to the ministerial priesthood and those of the universal priesthood of all beleivers are interrelated. Each one in thier own special way is participating in the one priesthood of Christ. (Lumen Gentium 10, Vatican II).

I would assume that although Lutherans do not hold to a middle ministeriel priesthood, regardless they still hold to a priesthood in union with Christ that does offer sacrifice, mediation and intercession, namely the universal priesthood(1 Peter 2:4-10) of all beleivers who do offer the sacrifice of themselves(Rom 12:1) and thier prayers. These universal priesthood of all beleivers also act in mediation or intercession for one another to the Lord(1 Tim 2:1-4).

I do not think most Lutheran would dissagree with that but I could be wrong. What I think you meant by that is that you do not beleive in a ministerial priesthood that offers a Eucharistic Sacrfice. You are correct that we Catholics do teach that Bishops, Deacons, and Priest all share in a indelible mark on thier soul or a special character for each holy office given by God as each one is a different sharing in Christ one priesthood. We also teach that universal priesthood of all beleivers have also been given a special indelible mark on thier soul when they were made universal priest at baptism.

The heirarchy you listed is interesting. It is true Catholics beleive that God is a God of order and HE orders everything in the universe in a sacred order(heircharchy) reflecting his Triune beauty. This of course also includes the various participation of his people into Christ priesthood as we all share in a real participation in Christ priesthood. But some things you may not fully understand. Catholics can and always have gone directly to God when praying and offering sacrifice too. Now for public worship we also go to God through Christ in the Holy Spirit through Christ priest but we also do have the sacraments then yes we do go to a Deacon, priest, or Bishop for these but even then we teach that sacramental grace can be given by God directly without these offices or the sacraments(As they are the norms we beleive Christ set up but God and his grace is not bound by his own sacraments).

I am also glad that you do see some type of special preaching priesthood in the NT distict from that of the high priesthood of Christ and the universal priesthood of all beleivers. We are not so far apart on this issue as I once thought then. I understand that some Lutheran ministers also hear private confession and give absolution. I have been to several LCMS services where the minister does this publicaly at the beginning of service(an ancient practice still done today even in Catholic Churchs). This is another great thing we have in common.

So would you say that the issue here with the Lutheran understanding of a middle type of ministeriel priesthood is present but understood in different ways then do EO, Anglican, and Catholic Churches ? They way being perhaps that the Lutheran middle priesthood of preaching and sacraments does not see itself acting in the person of Christ through its ministry? This perhaps is why Lutheran ministeriel priesthoods do not see the Eucharist as Sacrificial act. Wheras Catholics, Anglicans, and EO's do. Am I on the right track here.


I thank you so much for taking your time out to explain these things to me. God bless you.

In Jesus through Mary,
Athanasias

 

[bach90]

Hi thanks Bach for your explanation. I found it intriguing. I am learning alot. Obviously Catholics and Lutherans dissagree on the nature of certain types of priesthood(middle ministerial) and their necessity. We all beleive in the universal priesthood of all believers. I am not sure what you mean by higher when it comes to the Catholic understanding. We would say that those called to the ministerial priesthood and those of the universal priesthood of all beleivers are interrelated. Each one in thier own special way is participating in the one priesthood of Christ. (Lumen Gentium 10, Vatican II).

I would assume that although Lutherans do not hold to a middle ministeriel priesthood, regardless they still hold to a priesthood in union with Christ that does offer sacrifice, mediation and intercession, namely the universal priesthood(1 Peter 2:4-10) of all beleivers who do offer the sacrifice of themselves(Rom 12:1) and thier prayers. These universal priesthood of all beleivers also act in mediation or intercession for one another to the Lord(1 Tim 2:1-4).

I do not think most Lutheran would dissagree with that but I could be wrong. What I think you meant by that is that you do not beleive in a ministerial priesthood that offers a Eucharistic Sacrfice. You are correct that we Catholics do teach that Bishops, Deacons, and Priest all share in a indelible mark on thier soul or a special character for each holy office given by God as each one is a different sharing in Christ one priesthood. We also teach that universal priesthood of all beleivers have also been given a special indelible mark on thier soul when they were made universal priest at baptism.

The heirarchy you listed is interesting. It is true Catholics beleive that God is a God of order and HE orders everything in the universe in a sacred order(heircharchy) reflecting his Triune beauty. This of course also includes the various participation of his people into Christ priesthood as we all share in a real participation in Christ priesthood. But some things you may not fully understand. Catholics can and always have gone directly to God when praying and offering sacrifice too. Now for public worship we also go to God through Christ in the Holy Spirit through Christ priest but we also do have the sacraments then yes we do go to a Deacon, priest, or Bishop for these but even then we teach that sacramental grace can be given by God directly without these offices or the sacraments(As they are the norms we beleive Christ set up but God and his grace is not bound by his own sacraments).

I am also glad that you do see some type of special preaching priesthood in the NT distict from that of the high priesthood of Christ and the universal priesthood of all beleivers. We are not so far apart on this issue as I once thought then. I understand that some Lutheran ministers also hear private confession and give absolution. I have been to several LCMS services where the minister does this publicaly at the beginning of service(an ancient practice still done today even in Catholic Churchs). This is another great thing we have in common.

So would you say that the issue here with the Lutheran understanding of a middle type of ministeriel priesthood is present but understood in different ways then do EO, Anglican, and Catholic Churches ? They way being perhaps that the Lutheran middle priesthood of preaching and sacraments does not see itself acting in the person of Christ through its ministry? This perhaps is why Lutheran ministeriel priesthoods do not see the Eucharist as Sacrificial act. Wheras Catholics, Anglicans, and EO's do. Am I on the right track here.


I thank you so much for taking your time out to explain these things to me. God bless you.

In Jesus through Mary,
Athanasias

Your welcome.

There's the sacrifice of praise and thanks offered by the priesthood of all believers. That's good.

Then there's the Roman sacrifice of the mass, that's absolutely rejected outright by the Lutheran Confessions. The East as well, does not (except the Uniate Churches) view the Divine Liturgy as a sacrifical act for the remission of sins. That's an idea that began around 500 A.D (when the Roman canon was composed by Gregory) and was developed by medieval thinkers. There is no sacrificial priesthood in the New Testament, only the Ministry of Word and Sacrament. Rome will never give up on the point that the mass is a true sacrifice, and we will never give up on insisting that the idea of a mass as a sacrifice for the remission of sins totally overthrows the entire Gospel.

Rome and Wittenberg would agree that there is an office instituted in the NT. It's function however is viewed in different ways. In Rome, the Priest offers the sacrifice of the mass to God for the forgiveness of sins. In Lutheranism, God gives us his gifts of Word and Sacrament in the Divine Service. To put it simply, in Rome it is man offering something to God, in Lutheranism, it is God giving his gifts to man.

All Lutheran Pastors should be urging their flock to go to Confession and Absolution. Luther says when I ask you to go to confession, I am simply asking you to be a question. Even here though, there are differences. In Rome, if you lose your Baptismal innocence, it is gone. That is, if Baptism were a ship, sin sinks that ship. You need to get on a second ship which is confession and good works In Lutheran Theology, you can't sink the ship, you might fall off, but you can get back on. The Pastor does act in the stead and by the command of the Lord Jesus Christ. Especially when he is preaching and administering the Sacraments.


I understand that Rome claims that it is going straight to Christ, but in practice this does not happen. The older absolution formulas in Confession were actually far worse than the ones used today by Rome. And no two ways about it, in Rome, you need to contribute to your own salvation. Also, as illustrated, a priest in Rome only has jurisdiction from his Bishop who only has it from the Pope. Even the opening confession of sins in Rome has you going through Mary and the saints to gain remission of sins. I also expect that Rome will soon confirm Mary as co-mediatrix, which will be a sad day indeed.

Luther, in his Babylonian Captivity of the Church never said that the Gospel was missing. His argument (very summarily) is that there's so much nonsense like works-righteousness, indulgences, and the cult of the saints covering it up that you'll probably spend all your time looking for the pure Gospel and never finding it.

On point, yes there is clearly a NT ministry which is different from the laity. It's function and raison d'etre though is understood differently. As to the traditional ordering of Bishop, Priest, and Deacon...nothing wrong with that. The idea of a "permanence" is taught in Lutheranism too. It's understood that a man is ordained for life unless he resigns (or goes apostate or something like that). I think the three-fold system has a lot of advantages personally and it is the preferred church governance in the Book of Concord. To be fair, Rome has been trying to return to the Bible in recent years. It's just never going to happen though while Justification by Faith Alone remains under anathema over there. And the sacrifice of the mass is the biggest hindrance to the preaching of Justification by Faith Alone, the two cannot (logically) exist under the same roof.

 

[Athanasias]

Your welcome.

There's the sacrifice of praise and thanks offered by the priesthood of all believers. That's good.

Then there's the Roman sacrifice of the mass, that's absolutely rejected outright by the Lutheran Confessions. The East as well, does not (except the Uniate Churches) view the Divine Liturgy as a sacrifical act for the remission of sins. That's an idea that began around 500 A.D (when the Roman canon was composed by Gregory) and was developed by medieval thinkers. There is no sacrificial priesthood in the New Testament, only the Ministry of Word and Sacrament. Rome will never give up on the point that the mass is a true sacrifice, and we will never give up on insisting that the idea of a mass as a sacrifice for the remission of sins totally overthrows the entire Gospel.

Rome and Wittenberg would agree that there is an office instituted in the NT. It's function however is viewed in different ways. In Rome, the Priest offers the sacrifice of the mass to God for the forgiveness of sins. In Lutheranism, God gives us his gifts of Word and Sacrament in the Divine Service. To put it simply, in Rome it is man offering something to God, in Lutheranism, it is God giving his gifts to man.

All Lutheran Pastors should be urging their flock to go to Confession and Absolution. Luther says when I ask you to go to confession, I am simply asking you to be a question. Even here though, there are differences. In Rome, if you lose your Baptismal innocence, it is gone. That is, if Baptism were a ship, sin sinks that ship. You need to get on a second ship which is confession and good works In Lutheran Theology, you can't sink the ship, you might fall off, but you can get back on. The Pastor does act in the stead and by the command of the Lord Jesus Christ. Especially when he is preaching and administering the Sacraments.


I understand that Rome claims that it is going straight to Christ, but in practice this does not happen. The older absolution formulas in Confession were actually far worse than the ones used today by Rome. And no two ways about it, in Rome, you need to contribute to your own salvation. Also, as illustrated, a priest in Rome only has jurisdiction from his Bishop who only has it from the Pope. Even the opening confession of sins in Rome has you going through Mary and the saints to gain remission of sins. I also expect that Rome will soon confirm Mary as co-mediatrix, which will be a sad day indeed.

Luther, in his Babylonian Captivity of the Church never said that the Gospel was missing. His argument (very summarily) is that there's so much nonsense like works-righteousness, indulgences, and the cult of the saints covering it up that you'll probably spend all your time looking for the pure Gospel and never finding it.

On point, yes there is clearly a NT ministry which is different from the laity. It's function and raison d'etre though is understood differently. As to the traditional ordering of Bishop, Priest, and Deacon...nothing wrong with that. The idea of a "permanence" is taught in Lutheranism too. It's understood that a man is ordained for life unless he resigns (or goes apostate or something like that). I think the three-fold system has a lot of advantages personally and it is the preferred church governance in the Book of Concord. To be fair, Rome has been trying to return to the Bible in recent years. It's just never going to happen though while Justification by Faith Alone remains under anathema over there. And the sacrifice of the mass is the biggest hindrance to the preaching of Justification by Faith Alone, the two cannot (logically) exist under the same roof.

Hi Bach thank you for such a engaging discussion. I appreciate your faith in Christ and your understanding of the Gospel. Ok so we are not as far off as I thought we once were as the Lutheran Church does abide by a type of middle ministerial priesthood albeit they obviously do not hold to the mass being a unbloody sacrifice. Cool!

You may be a bit confused about a few things that we Catholics do or at least how we see them. When I said we can and do pray right to God that means we do. For example in Private prayer every night I pray to the Father or to Christ Jesus or to the Holy Spirit directly and was taught this in Catholic school. If I sin I make a direct prayer to the Trinity called a act of contition. I converse with Jesus, meditate with the Holy Spirit while reading the bible or in prayer. Catholics have always done this. We do not teach that one must go to God through Mary or a saint or a priest when praying to God. In fact at mass all of our prayers begin with are made in end with the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Now we do have a different understanding of the body of Christ and its functions and that is where the saints come in but they are not required but optional as intercessors. I love praying to Mary but I do not ever have to to be a good Catholic. I pray to the Lord directly all the time too. I think this is something that many non catholics innocently do not understand about Catholic teaching and the way devout Catholics live.

The confessional prayer at the beginning that you mentioned that does ask for Mary and the Saints intercession to pray for us also is not the only option and most parishes today simple omit that prayer(Not that its a bad prayer I love that prayer ie the confiteor) and after sins are meditated on in most parishes we simply ask Jesus and say Lord have mercy Christ have Mercy then absolution is given. So that is what I mean when I said that.We really do have real relationships with God. Now many of us also have relationships with his mother or a saints too.

Now I do not want to debate as we both dissagree on these issues but I can tell you that the early Church eastern fathers included certainly did teach the Mass was a Sacrifice an unbloody oblation that did remit sins. This can be found hundreds of year before 500 A.D. As a Catholic I do beleive that the Eucharist is a sacrifice that does forgive sins but I hold to it becasue I beleive it was taught by Jesus and St. Paul that way. Instrea of arguing this point I admit we dissagree on this theology.
If you want to see a Catholic theologians(mine) arguments against a Lutheran for the Mass being a sacrifice that forgives sins please study my formal debate here : http://www.christianforums.com/t7250921/

I am not sure why you would think the mass is a good work or that if we sin we have to not only confess our sin but also do good works to be saved. The mass as we understand it is not a work we do. Nor is baptism. Both are commanded by Christ to "do this". So when we do those things he commanded us to do he applies the graces of his cross through those sacraments which are his work not ours. If I go to confession and confess my mortal sins once absolution is given I am saved. If I die I would not go to hell. So I am not sure if you have a correct understanding of our theology. But I will let you elaborate on that and we can further discuss it.

I could be wrong but I thought I had read that Lutherans also beleived like Catholics that a saved person could fall from faith (As Hebrews notes) and go to hell if he dies unrepentant. I didn't think Lutherans were once saved always saved infact about 10 years ago I read a Lutheran document (I will have to look for it) that seemed to suggest that falls can happen. Am I incorrect?

When you say "the Pastor does act in the stead and by the command of the Lord Jesus Christ. Especially when he is preaching and administering the Sacraments."

What do you mean? Is it similiar to our teaching that the Pastor/priest acts in persona Christi or in the person of Christ when preaching and administering the sacraments? Very curious about this.

Now its true we do hold Mary as mediatrix of all graces and I personally love that title. I know we dissagree here but I see this as very biblical. I am not trying to debate here. Mariology is one of my favorite subjects to teach high schoolers as I used to teach. Sometimes we should just have a ecumencial study of Mary and her Doctrines and titles. You may be surprised to at least see how we biblically and historically view it.

I think alot of Lutherans may have a mistaken idea about what Catholics teach about salvation. I know one Luthran minister who accused us of pelagainism and semi-pelagianism but we do not teach either in fact the Catholic Church has condemned both of those theologies as heresies. I do not want to debate here about Justification by faith alone but lets say that many Lutherans today who do ecumenical talks with our Church are realizing that historically we did not condemn all views of faith alone but just one view of faith alone in Trent. Instead of debating this I had a deep biblical discussion/debate on faith alone in the Catholic sense that can be read here: http://www.christianforums.com/t7295925/

Well I have enjoyed this friendly dialog and have learned much from you my brother. I look forward to hearing from you on your next post. May the Lord bless you always!

In Jesus through Mary,
Athanasias