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Preterist
- Thread starter Emma!
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We have studied it in our Bible Study, and our Pastor believes it. We also had a guest speaker come to the church and teach on it.
Just a couple of questions if thats ok
Have you looked into when Revelations was written, what did you come up with (in favour of the earlier time frame)?
Do you believe that Jesus will still come again (other than at 70AD)?
Do you believe in 'the third day' (full manifestations of the Sons of God), and this is a way that He has returned in us?
Also i dont really understand the bit about the martyrs, why God would bring judgement on Jerusalem because of that. And why would the martyrs want revenge on them for killing them? Shouldnt they have forgiven them instead?
Thanks
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EchoPneuma
Well-Known Member
We have studied it in our Bible Study, and our Pastor believes it. We also had a guest speaker come to the church and teach on it.
I must know....what kind of church do you attend? Where I come from, preterism is considered heresy of the worst sort. I am a retired Southern Baptist preacher.
It's hard to say when it was written. The only evidence AGAINST Revelation being written before 70AD is an obscure statement by Irenaeus. Here it is:
"We will not, however, incur the risk of pronouncing positively as to the name of the Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him who beheld the apocalyptic vision. For that was seen no very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian's reign".(Against Heresies 5:30:3)
This is open to interpretation. Some say he is referring to John being seen as late as the time of Domitian and others say it was the vision that was seen that late. It's not clear WHICH he is talking about. But this is the ONLY piece of evidence that those who say the books was written after 70AD give....this ONE statement. There is nothing else.
Clement of Alexandria (185-215) however makes this statement:
"When after the death of the tyrant he removed from the island of Patmos to Ephesus, he used to journey by request to the neighboring districts of Gentiles, in some places to appoint bishops, in others to regulate whole churches."
The question here is WHO IS THE TYRANT...that Clement is referring to? Some say it was Nero and some say Domitian.....but there's a little evidence that it WAS Nero.
Apollonius of Tyana directly says of Nero, that he was "commonly called a Tyrant" (and he also refers to him as a "beast"!)
Nero fit the definition of "tyrannical" of a certainty: He "put to death so many innocent men" (Tacitus); "the destroyer of the human race", "the poison of the world" (Pliny the Elder); "cruel nature" (Tacitus); "cruelty of disposition" (Suetonius); "cruel and bloody tyranny" (Juvenal). He committed acts of perversion and atrocity so nasty that we won't be printing them here. Nero was heavily mocked and hated in later works as a cruel and vindictive leader, and was widely recognized as the first Emperor to persecute Christians.
So I would say the external evidence leans more towards a PRE 70AD date since the ONLY piece of evidence for a POST 70AD date is the one statement of Ireaneus which is ambiguous. Also the INTERNAL evidence points heavily to a PRE 70AD date.
The preponderance of evidence points to pre 70AD.
Here's a more thorough article on this information:
http://www.tektonics.org/esch/revdate.html
He's already here. He returned from heaven in AD70 as the Life Giving Spirit to indwell His kingdom within the hearts of men. He's been here ever since. So, no I don't believe that He is going to leave again and then come back again. The Second Coming was around AD70 and I don't see a third coming in the bible.
What is "the third day"? Never heard of it. Is it a certain belief about the return?
According to Jesus, that generation of Jews were held responsible for ALL the righteous blood that had ever been spilt, since that was the generation that was given the most spiritual light....they were the generation that actually got to see the Messiah in the flesh, witness His miracles first hand and hear His teaching with their own ears...and they STILL rejected Him and crucified Him. Almost ALL the unrepentant Jews perished during the 7 year war with Rome and over a million died in Jerusalem alone when it was burned. Josephus recounts these events.
"To him who much is given....much is required"
And why would the martyrs want revenge on them for killing them? Shouldnt they have forgiven them instead?
Thanks
I suppose so...but John is just recounting what he sees and hears....and I guess those who were martyred wanted God to avenge them....after all, God DID say...."Vengeance is mine. I will repay saith the Lord".....they are just taking Him at His word.
If you really want to do some serious study of Preterism from EVERY angle, visit the Preterist Archive. It's the foremost source for preterist research on the web. Here's a link to a couple of things.:
Over 100 Preterist Q&A from Preterist Cosmos:
http://www.preteristcosmos.com/questionsandanswers.html
Preterist Archive homepage:
http://preteristarchive.com/
and if you really want to get the low down on preterism from a Baptist preacher who lost his church because he embraced the belief, here is Todd Dennis' testimony of the evidence that changed his mind. It's a long read...but well worth the time. He is very thorough. It's called "Dear Dispensationalist Friend"...
http://preteristarchive.com/Preterist/Idealism/Authors/Dennis/dennis-todd_p_09.html
Good luck....blessings
Echo
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yes it is heresy here too... i go to a CRC church (its a pentecostal one). Our Pastor goes out on a limb often with what God is telling him and the leadership to share with the church... some think its off the wall, but most see God in it and His truth. Its really a great church, i have grown so much being there... what a blessing!Thankyou for all that info and the links that you gave me, i will check them out for sure.
niceNo... its all about God in His fullness in us some examples:
We are already Holy because He has made us Holy and complete in Him.
We are forgiven once for all time, (we dont need to keep asking Him to forgive us).
We are all kings and priests because we are no longer under the levitical priest hood.
The finished work of Christ, the devil has TOTALLY been defeated (yet another reason that the other 'end times' views dont seem to work so well).
When people look at us they are looking at Christ, we are seated IN Christ at the right hand of God. He is IN us and we are IN Him...
Sum-up its the whole fullness of Christ in us, we are who He created us to be which is perfect through Jesus.... (so in a big way He has returned in us too)
If you want some info i can give you some, its kind of hard to sum up.
Thanks for all your info, does help to hear others takes on all this
I am looking forward to reading those links you gave me!
Bless you!
Oh can i ask how you came across this preterist view?
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EchoPneuma
Well-Known Member
Emma, I came to be a preterist because God opened my eyes to it. I was getting ready to teach a series on "The Day of the Lord" as spoken about in Malachi...and as I studied and researched it from all angles, I soon came to see that the "Day of the Lord" had already happened sometime during the apostolic age...and I began to read Josephus and look at the words of Jesus for what they ACTUALLY said, instead of what I had been TOLD they meant....
Anyway, I ended up asking God "God, what I seem to be seeing is that Jesus has already returned way back when Jerusalem was destroyed.....IS THAT TRUE?"
I didn't want to believe it because I knew a belief like that was considered heresy, and it would mean the end of my life as a Baptist preacher and teacher...but I listened to God and continued researching and studying....and in the end God revealed to me that it was true....and I am now an EX (retired) Southern Baptist preacher...and God has competely taken me out of organized religion altogether. It's a whole new road for me, but God is taking me somewhere, so it's OK.
Blessings...
Anyway, I ended up asking God "God, what I seem to be seeing is that Jesus has already returned way back when Jerusalem was destroyed.....IS THAT TRUE?"
I didn't want to believe it because I knew a belief like that was considered heresy, and it would mean the end of my life as a Baptist preacher and teacher...but I listened to God and continued researching and studying....and in the end God revealed to me that it was true....and I am now an EX (retired) Southern Baptist preacher...and God has competely taken me out of organized religion altogether. It's a whole new road for me, but God is taking me somewhere, so it's OK.
Blessings...
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Praise God!
Please dont take this as a criticism (because its certainly not intended that way)... if you knew that this was true, how come you didnt stay to show the church this?
Oh and also i read your online profile and you mentioned that there have been a few doctrinal changes that God has shown you including this one (im assuming). I was wondering what the other ones are?
(sorry about all the questions, just love hearing from others on something like this
).
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I am somewhere between a full preterist and a partial preterist. I am of the school of J.S. Russell. If you haven't read his book "The Parousia" then you should; it will answer so many questions.
Seeker
Seeker
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Our Pastor suggested that book, so we will have to get hold of it.
What parts hold you back from full preterist? (if you dont mind me asking).
Thanks
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Hi Emma,
I was into this before I became a full Preterist and I still believe in Jesus Christ manifesting Himself through us as we walk in the Spirit and abide in His word.
I'm not sure about the third day typology anymore because of the third day begining after 2000 years since Christ was in the flesh. One day is suppose to represent 1000 years and we are about to enter into the third day or third set of 1000 years.
I had figured this out by myself and at the time did not realize other had swollowed this belief. It is taken from
Hosea 6:
1 Come, and let us return to the LORD; For He has torn, but He will heal us; He has stricken, but He will bind us up. [wash my mouth] 2 After two days He will revive us; On the third day He will raise us up, That we may live in His sight.
3 Let us know, Let us pursue the knowledge of the LORD. His going forth is established as the morning; He will come to us like the rain, Like the latter [and] former rain to the ear
I can honsetly say all scripture was fullfilled in AD70 making this third day belief obsolete and most likely refered to Christ death and resurrection that we are partakers of.
The other thing that I remember was the measurements of the temple in Rev.11. The outer court was 1500 cubics representing 1500 years from Moses to Christ. The Holy Place was 2000 cubics representing the quote: Church age. The Holy of Holies was 1000 cubics representing the Kingdom age.
Being a full preterist I now see that only two ages were represented in scripture. The first age was the age Jesus was in and the second final age began in AD70 when the old covenant system was destroyed which was when the new heaven and earth began.
If you have any links to any group who believes in this third day manifestation I would appreciate it.
God Bless
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EchoPneuma
Well-Known Member
I did. It didn't go well. It was a hardcore fundamentalist Southern Baptist Church.....heck, Jesus Himself would have probably been denied deaconship there.
...but it was all I had ever known....that is until God whacked me upside the head and got my attention. I am now a universalist....whereas for over 30 years I preached and taught eternal torment...that was another kick in the behind God gave me. WHen He started shakin' me, He didn't stop til my teeth rattled.
I also no longer hold to the docrtrine of the inerrancy and infallibility of the bible. I now believe that GOD is the only one who is inerrant and infallible....and to hold a physical book up on a par with God Himself is akin to idolatry. God alone is perfect.....not a book, no matter how much we revere it.
(sorry about all the questions, just love hearing from others on something like this
No problem. Ask away.....and I will do my best to give you an understandable answer....
Blessings...
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EchoPneuma
Well-Known Member
J. Stuart Russell was a brilliant man and deep thinker. I read "The Parousia" last year. It was incredibly deep and detailed...and every page was so chock full of research and information that it was hard to get through....but I'm glad I waded through it. I don't see how someone can read that book and NOT believe in preterism...it's that persuasive.
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I have one question, Do preterists also believe in universal salvation?
I have been reading the archives and I haven't come across that topic yet.
I have been reading the archives and I haven't come across that topic yet.
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Hi Emma,
I was into this before I became a full Preterist and I still believe in Jesus Christ manifesting Himself through us as we walk in the Spirit and abide in His word.
I'm not sure about the third day typology anymore because of the third day begining after 2000 years since Christ was in the flesh. One day is suppose to represent 1000 years and we are about to enter into the third day or third set of 1000 years.
I had figured this out by myself and at the time did not realize other had swollowed this belief. It is taken from
Hosea 6:
1 Come, and let us return to the LORD; For He has torn, but He will heal us; He has stricken, but He will bind us up. [wash my mouth] 2 After two days He will revive us; On the third day He will raise us up, That we may live in His sight.
3 Let us know, Let us pursue the knowledge of the LORD. His going forth is established as the morning; He will come to us like the rain, Like the latter [and] former rain to the ear
I can honsetly say all scripture was fullfilled in AD70 making this third day belief obsolete and most likely refered to Christ death and resurrection that we are partakers of.
The other thing that I remember was the measurements of the temple in Rev.11. The outer court was 1500 cubics representing 1500 years from Moses to Christ. The Holy Place was 2000 cubics representing the quote: Church age. The Holy of Holies was 1000 cubics representing the Kingdom age.
Being a full preterist I now see that only two ages were represented in scripture. The first age was the age Jesus was in and the second final age began in AD70 when the old covenant system was destroyed which was when the new heaven and earth began.
If you have any links to any group who believes in this third day manifestation I would appreciate it.
God Bless
Hey thanks for your post... i would need to look into all the timing some more in this (preterist) context... regardless of the timing of it all though, the principals and fruits of all the 'third day' teaching would not change.
Also the third day isnt based just on that verse, it is all thoughout the Bible, for example the things that i posted i could quote all day on verses to back them.
Something else to think on though, im still wading through all the preterist stuff...
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EchoPneuma
Wow you really would have been kicked out with all this heresy!
got it. It may be a bit different here, there is another church that i know here that preaches the full preterist view (the pastor loves it!).
There are only a few very 'tight' baptist churches around here, the main are a bit more flexable now, which is good (not the the preterist point though!).
).
Wow you really would have been kicked out with all this heresy!
I did. It didn't go well. It was a hardcore fundamentalist Southern Baptist Church.....heck, Jesus Himself would have probably been denied deaconship there.
got it. It may be a bit different here, there is another church that i know here that preaches the full preterist view (the pastor loves it!).There are only a few very 'tight' baptist churches around here, the main are a bit more flexable now, which is good (not the the preterist point though!).
Yeah i have been reading a couple of threads around here about that... i can see how that fits in with Gods loving nature (since He is love) but how does it fit in with Him giving us free will? Also the places where it says you have to confess Him as Lord with your mouth etc... and what about the parable of the vine and the branches and all that? I know some verse may hint at Him wanting all saved but there seem to be more that dont. Im not trying to change your mind, im just asking some questions for me... i think its always good to be thinking and be challanged etcI am now a universalist....whereas for over 30 years I preached and taught eternal torment...that was another kick in the behind God gave me. WHen He started shakin' me, He didn't stop til my teeth rattled.
I get where you are comming from here too, but if God is compleatly in control (He is) then as if He couldnt make it, and keep it infallible (thats if He wanted to do), its just so well done and perfectly ties everything together that it cant have any fault (except for the NIV
).
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The universal salvation view is not a part of Preterist view... but there will be people who will believe both (like EchoPneuma).
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