Preterism-phony as a Ford Corvette

parousia70 said:

Or like manner doesn’t mean that and instead means something else.



Right… it just conveniently “exactly the same” in the ways you want it to be to support your view, but different in ways when “exactly the same” doesn’t support your view….
Amazing!

The text is clear, He was to return in like manner as the aspotles saw him go "into Heaven"
How did Jesus enter heaven?

"Out of their Sight", Hidden from their eyes by a cloud. Acts 1:9

Plus, Jesus Christ most certainly came in like manner as He left, in Fulfillment of Acts 1:11, on at least two occasions, as testified by the apostolic witness.

It happened to Paul on the road to Damascus (Acts 9:1-9) and to Stephen at His stoning.(Acts 7:54-56)
You are of course free to reject the apostolic testimony of these post ascension, "in like manner" comings in fulfillment of Acts 1:11.

I'm inclined to believe the apostolic witness.

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Did the road to Damascus include up and over the Mt. Of Olives?

Timtofly said:

Short time is the end of 6000 years. It is no longer 6000 years in length, a long time, but only years left, a short time.

You cannot say the short time at the end of 6000 years is the same thing as loosed for a little season after being bound for 1000 years. Context explains the difference.

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Your presumption (unbacked by scripture) is that the "short time" of Revelation 12:12 is at the end of 6,000 years. That's not what Rev. 12:12 says. John wrote to THAT generation, warning them, "Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! For the devil IS COME DOWN UNTO YOU, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a SHORT TIME." If we pay attention to the present tense in which John was writing, then the devil RIGHT THEN in John's days was operating on earth, knowing that he had only THAT SHORT TIME left in which to operate. Are you saying that in John's days of writing Revelation that almost 6,000 years of history had elapsed? This is an honest question, since there are many and varied theories as to how long mankind has inhabited the planet, and I don't know where you stand on this issue.

As for the "little season" following the millennium in Rev. 20:3 when Satan is loosed, (which you do not agree is the same as the "short time" of Rev. 12:12), we are told quite plainly in Revelation 20:5 that the millennium is "finished", at the same time when the "First Resurrection" occurred, with the "remnant of the dead" coming to life again.

Christ and the Matthew 27 Firstfruits saints (aka the "remnant") composed the "FIRST resurrection" in AD 33. That means the "little season" of Satan being loosed (JUST AFTER the millennium had expired) BEGAN just after the AD 33 First resurrection occurred.

Of course, all this is dependent upon correctly identifying what the "FIRST resurrection" is. If you can't recognize that Christ raising Himself and the Matthew 27 saints from the dead was the event called the "FIRST resurrection", then we are at an impasse.

sovereigngrace said:

Every eye of mankind in the entire globe is going to see Him when He comes.

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That is NOT what the Revelation 1:7 verse says. It says that SPECIFICALLY or NAMELY "those who pierced Him" would be doing the mourning when they saw Christ return. And they would be composed of those "tribes of the earth" - Jewish tribes - which in God's estimation have not been a factor in the world ever since the AD 70 era burned up all their genealogical records. God intended the Jewish tribal lineages to go extinct after AD 70. Even Paul wrote that giving heed to "endless genealogies" was a vain thing, and should be avoided in those days. Meaning this prophecy in Revelation 1:7 had to have been fulfilled when there were still Jewish tribes around.

sovereigngrace said:

The Scriptures talk much about the unexpected nature of the second coming of Christ but nothing of a secret coming. This is clearly an arrival that will shake the world.

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Yes, it WAS an event that shook the world. Hebrews 12:26 tells us just WHEN that "shaking" process was going to take place. "Whose voice then shook the earth: but NOW he hath promised, saying Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven."

The single word "NOW" in that verse, spoken to the Hebrews first-century audience (written around AD 64), was a "shaking" experience relevant for THEIR TIME - not 2,000 years or so down the road. Unless you want to redefine what the word "NOW" means.

Since it was going to be Jewish tribes trapped in Jerusalem seeing Christ's local, prophesied return to the Mount of Olives just across the Kidron Valley in AD 70, the starving conditions under the Roman siege ended up killing a million or more of those within the city who witnessed that return. Those 97,000 in Jerusalem left at the end who were made prisoners by the Romans ended up dying in coliseums, or in slavery spread over the Empire. Hardly conditions conducive to making records of Christ's bodily return for you to read, even if they had cared to make such a record of their own humiliating defeat by a Christ whom they had rejected.

robycop3 said:

I beg your pardon, but Scripture INDEED prophesy that the living saints shall be translated at the rapture:
1 Cor. 15:[/color=red]51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. [/color]

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I also beg your pardon, but Scripture here in I Cor. 15:51 does NOT predict a translation-type change for the LIVING. It predicts a change for the DEAD, who will be raised incorruptible by being changed from that dead, corruptible condition to an incorruptible state.

That phrase "We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed" does NOT predict that some would not die. "We shall not all sleep" means NONE of the saints would stay asleep in death, but all the dead saints would be changed to the incorruptible state in a moment, etc.

Try comparing this "We shall not all sleep" phrase in I Cor. 15:51 with "...they were not all of us" found in I John 2:19. John was writing about the antichrists that had come out from among those he was writing to. It would become obvious what they were, once they left the congregation, as not really being one of them. NONE of those who went out from among the congregation were considered to be "OF US". ALL of them were considered to be alien to the believers - no exceptions. Just like NONE of those saints Paul was writing to would remain asleep in death, but ALL of the dead saints - without exception - would be changed to the incorruptible.

eclipsenow said:

Then there's a follow up talk below on the second half of Matthew 24. The parable of the days of Noah proves that we cannot know - the people were all marrying and partying like the Noah thing was a mystery. The whole point of quoting Noah is how utterly unknowable Jesus' return really is.

Matthew 2436 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

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It seems that you consider this THEN-PRESENT REALITY in Matthew 24:36 of the people not knowing the time of Jesus's return as being the equivalent of a continuing ignorance of this time. Even in I Thess. 5:4-6, the apostle Paul told his readers, "But YE BRETHREN, ARE NOT IN DARKNESS, that that day should overtake you as a thief." They KNEW the signs to look for at that point, and were NOT in ignorance.

The very reason Revelation was written was to SHOW unto His servants the signs directly preceding Christ's imminent return to their generation. In Revelation 1:1, it says that God told this information to Jesus, who passed it to John, who was writing it to SHOW unto God's people in those days what would SOON come to pass.

Those who were deceived by the cares of this life and who were not watching were the ones caught unawares. But not the wise in 1 Thess. 5:4-6 who WERE "awake" and watching in those days. Everything those watchful believers were told was coming actually did come to pass in the order in which they were foretold. Those believers were ready, either to flee Judea and Jerusalem, or to give up their lives in martyrdom, and participate in the AD 70 resurrection. Those who "lost" their life for Christ "found" it in that year's resurrection.

I listened to a good portion of your first video link. It sounds as if the speaker recognizes that "Jerusalem surrounded by armies" WAS Daniel's "abomination of desolation" , by comparing Luke 21:20 with the other gospel accounts.

robycop3 said:

I'm in sharp disagreement. An analysis of the Greek in 1 Cor. 15;51 means in English just what it says in most Bible translations-that not all saints will be dead at the rapture. And the rapture, of course, isn't the physical, visible return of Jesus.

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"NOT ALL" MEANS "NONE" in both 1 Cor. 15:51 and 1 John 2:19.

If you truly are familiar with the Greek usage in 1 Cor. 15:51, then you would know that absolutes, such as "all", and negatives, such as "none" are rather slippery to translate in connection to their referents, and can easily result in misunderstanding and mistranslations. The context of 1 Cor. 15:51 goes on to describe the process of the "change" to the incorruptible, only for the bodies of the DEAD saints - not a translation-type change for the living. And you are totally ignoring the rule found in Hebrews 9:27 that "it is appointed unto men ONCE TO DIE, and after that the judgment". If a translation-type of change was to be expected at the rapture for all the living saints on earth, this would make Hebrews 9:27 into a lie. Are you prepared to explain this contradiction scripturally?

eclipsenow said:

But what if we go back and investigate what is being quoted here, in context? Daniel 7:
"3 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed."

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I must admit that I was pleased to see this posted as I had been discussing the ascension and when I saw your post, it just became clear that this is the ascension.
A cloud received Him as He ascends into heaven to the Ancient of Days and takes His throne at the right hand of God where all power and authority both in heaven and on earth are given Him. And from here He pours out His Spirit on all flesh in the last days.

Spiritual Jew said:

I don't believe those who were resurrected, as recorded in Matthew 27:52-53, were resurrected unto bodily immortality. Paul taught that the order of resurrections unto bodily immortality was Christ first and then those who belong to Christ at His second coming (1 Cor 15:22-23).

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Whether you believe the Matthew 27 resurrected saints were a sort of "fake" resurrection or not makes no difference. You have a rather weak interpretation of Christ's ability to raise the dead. Once resurrected to life by the Holy Spirit, ALWAYS resurrected to life. A bodily resurrection for the saints is never forfeited, and neither is a spiritual resurrection. One is a reflection of the other.

And 1 Cor. 15:20 & 23 does not say that Christ was the "FIRST" to rise from the dead. We know that many preceded Christ in this, three in the OT, and some raised by Christ Himself and the disciples individually during His earthly ministry. It says that Christ was the "Firstfruits" (PLURAL) - the same as the 144,000 "Firstfruits" (PLURAL) raised with Him. Don't confuse Christ's unique "FIRST-begotten" and "FIRST-born" title with Christ also being called the "FIRST-fruits". One is a singular, unique title, and the other is a plural, group resurrection harvest.

Christ was the "FIRST-born" one out of that "FIRST-fruits" resurrection group event who ascended to the Father on His resurrection day. No one had ever done that before in history until then.

3 Resurrections said:

Your presumption (unbacked by scripture) is that the "short time" of Revelation 12:12 is at the end of 6,000 years. That's not what Rev. 12:12 says. John wrote to THAT generation, warning them, "Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! For the devil IS COME DOWN UNTO YOU, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a SHORT TIME." If we pay attention to the present tense in which John was writing, then the devil RIGHT THEN in John's days was operating on earth, knowing that he had only THAT SHORT TIME left in which to operate. Are you saying that in John's days of writing Revelation that almost 6,000 years of history had elapsed? This is an honest question, since there are many and varied theories as to how long mankind has inhabited the planet, and I don't know where you stand on this issue.

As for the "little season" following the millennium in Rev. 20:3 when Satan is loosed, (which you do not agree is the same as the "short time" of Rev. 12:12), we are told quite plainly in Revelation 20:5 that the millennium is "finished", at the same time when the "First Resurrection" occurred, with the "remnant of the dead" coming to life again.

Christ and the Matthew 27 Firstfruits saints (aka the "remnant") composed the "FIRST resurrection" in AD 33. That means the "little season" of Satan being loosed (JUST AFTER the millennium had expired) BEGAN just after the AD 33 First resurrection occurred.

Of course, all this is dependent upon correctly identifying what the "FIRST resurrection" is. If you can't recognize that Christ raising Himself and the Matthew 27 saints from the dead was the event called the "FIRST resurrection", then we are at an impasse.

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The first resurrection is a type, not a when. We are at an impasse. The Two types of reality is physical and spiritual. To God and in the beginning there was no separation of the physical and spiritual. Both existed together in harmony.

It is Adam's offspring who are "in the dark", both physically and spiritually. But the first birth. First death, and first resurrection deal with the physical. One has to be born physically or they do not even exist, so the physical comes first.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, that which is born of the spirit is spirit. This body is in the image of Adam born in sin with a sin nature. This body has to be left behind as death, dust, and decay. The permanent body God originally gave to Adam is given at the first resurrection when the soul leaves this body for the permanent incorruptible body in Paradise. Made by God, not through the genetic copying of DNA from Adam. Blessed are all those from the Cross, and ongoing, until the Second Coming, with this first resurrection. The Second Death can never be a reality for them at that point. Those is Paradise cannot rebel and turn from God. They are permanently set with a physical body.

Those who died in faith prior to the Cross had to wait for that physical, first resurrection in Abraham's bosom. At the Cross they bodily were raised and ascended with Christ right after Jesus told Mary, He was about to ascend. That was the first "rapture", that Paul declared as "Christ the firsfruits". They are now sitting in Paradise enjoying their physical home. 2 Corinthians 5.

The resurrection in Revelation 20:4 is not the same one at the Cross. It is not even a rapture to Paradise. It is prior to the 1000 years, because it clearly states there is 1000 years between this first resurrection, and the GWT at the end of the 1000 years. It is physical to permanent incorruptible bodies because it is a first resurrection. Solely about the physical aspect of living.

From when Adam disobeyed God until now has been 5991 years. Satan unlocks the pit soon, in the 5th Trumpet. In the 7th Trumpet Satan and those loosed angels are kicked out of heaven. They only have 42 months left at that point. The time is short because 42 months compared to Satan working freely for 5991 years is definitely short.

At the end of those 42 months, those angels have been destroyed. Satan is then bound, and now we have the Sabbath Millennium, set aside without Satan, and sin, and death because of sin and decay. Those resurrected in Revelation 20:4 cannot die physically nor spiritually ever again. Their offspring can never die physically because of sin. They can, under the iron rod of Christ be sent to Death, which is permanent because of rebellion. Rebellion and disobedience will not be a means to allow sin back into the world. But neither will those in rebellion be allowed to live on earth, in disobedience. Instead of life being easy to sin and hard to obey, life will be easy to obey, but hard to rebel. That is why Satan is loosed at the end to give all who will, a chance to reject God freely. From the chapter, obviously many do act on their free will, and are consumed with fire by God in accordance with their choice.

No, the first century was not year 6000. It was year 4000. Adam's punishment was only for 6 days/millennia. That is why it is the end of life as we know it and Satan has only a short time. It is incredulous to think we should have been in the 7th Millennium 1900 years ago.

God gave 2000 years to the nations. 2000 years to the children of Abraham. 2000 years to a wild gentile branch grafted into the body of Christ. The Seals mark the end of the church. The Trumpets mark the end of Abraham's children through Isaac and Israel. The Thunders are the end of the Nations themselves. Those last 42 months are for the gleanings of who is left. Satan is in charge while those harvested are beheaded to avoid the mark, avoid worshipping and following Satan, and to remain in the Lamb's book of life.

3 Resurrections said:

That is NOT what the Revelation 1:7 verse says. It says that SPECIFICALLY or NAMELY "those who pierced Him" would be doing the mourning when they saw Christ return. And they would be composed of those "tribes of the earth" - Jewish tribes - which in God's estimation have not been a factor in the world ever since the AD 70 era burned up all their genealogical records. God intended the Jewish tribal lineages to go extinct after AD 70. Even Paul wrote that giving heed to "endless genealogies" was a vain thing, and should be avoided in those days. Meaning this prophecy in Revelation 1:7 had to have been fulfilled when there were still Jewish tribes around.

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Only one Roman centurion, and his men, pierced Jesus on the Cross. But every soul ever born to Adam pierced Him by their sin. This cannot be only charged to those Jews who brought Him to Pilate. So yes, all in Adam had to be physically born to physically see this Second Coming event.

3 Resurrections said:

And you are totally ignoring the rule found in Hebrews 9:27 that "it is appointed unto men ONCE TO DIE, and after that the judgment". If a translation-type of change was to be expected at the rapture for all the living saints on earth, this would make Hebrews 9:27 into a lie. Are you prepared to explain this contradiction scripturally?

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Yes.

This body has to die. The soul leaves this body and changes bodies.

This verse is put up in some church nurseries, as humorous, but more truthful than most people in their eschatology. This body is a dirty diaper. It has to come off and be disposed of.

This is an ongoing phenomenon. At the Second Coming, those alive and remain are the only "dead in Christ". They still have on a dead, dirty diaper. All in Paradise have not slept, and yes, they all have been changed. 2 Corinthians 5.

3 Resurrections said:

No one had ever done that before in history until then.

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Two people: Moses and Elijah.

In fact they did appear and then disappeared in front of 3 disciples who were a witness to that ability. That day's event was a foggy memory, because it was over and done before any had grasped the event fully.

Unless Moses and Elijah were translated through time, they went some place, instead of just some when. Now if you are going to claim some heavenly transportation ship and/or they did not do it on their own power, I would tend to agree. God could still move a human body up in the very same ascending format as Jesus ascended. So it would still be God doing it for them. But that would be the only difference.

robycop3 said:

It's common sense that if Jesus' return will be seen by those who pierced Him, along with everyone else that they'll see Him from hades, as those who pierced Him are long-dead.

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Where does the Bible say you can add to the Bible if it makes sense to you?

Timtofly said:

This body is a dirty diaper. It has to come off and be disposed of.

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That is Gnostic teaching, pure and simple.

"WHAT? Know ye not that your body is the Temple of the Holy Ghost, which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price..." God OWNS the bodies of the saints - living or dead - which are victims to the consequences of Adam's decision to sin, as well as our own decisions to sin, when we have used it as a vehicle to perform those sinful actions. God does NOT dispose of property that He has paid the price of His blood to purchase. God WILL renovate His own property after death, raising it into an incorruptible condition when it can stand in His presence and be "presented faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy." (Jude 24).

"PRECIOUS in the sight of the Lord is the death of His saints." To keep His promise to Adam, God MUST follow through with the death sentence because of sin, but in spite of that required justice, God still tenderly regards the dead bodies of the saints with "a desire to the work of His hands", as Job 14:15 told us.

Timtofly said:

Two people: Moses and Elijah.

In fact they did appear and then disappeared in front of 3 disciples who were a witness to that ability. That day's event was a foggy memory, because it was over and done before any had grasped the event fully.

Unless Moses and Elijah were translated through time, they went some place, instead of just some when. Now if you are going to claim some heavenly transportation ship and/or they did not do it on their own power, I would tend to agree. God could still move a human body up in the very same ascending format as Jesus ascended. So it would still be God doing it for them. But that would be the only difference.

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It is not possible for anyone to have ascended to heaven in a resurrected body form until Christ had made the way possible for them to do so by being the "Firstborn" and the "Firstbegotten" from the dead to do this on His resurrection day ascension. Until He was established as our high priest mediator in heaven, God would not have accepted anyone entering His presence without Christ's intervening blood sacrifice being first sprinkled on heaven's altar that morning in AD 33.

Even later on when the gospel of John was being written, John was still calling Jesus the "ONLY-begotten of the Father" in John 1:14. That still means that no one except Christ at that point had yet ascended to heaven in a resurrected body.

Having Moses and Elijah appear on the Mount of Transfiguration does not mean they had been in heaven standing in God's presence by that appearance on the mountain. If they had been raised from the dead by either Christ or His disciples sometime during Christ's earthly ministry, that does not mean they had yet ascended to heaven. Or this was simply a vision that the disciples were granted of the spirits of Moses and Elijah on that occasion. Like the spirit of Samuel that King Saul spoke with back in the OT.

We are told when the temple in heaven was finally opened to allow access for resurrected men to enter it. Revelation 15:8 says that "no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled." That was in AD 70 when the last, seventh plague had been poured out. The bodies of resurrected saints could then enter heaven's temple for the first time.

Timtofly said:

The first resurrection is a type, not a when

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The "First Resurrection" was most definitely a WHEN occurrence. It occurred WHEN the 1,000 years was FINISHED, according to Revelation 20:5, and WHEN the "remnant of the dead came to life" after that 1,000 years was finished. This isn't deep.